Ballon d'Or (11 Viewers)

[Osman]

Wtf, and now you question the standard of defending being higher back then? Are you for real? No offense, but how old are you? This makes zero sense.


Zero about nostalgia, especially about friggin defence. Its a fact the quality of defenders were substantially higher back then.

 

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[Pegi]

If we go by the old standards, it's going to be Jorginho. If we are going by the popularity it's Ronaldo or Messi. If we're going by who's actually the best, it changes everyday.

I'v never been big fan of voting based awards, especially in team sports. If anything, teams and their players could vote their player of the season at max and that's all about it.

 

[Strickland]

Wtf, and now you question the standard of defending being higher back then? Are you for real? No offense, but how old are you? This makes zero sense.


Zero about nostalgia, especially about friggin defence. Its a fact the quality of defenders were substantially higher back then.

How is that a fact? Less goals were scored? Or the attackers were superior to nowadays? Or is there another reason? I asked you once already and I'm asking again. Im 31 btw, been watching footie for ~2 decades.

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Either football itself in the 90ties and 00ies was played at a higher level or there is something tangible that proves that the level of defenders was higher back then (f.e. less goals were scored). And I doubt football has regressed, sounds illogical for such a big industry. Usually something only regresses when less and less people do it or there arent enough funds to support the best and it becomes a lost art, footie surely isnt one of those things.

 

[Bjerknes]

By the way, Van Dijk was horrible yesterday. He makes mistakes every single match I see him play for like the last two years now. Remove from all list and throw in trash plz.

 

[Orgut]

If we go by the old standards, it's going to be Jorginho. If we are going by the popularity it's Ronaldo or Messi. If we're going by who's actually the best, it changes everyday.

I'v never been big fan of voting based awards, especially in team sports. If anything, teams and their players could vote their player of the season at max and that's all about it.

I think the award should be given for "player of the season" and since we know thats not exactly the only factor in this award.
Also I agree about the whole voting thing. I`ll even say the player of the season (club level) is unneeded

 

[Luca]

The Canna/Chiello debate is really interesting and I just want to give my two cents on it too.

People have been saying the comparison is difficult to make because of the two different eras and the standards of defending which each entailed, but I just think that it is hard to compare the two different styles of defending that each have. T.Silva is definitely the most comparable active defender to Cannavaro in terms of style. With Cannavaro being the peak of that particular archetype in the anticipation, technical ability and the verve in transition.

We (I) wouldn’t necessarily link those attributes to Chiellini, who I think is primarily summed up more by his steely determination, strength and just pure immovability. Chiellini is 100% elevated (rightfully) for his determination and incredible professionalism over the years. I think I’m quite safe in saying that none of us would have foreseen that 2004 Chiellini would have lasted at such an immensely high level for so long, yet developed in such a way. For starters, he was initially a LB.

But they both play the same position and there would have to be a choice, just like a manager would have to make. And, imo, Cannavaro was definitely the better natural defender between the two. I think that he was better at stepping up and anticipating the ball than Chiellini (who is by no means lacking in ability at doing it). Cannavaro was just godly at that aspect and even some of his disadvantages such as his small stature did not hinder him much.

I really think that, had Cannavaro spent most of his time here as Chiellini, there wouldn’t be such a debate. Just in the same way that, had Nedved not been at Juve, people here wouldn’t rate him so much as a player (this is coming from someone who absolutely adores him as a player btw). We are all blind to our loyalties, and for sure Chiellini is bound to win that here.

Canna and Chiello both had incredible years at high levels winning a major international trophy as an inspirational defender and leader. Kudos to both.

I think Chiello is a huge Juve legend and to have got himself into that bracket of defender is a testament to himself. It’s insane how good he still is.

 

[Lapa]

Canna for me, all the way.

 

[ALC]

Chiello for me

 

[Strickland]

In regards to all the "Canna was unfortunate with his club choices, Chiellini has been lucky to stay at Juve for so long" argument I think people forget that we were mediocre under Ranieri, then hot garbage under Ferrara, Zaccheroni and del Neri. Yet throughout those years, before we ever saw him in a functional football team it was crystal clear to everyone that Giorgio is a brilliant, WC defender and he's part of the solution, not the problem.

 

[zizinho]

In regards to all the "Canna was unfortunate with his club choices, Chiellini has been lucky to stay at Juve for so long" argument I think people forget that we were mediocre under Ranieri, then hot garbage under Ferrara, Zaccheroni and del Neri. Yet throughout those years, before we ever saw him in a functional football team it was crystal clear to everyone that Giorgio is a brilliant, WC defender and he's part of the solution, not the problem.

Don't put Ranieri in the same sentence with those, we were never 7th and embarrassed in EL with him

 

[Strickland]

Don't put Ranieri in the same sentence with those, we were never 7th and embarrassed in EL with him

I think mediocre and hot garbage is a fine enough distinction there

 

[JuveJay]

In regards to all the "Canna was unfortunate with his club choices, Chiellini has been lucky to stay at Juve for so long" argument I think people forget that we were mediocre under Ranieri, then hot garbage under Ferrara, Zaccheroni and del Neri. Yet throughout those years, before we ever saw him in a functional football team it was crystal clear to everyone that Giorgio is a brilliant, WC defender and he's part of the solution, not the problem.

Tbh those two years after promotion were perfectly acceptable with the level of team we had. We only had two poor seasons.

 

[Bianconero81]

How is that a fact? Less goals were scored? Or the attackers were superior to nowadays? Or is there another reason? I asked you once already and I'm asking again. Im 31 btw, been watching footie for ~2 decades.

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Either football itself in the 90ties and 00ies was played at a higher level or there is something tangible that proves that the level of defenders was higher back then (f.e. less goals were scored). And I doubt football has regressed, sounds illogical for such a big industry. Usually something only regresses when less and less people do it or there arent enough funds to support the best and it becomes a lost art, footie surely isnt one of those things.

 

[Fred]

It's hard to explain.
The defenders I mentioned had an x-factor.

Everyone will agree that Benzema is a great and even a legendary CF right? But I say he is no super star, but Lewa is, Sheva was, Drogba was etc.

It's hard to explain, you just know it.

Maybe you think so. My opinion is that Benzema is a better striker and player than Drogba and Shevchenko.

Lewa is better than all those strikers you mentioned. I do not see much argument for Drogba being even close to Lewa. I think Benzema is better too.

With that being said, I think its an unfair comparison. Perhaps if Drogba and even more so Shevchenko were playing in this era, they probably would have been significantly better. I say that because I think sports science and players preparation and recovery has increased their longevity and given them an edge physically over previous generations. Look at how many players remain in their peak well into their thirties these days. That was unheard of in Sheva and Drogba's era. Back then it was commonly accepted that you lose a yard of pace, and the ability to play at such a high level week in week out.

But when you look at Benzema or Lewa now, they are in their mid thirties almost, and they are still delivering peak performance consistently. But that brings me again to question why are you so certain, that we all should just know that Benzema is less a player than Drogba or Shevchenko. At his age, both of them were not consistently the stars of a big team, and they have not accomplished what Benz has neither individually or collectively.

and please dont bring up Sheva's ballon dór. He would not have been close had he played in the era of those two freaks of nature Ronaldo and Messi.

 

[JuveJay]

So longevity is the key to being a legendary player?

 

[Fred]

So longevity is the key to being a legendary player?

If you play at a high level for longer than another player and thus contribute more during the course of your career to your teams success, I'd say that's a pretty robust measure.

Put it this way, if i gave you the choice between two players for Juve. One will give you 10-12 seasons of being a top player for your team. The other will give you 6-8, and by his 30's will already be going downhill. Their level at their best is comparable(we might disagree whose better at their prime for example, but its arguable). I think that's an easy pick.

Now if you believe Drogba and Shevchenko are so much better than Benzema, that even if he plays at close to his best level for much longer than them it won't matter, then thats a different case.

 

[JuveJay]

So Benzema is a bigger legend than say, R9?

 

[Fred]

So Benzema is a bigger legend than say, R9?

No I wouldn't say so. But that's why i added this:

" Now if you believe Drogba and Shevchenko are so much better than Benzema, that even if he plays at close to his best level for much longer than them it won't matter, then thats a different case. "

I think Ronaldo was a few levels above those players, he truly was something else. Do you really think Drogba or Sheva were so much better than Benz, that a few of their peak years would contribute so much more to their team's success than Benz ever did? I don't think so personally.

I think its about proportion. I love Henry for example, he is my favorite player of all time. But when its all said and done, I think Lewa did more than him. He contributed a lot more to his team's success.

I believe(and this is just a purely subjective hypothesis based on watching those two play) that if Henry was in this era, he might have been as good or better than Lewa. But as things stand right now, it would be really tough arguing Henry was over the course of his career a better player than Lewa.

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Let me add. All of this is very subjective. Football is a team sport. So to take individuals out and try to evaluate their impact on a team's performance is always going to be difficult. That will always be the case for any team sport, or any field that is based on a collective effort. There are just so many variables involved, most of them which will always be out of any one individual's control, that its impossible for it not to be completely subjective.

But one thing is for sure, players nowadays have much more longevity. I think we can all agree that all these 33-34 year olds playing at a world class level was not very common in previous generations. So my argument is that unless theres a huge difference in quality and performances between two players, how can you justify saying one is better than the other, when the latter gives you so many more seasons at a high level?

 

[JuveJay]

Yes I believe that a better player and a better career are two different things, or say a player plays at a 9/10 level for 15 years it doesn't make him better than a 10/10 player who did it for 8. Just my take on it. I wouldn't swap Ronaldo9 for any striker if you asked me to choose from the past 30 years. And I can appreciate what fabulous players Lewandowski is or Henry was. Also consider how many goals a player like Henry might score in this Bayern team if Lewandowski did not exist.

Now, for the sake of the original argument, I won't say that Cannavaro was a 10/10 player or comparable as the R9 of defenders, but I believe up until he was about 33/34 his career reached a level of talent that is higher than Chiellini has ever reached, and I say that also as a legend of this club who I love and admire as a footballer for what he has achieved. But the second point also contains bias. If I were to compare to other Italian DCs as I've done before then I put Nesta a slither above Cannavaro and Chiellini is on the next tier below. It's all very subjective but I can only judge on what I've seen, and these are the Italian defenders of my era watching football. The older guys will say there is a category above containing Baresi, Maldini, Scirea and maybe Bergomi, but you can only really judge that if you are 55 years old.

 

[Fred]

Yes I believe that a better player and a better career are two different things, or say a player plays at a 9/10 level for 15 years it doesn't make him better than a 10/10 player who did it for 8. Just my take on it. I wouldn't swap Ronaldo9 for any striker if you asked me to choose from the past 30 years. And I can appreciate what fabulous players Lewandowski is or Henry was. Also consider how many goals a player like Henry might score in this Bayern team if Lewandowski did not exist.

Now, for the sake of the original argument, I won't say that Cannavaro was a 10/10 player or comparable as the R9 of defenders, but I believe up until he was about 33/34 his career reached a level of talent that is higher than Chiellini has ever reached, and I say that also as a legend of this club who I love and admire as a footballer for what he has achieved. But the second point also contains bias. If I were to compare to other Italian DCs as I've done before then I put Nesta a slither above Cannavaro and Chiellini is on the next tier below. It's all very subjective but I can only judge on what I've seen, and these are the Italian defenders of my era watching football. The older guys will say there is a category above containing Baresi, Maldini, Scirea and maybe Bergomi, but you can only really judge that if you are 55 years old.

But that's the proportion I am talking about. Really depends where you draw the line and how highly you rate the players in question when they are at their best.

An example:
Many people(not sure if you agree) would say that Ronaldinho at his prime was as good as any player theyve seen. Lets compare him to Messi. I'd say its perfectly reasonable to say that Ronaldinho at his best was comparable or better than Messi. But imagine you are Barcelona, one player gives you 3-4 seasons of pure magic(of course with a weaker team than most of Messi's too) the other gives you machine like 12 seasons of consistency. Even if you believe Ronaldinho was so much better than Messi at his best, its hard to say he's a better player, because longevity usually also means that you help your team win more titles. and that we can agree is the ultimate goal of any football club.

and talking about subjectivity. At least when it comes to attackers, you have goals or maybe assists as a decent proxy measure. When it comes to defenders, especially central defenders it really is purely subjective. Though I would say as a central defender(not counting Maldini, his prime was at LB) Nesta is the best defender I have ever seen, in an era where defenders were not really ball playing or very technical, he truly stood out. Absolutely amazing defender, very intelligent, but also technically brilliant.

Between Canna and Chiellini, I would say Canna's peak was higher, I think for a period at Juve up until that world cup, he was playing at a different level. But he didn't do too well at Inter and he made a lot of mistakes at Real Madrid. So he's had quite a few not so great seasons. That levels the playing field a bit with Chiellini IMO.

An unpopular opinion in an Italian club forum, but even though I hate John Terry. I truly believe he was one of the best defenders I've seen too tbh.