Baltimore Riots/Freddie Gray (8 Viewers)

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
That's not all there is to it though. For example it's a given that you have to learn to speak English these days. And because it is everywhere it is also pretty easy to learn. So as a European you tend to speak two languages at least with very little effort. Because half of my country speaks French, you also have to learn French at school, whether you like it or not. So through no real effort or intention of my own, I spoke three languages.

And then I learned Italian, because I liked it. So all in all I only learned one foreign language because of a deliberate choice (not counting Latin or Greek obviously as you can't really speak those).

EDIT: one last point though, you don't have to be a university student to learn a language.
Admittedly though, I had to say something as I too only speak two languages :D
 

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,342
Admittedly though, I had to say something as I too only speak two languages :D
I was pretty much joking with my original comment anyway. Though it certainly can be interesting to learn other languages (funny how you sometimes think differently in different languages) I can see why an American or any other native English speaker wouldn't bother. It requires a great deal of effort, especially if you have little experience with foreign languages, and the reward is minimal.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
I was pretty much joking with my original comment anyway. Though it certainly can be interesting to learn other languages (funny how you sometimes think differently in different languages) I can see why an American or any other native English speaker wouldn't bother. It requires a great deal of effort, especially if you have little experience with foreign languages, and the reward is minimal.
Yup, it pretty much is all about incentives. Not many people can afford to learn languages just for the sake of it, if they don't actually intend to use it for something practical. I had to learn English because the medium of instruction in higher education here is mostly English, it's the language of business too. I also was fortunate enough to have lived in Scotland for the first 7 years of my life, so that definitely helped.
 

Nzoric

Grazie Mirko
Jan 16, 2011
37,877
Granted if the government gives out cash, does it have the right to tell people how to spend it? The Libertarian in me says NO. But the tax payer in me is like "Geez man, can't you make better decisions?".
I can relate to this thought. A year or so there was a big media fuss about "lazy robert" in Denmark. He was on social help and accomodated his life to that amount of money simply because he didnt want to work. He spent his time at a local pub and made it look like he was having a good time doing so.

I landed on the conclusion that if you want to have a working sociaæ safety net you have to accept a lazy robert or two and focus on the people in need of said help. There will always be, regardless of how you rig the system, people who will take advantage of it - on both sides of the scale. What is hurting society more, the idiots on welfare who accomodate their living standards to it or the people at the very top who arent paying taxes in the country and who spend money buying political influence to stack more cheese?
 

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,126
It is this lie that angers people. Hard work might pay off. If you have money to begin with, choose the right field or are insanely lucky. A society that claims everything can be achieved through hard work lies to its citizens. If you are left broke and sick because of bad luck or because of who your parents are, it must sting when people insist it's your own damn fault for "being lazy".

This lie needs to stop. Fast.

Let's say for example you studied law. Everyone always told you law was an excellent choice. Don't worry about the debt, you'll more than make up for it. 150k a year at least, right? So you've worked your ass off, got awesome grades and finished law school. Now you find out the market is completely saturated, no one wants to offer you a job and you're left with a huge amount of debt. Essentially, you're worse off than you were before you ever started college. Then you read, again, that your hard work will pay off and that if you're poor, you're just lazy. Awesome.

And this is arguably what happens to some upper class people. Nevermind what happens when you start at the bottom.
That is no way a lie, I know many people who have left europe with little to no money and come here and worked their ass off to achieve a good life! The mentality of those people was never give up and sacrifice what is needed to get to that point. Unfortunately in some communities in the USA this mentality doesn't exist. They rather play the victim and make fast money, by selling drugs or living off welfare. Why put in the hard work when someone else will pay it or you can make triple what you make working with drugs. We can have all the dialogue we want, but unless they stop living by the 10 crack commandements and refocus on family and hard work it will not change in those areas. There are cities all over the US with this epidemic, Detroit, oakland. camden, chicago. These cities have gotten progressively worse since the civil rights movement not better
 

Nzoric

Grazie Mirko
Jan 16, 2011
37,877
That is no way a lie, I know many people who have left europe with little to no money and come here and worked their ass off to achieve a good life! The mentality of those people was never give up and sacrifice what is needed to get to that point. Unfortunately in some communities in the USA this mentality doesn't exist. They rather play the victim and make fast money, by selling drugs or living off welfare. Why put in the hard work when someone else will pay it or you can make triple what you make working with drugs. We can have all the dialogue we want, but unless they stop living by the 10 crack commandements and refocus on family and hard work it will not change in those areas. There are cities all over the US with this epidemic, Detroit, oakland. camden, chicago. These cities have gotten progressively worse since the civil rights movement not better
:lol:

You fucking cunt.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,342
Yes, I understand that many Americans have been completely brainwashed to believe that this is so. But fact is, a lot of things in life depend on sheer luck. Rags to riches stories are few and far between and even those that made it are still insanely lucky.

Look at Floyd Mayweather Jr. True rags to riches story right? Awful childhood, poor upbringing, now a billionaire boxer. Then again his father was a professional boxer too. So maybe, just maybe, Floyd was kind of lucky with his genes and maybe, just maybe he knew what he had to do to become great. It's not some random fat kid going pro. It's the highly talented son of a pro going pro.

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:lol:

You fucking cunt.
You underestimate how delusional a lot of Americans are about their own country. Don't get me wrong, I love the USA. But Americans seem to equate freedom with their own country and close their eyes for the lack of it.
 

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,126
Yes, I understand that many Americans have been completely brainwashed to believe that this is so. But fact is, a lot of things in life depend on sheer luck. Rags to riches stories are few and far between and even those that made it are still insanely lucky.

Look at Floyd Mayweather Jr. True rags to riches story right? Awful childhood, poor upbringing, now a billionaire boxer. Then again his father was a professional boxer too. So maybe, just maybe, Floyd was kind of lucky with his genes and maybe, just maybe he knew what he had to do to become great. It's not some random fat kid going pro. It's the highly talented son of a pro going pro.

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You underestimate how delusional a lot of Americans are about their own country. Don't get me wrong, I love the USA. But Americans seem to equate freedom with their own country and close their eyes for the lack of it.
I'm not saying riches my family is middle class and we came here poor, many families that we know and met here because of similar situations have made a good life for themselves and we came here in the 70"s so the reality is that mindset makes you who and what you are. Not circumstances
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,342
I'm not saying riches my family is middle class and we came here poor, many families that we know and met here because of similar situations have made a good life for themselves and we came here in the 70"s so the reality is that mindset makes you who and what you are. Not circumstances
Yeah. That's just not true. Take Holocaust survivors. They often had mental problems until they died. But I guess it's their mindset that caused it. If only they worked harder. Because true freedom lies in work, right?
 

Nzoric

Grazie Mirko
Jan 16, 2011
37,877
You underestimate how delusional a lot of Americans are about their own country. Don't get me wrong, I love the USA. But Americans seem to equate freedom with their own country and close their eyes for the lack of it.
I'm delusional about Denmark, too. But the least any person pretending to be intelligent can do is try to view the situation from a different perspective than exclusively your own.

The guy highlighted that the only positive thing about all this was the mother wooping her son who was out demonstrating/looting. Kind of sums up his approach to correcting behaviour. Once they're already a product of their circumstances it's crucial to start hitting them in order to make them understand.
 

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,126
Yeah. That's just not true. Take Holocaust survivors. They often had mental problems until they died. But I guess it's their mindset that caused it. If only they worked harder. Because true freedom lies in work, right?
you're comparing holocaust survivors to african americans ?? What in the hell man! Slavery was over 200 years ago, the civil rights movement 40-50 years ago! Every single person involved in those riots and that are struggling in these cities has nothing at all to do with slavery and has no residual effect from it and there are a minimal amount of people who are connected to the civil rights movement involved in these scenarios. This a systemic situation where the victim mentality is handed down by generations and the people almost become defeatist by nature. When does it become time to man up, take responsibility for not only you own actions, but your communities. When do communities decide, no more gangs, no more stupidity. That lady who slapped her son around, she gets it. The black men who lined up between the cops and the rioters they get it. Shit other communities like Harlem, NY got it and they changed from within the community to change the whole mindset and mentality. Now harlem is in resurgence.
Work is constructive and grows an ethic of responsibility and worth it something that a majority of the people in this area do not have

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I'm delusional about Denmark, too. But the least any person pretending to be intelligent can do is try to view the situation from a different perspective than exclusively your own.

The guy highlighted that the only positive thing about all this was the mother wooping her son who was out demonstrating/looting. Kind of sums up his approach to correcting behaviour. Once they're already a product of their circumstances it's crucial to start hitting them in order to make them understand.

you're statement is so ignorant it hurts! Parents need to discipline their children and if more did that in these scenarios, and more children where afraid of their parents, they wouldn't think that this rioting, looting, gang banging is an option
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,342
Work is constructive and grows an ethic of responsibility and worth it something that a majority of the people in this area do not have
I'm not comparing anything. I'm saying the American Dream is a lie, because more work does not equal better pay or better results. If it did, the guy who trained most would win the Olympic title. Yes, Usain Bolt trains hard. So do millions of others and they don't get the same results. For every hugely succesful software developer out there, there is someone who tried just as hard but didn't get the results. Hard work simply does not always pay off.

I'm glad that you see how work grows and ethic of responsibility. The Nazis would agree.

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you're statement is so ignorant it hurts! Parents need to discipline their children and if more did that in these scenarios, and more children where afraid of their parents, they wouldn't think that this rioting, looting, gang banging is an option
See? All this hard work and you still suck at spelling.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
There are multiple arguments for and against this, but curious how you'd express your thoughts in this context on:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/b...ality-is-costing-the-us-on-social-issues.html

Rewarding idleness isn't the answer. But you can't help but look at public policy and planning in this country and not think that with the erosion of decent-paying middle class jobs since the 1970s and 1980s, is there no one thinking "oh shit" about what some of the consequences would be for inaction?
Excellent article.

Shit like this is why it's only in the best interest of everyone in society to have low inequality and a functioning social security system. It's also not primarily not about the question of who's to blame, but what can be done to improve the situation, and if you don't change anything the next generations growing up in Baltimore, Compton, Ferguson, Detroit or whatever will only get worse.
 
OP
Hust

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #296
    For every guy that trains as hard as Usain Bolt that never becomes like Usain Bolt isn't limited to trying something different to gain success unless he limits himself to only doing what Usain Bolt does.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    I'm not comparing anything. I'm saying the American Dream is a lie, because more work does not equal better pay or better results. If it did, the guy who trained most would win the Olympic title. Yes, Usain Bolt trains hard. So do millions of others and they don't get the same results. For every hugely succesful software developer out there, there is someone who tried just as hard but didn't get the results. Hard work simply does not always pay off.

    I'm glad that you see how work grows and ethic of responsibility. The Nazis would agree.

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    See? All this hard work and you still suck at spelling.
    Btw, have you ever heard of the concepts of "deliberate practice" and the "10 thousand hour rule"? If you have, what do you think about them?

    While I don't necessarily agree with your bolded statement, as hard work alone is definitely not enough, but it seems to me that you're implying that genes and innate ability are what differentiate standout performers like Usain Bolt, and that's what I disagree with.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    39,342
    Btw, have you ever heard of the concepts of "deliberate practice" and the "10 thousand hour rule"? If you have, what do you think about them?

    While I don't necessarily agree with your bolded statement, as hard work alone is definitely not enough, but it seems to me that you're implying that genes and innate ability are what differentiate standout performers like Usain Bolt, and that's what I disagree with.
    I think that if you put 10 000 hours into something, you'll be very good at it. But not necessarily world class. If Bolt and I had the exact same training throughout our lives, he'd still beat me by a very long margin. He's simply better built than I am to be a sprinter.

    American society has us believe that all you need is hard work. And the downside of that is that if you are poor, you have yourself to blame. I'm saying that's not always the case.
     

    Ocelot

    Midnight Marauder
    Jul 13, 2013
    18,943
    Instead of relying on anecdotal evidence, there are hard facts and statistics about social mobility which prove that America is among the very bottom OECD countries in that regard.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    39,342
    For every guy that trains as hard as Usain Bolt that never becomes like Usain Bolt isn't limited to trying something different to gain success unless he limits himself to only doing what Usain Bolt does.
    If you're born with Down syndrome your chances of success in any field are pretty heavily compromised.
     

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