Azzurri Thread (74 Viewers)

[Stephan]

I think the last euro quality already got worse tbh.

The whole finish 3rd and you get easier run to the semis or smth thing. You had one half with Spain, Italy, Germany, France and then Portugal, Wales, Belgium in the other half. And Portugal played against nobodies in their group (Hungary, Iceland).



Also historically there was that stat that in every 12 years some surprise happens. 92 Denmark, 04 Greece, 16 Portugal (well on the grand scheme of things doesnt look that bad but again, Ronaldoless Portugal beats France in Paris, lol).

 

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[pitbull]

Roque Júnior says hi. Its easy to say these things AFTER the tournaments.

Materazzi started for Italy 2006 (and literally everyone thought he was terrible player/liability), you had guys like Zaccardo on the bench (wait i just checked, Zaccardo started first two group games, Zambro was injured i think) , Grosso was a nobody Palermo player before the tournament. Barone, who, yeah exactly?

yeah, whole starting 11 doesn't have to be elite quality or even good quality players, you can have decent guys in good form, but it's not coincidence that teams winning WC's are overflowing with talent. you're really aren't trying yo say that 2006 Italy is comparable to this Italy?

 

[Stephan]

yeah, whole starting 11 doesn't have to be elite quality or even good quality players, you can have decent guys in good form, but it's not coincidence that teams winning WC's are overflowing with talent. you're really aren't trying yo say that 2006 Italy is comparable to this Italy?

There is also a certain nostalgia element. If Italy hadnt won that WC in 2006 some would say totally different things about that team.

I mean you could argue that there were plenty of nobodies there as well on the grand scheme of things, Pirlo and Gattuso were the only CL winners in XI (Nesta got injured and didnt play, Inzaghi only played like 1 or 2 games with sub apps, DP same). Many players of the same generation flopped at the euro 2004 when they didnt even advance from group. And history has shown that noone else won a CL of that generation afterwards who hadnt won it (Cannavaro never won it, Totti didnt, Toni didnt, Buffon hasnt as we unfortunately know). And more interestingly many of the juve core went on to have difficult times in other clubs and declined massively like Zambrotta, Cannavaro were never the same players imo after 2006 WC. Cannavaro should have retired from NT after euro 2008. Then you had guys like Gilardino and Toni who ended up journeymen footballers in terms of their club career.

 

[Seven]

There is also a certain nostalgia element. If Italy hadnt won that WC in 2006 some would say totally different things about that team.

I mean you could argue that there were plenty of nobodies there as well on the grand scheme of things, Pirlo and Gattuso were the only CL winners (Nesta got injured and didnt play). Many players of the same generation flopped at the euro 2004 when they didnt even advance from group.

Buffon, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Pirlo, Gattuso, Camoranesi, Totti, Del Piero, Inzaghi, ...

There was an awful lot of talent in that team.

 

[pitbull]

Buffon, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Pirlo, Gattuso, Camoranesi, Totti, Del Piero, Inzaghi, ...

There was an awful lot of talent in that team.

You forgot Toni and de Rossi, but yeah, that's great talent all over the pitch. current Italy cannot match up to that.

 

[Seven]

You forgot Toni and de Rossi, but yeah, that's great talent all over the pitch. current Italy cannot match up to that.

Italy today don't even have one player of the calibre of Del Piero, Totti or Pirlo. Never mind having all of them.

 

[JuveJay]

Nesta and De Rossi too. There was only really three weak players in the squad - Zaccardo, Barone and Amelia. Oddo was reliable, Iaquinta was quite a handful at the time, and Gilardino and Barzagli were young promise. Grosso and Materazzi ultimately played above and beyond their level in the tournament, the former especially, but Italy had 12 quality players and another half a dozen who stepped up.

Now Italy have maybe 6 quality players everyone fit - and it's not the same level of quality of 2006 - and then quite a large selection of 7 or 7.5/10 players.

Obviously it needs considering that two of the best Italians in the last 5 years, Buffon and Barzagli, who have been world class performers, would be 40 and 37 by the time the tournament starts. There is a generational issue here which is basically going to start in 2020 and will probably peak for Euro 2024 and WC 2026.

 

[Stephan]

You forgot Toni and de Rossi, but yeah, that's great talent all over the pitch. current Italy cannot match up to that.

De Rossi was a nobody young punk in 2006. Got himself sent off against USA and suspended till final.

Toni seems rather hyped by some here. His numbers for Italy are not great. 16 goals in 47 apps for Italy. Not great imo. Even if he scores loads in serie a over the years.

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Nesta and De Rossi too. There was only really three weak players in the squad - Zaccardo, Barone and Amelia. Oddo was reliable, Iaquinta was quite a handful at the time, and Gilardino and Barzagli were young promise. Grosso and Materazzi ultimately played above and beyond their level in the tournament, the former especially, but Italy had 12 quality players and another half a dozen who stepped up.

Now Italy have maybe 6 quality players everyone fit - and it's not the same level of quality of 2006 - and then quite a large selection of 7 or 7.5/10 players.

Obviously it needs considering that two of the best Italians in the last 5 years, Buffon and Barzagli, who have been world class performers, would be 40 and 37 by the time the tournament starts. There is a generational issue here which is basically going to start in 2020 and will probably peak for Euro 2024 and WC 2026.

Its interesting you say that. When Nesta got injured at the start of tournament i remember many people saying Italy is screwed cause Materazzi can be terrible. Also after De Rossi red card there was always the possibility that Materazzi would end up getting sent off given his history and nature. But he did play well in that tournament.




There is lot of nostalgia talking here. Again, many of the same players finished 3rd in the euro 2004 group.

And what does it matter if Nesta is WC when he got himself injured literally every tournament basically after 2000.

 

[Lapa]

Nesta and De Rossi too. There was only really three weak players in the squad - Zaccardo, Barone and Amelia. Oddo was reliable, Iaquinta was quite a handful at the time, and Gilardino and Barzagli were young promise. Grosso and Materazzi ultimately played above and beyond their level in the tournament, the former especially, but Italy had 12 quality players and another half a dozen who stepped up.

Now Italy have maybe 6 quality players everyone fit - and it's not the same level of quality of 2006 - and then quite a large selection of 7 or 7.5/10 players.

Obviously it needs considering that two of the best Italians in the last 5 years, Buffon and Barzagli, who have been world class performers, would be 40 and 37 by the time the tournament starts. There is a generational issue here which is basically going to start in 2020 and will probably peak for Euro 2024 and WC 2026.

Nobody wanted Barzagli near that squad.

De Rossi was a nobody young punk in 2006. Got himself sent off against USA and suspended till final.

Toni seems rather hyped by some here. His numbers for Italy are not great. 16 goals in 47 apps for Italy. Not great imo. Even if he scores loads in serie a over the years.

Very true. DR was a noob and Toni...well I've never rated that guy.

 

[Stephan]

Nobody wanted Barzagli near that squad.



Very true. DR was a noob and Toni...well I've never rated that guy.

Great point about Barzagli, he was ridiculed in the forums back then. Lucky to be picked, lucky to be wc, heck he was ridiculed when we signed him, check the first page of his thread here.

Again, all this nostalgia speaking. You could argue that many of the talent hadnt done anything outside of serie a for years. Pirlo and Gattuso aside. Cannavaro didnt win s--t in the grand scheme of things for example if you take calciopoli into consideration. Never played CL final, i think maybe one semi with Inter? Never did with Real Madrid either. After De Rossi got suspended Perrotta started. I dont think many people rate Perrotta here. And on the grand scheme of things Gila-Toni is not WC attack. Toni only scored against Ukraine that tournament. And his numbers for Italy in general are not great.

Italy won the 2006 with Buffon-Cannavaro-Pirlo-Gattuso and then Grosso emerging as a big moment player with that Germany game, winning pen against Australia and scoring the final pen in the shootout. Strong core there and Lippi good tactical plans and making smart subs. He really made some smart game changing subs that whole tournament.

 

[JuveJay]

Barzagli obviously wasn't the same player in those days but I think his selection was pretty normal, I don't remember 2005-06 being an awful one. He had gone past wonderkid stage and was at decent heading towards mediocre in those days.

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Cannavaro didnt win s--t in the grand scheme of things for example if you take calciopoli into consideration.

Why would you do that though?

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Nobody wanted Barzagli near that squad.

I wasn't talking about 2006.

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Also De Rossi was considered a future world class player in those days, he wasn't a nobody. Aged 23 he was already an important Serie A player.

 

[Stephan]

Barzagli obviously wasn't the same player in those days but I think his selection was pretty normal, I don't remember 2005-06 being an awful one. He had gone past wonderkid stage and was at decent heading towards mediocre in those days.

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Why would you do that though?

Lippi picked couple of Palermo players for that tournament, Barzagli, Grosso, Zaccardo, Barone.

I can do what i want. To me the players who left after 2006 are nobodies tbh. I get the financial and footballers professional side but i loved it when DP owned Cannavaro in 2008 CL games and Zambrotta flopped at Barcelona. It kind of proven that it was wrong for them to leave.

Also both Zambro and Canna initially said they would stay. At least if you go dont make such opposite statements.

Zlatan aside almost all the players who left never really got better or established themselves elsewhere. And none won CL for their new clubs.

And thats why my point stands with Cannavaro. Apart from WC he has won La liga with Real. Not much else.

 

[pitbull]

Lippi picked couple of Palermo players for that tournament, Barzagli, Grosso, Zaccardo, Barone.

I can do what i want. To me the players who left after 2006 are nobodies tbh. I get the financial and footballers professional side but i loved it when DP owned Cannavaro in 2008 CL games and Zambrotta flopped at Barcelona. It kind of proven that it was wrong for them to leave.

Also both Zambro and Canna initially said they would stay. At least if you go dont make such opposite statements.

Zlatan aside almost all the players who left never really got better or established themselves elsewhere. And none won CL for their new clubs.

And thats why my point stands with Cannavaro. Apart from WC he has won La liga with Real. Not much else.

Yeah,, its a. 23 player squad, off course it not full of only wc players. But is it considerably better than current Italy talent wise? No doubt, imo current Italy dont have what it takes to win WC with or without Ventura

 

[JuveJay]

I can do what i want.

And obviously what you want in this case is to shit on Juve to prove a point.

 

[zizinho]

Italy 2006 was obviously stronger than current one, but that comparison doesent matter when rating the current team. you have to compare the team to the competition they will be facing at the WC, not compare it to teams from the past. how many teams will be favorites ahead of Italy (im thinking Italy with the full squad so no one misses the competition due to injuries)? 3-4 probably. rest are either behind or on par.

its not fair to compare the current tem to Italy in 2006 because it was an amazing team, but you had other teams that are much stronger than right now. Brazil with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Cafu, R. Carlos etc, Argentina with Ayala, Sorin, Cambiasso, Mascherano, Aimar, Riquelme, Tevez, Crespo, Messi... England with Neville, A. Cole, Ferdinand, Terry, Campbell, Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves, Beckham, J. Cole, Rooney, Owne... France with Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira, Makelele, Thuram, Sagnol, Gallas, Evra, Ribery, Portugal with Ricardo, Ronaldo, Figo, Deco, Maniche, Carvalho, Pauleta.... the Czech with Nedved, Cech, Koller, Baros, Rosicky, Plasil, Jankulovski, Spain with Casillas, Marchena, Puyol, Ramos, Albelda, Baraja, Xavi, Iniesta, Alonso, Fabregas, Senna, Villa, Torres, Raul, Germany, with Lehmann, Klose, Ballack, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Podolski, Netherlands with van der Sar, van Bronchhorst, van Bommel, van der Vaart, Sneijder, Robben, van Nistelrooy, van Persie... 2006 had an enormous amount of talent spread on multiple teams, the WC ahead doesent compare to that

 

[DIECI]

yeah, whole starting 11 doesn't have to be elite quality or even good quality players, you can have decent guys in good form, but it's not coincidence that teams winning WC's are overflowing with talent. you're really aren't trying yo say that 2006 Italy is comparable to this Italy?

That generation for Italy was amazing and honestly under achieved greatly, they should have won more. We don't have anyone comperable to players like Del Piero, Totti, Cannavarao, Inzaghi, Vieri, Zambrotta, Nesta, Pirlo, Maldini, etc etc you can even lump in Baggio with that generation, eventhough ie was a bit older. Those were bonified world class talents that we are sorely missing today. But like Ziizinho said other teams were much stronger as well, today I don't think any current team is at the level of the ones he posted. To me the problem with Italy is menatilty. The national team, Serie A and the sport is a microcosm of the Italy society and government, a mess from top to bottom. Look at Germany, the have built something amazing through their academies, so amazing that they can send their under 21 team and win the confederation cup and could have probably qualified for the WC with that under 21 team if they wanted.

 

[Lapa]

I wasn't talking about 2006.

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Also De Rossi was considered a future world class player in those days, he wasn't a nobody. Aged 23 he was already an important Serie A player.

What year you were talking about then? I re-read your post and I still believe you were talking about -06.

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05-06 was Rossi's second "full" season for Roma (by full I mean that he played almost every match), does that really make one an important player really? I know that he was considered a future WC player, but at that time he pretty much was a noob. He rose to stardom a season after the WC.

EDIT: And Roma is shite, it doesn't take much to become a starter for them.

 

[MikeM]

I would like to see an Italian setup with Insigne, Verratti, Jorginho, Florenzi, Machisio, Bonucci, Bernardeschi and maybe Barella or some other technical CM. I think the Italian talent is a bit underrated because of what Ventura is doing. There are enough technical players that you could field a side that can hold the ball at least.

No doubt someone like Sarri would have enough at his disposal to make a team that holds the ball and scores I think.

It's just Ventura has completely lost the plot. Not even calling Jorginho and playing this football from the 80s.

 

[JuveJay]

What year you were talking about then? I re-read your post and I still believe you were talking about -06.

In that part was talking about the last 5 years and the end of this cycle with Barzagli and Buffon in regards to the Azzurri. In two years time it'll probably be the same with Chiellini. But it's not like Italy aren't in a better position than most, considering there is Donnarumma and Meret (I'm excluding others who also have high potential) coming through in goal, and Rugani, Caldara and Romagnoli in defence. Bonucci's presence will probably see the team go to a 3-man defence again at some point.

I think Fergie at United was massively keen (should that be Keane) on De Rossi at the time as a replacement for the mental Irishman. Obviously he wasn't world class and maybe never quite reached that level but he was regarded higher than Gagliardini is now, for example. I'd say it was 2-3 years later when he became considerably famous.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

I'm not saying France doesn't have problems, I'm saying they don't have a lot of problems Both Italy and France have some stuff to figure out, but Deschamps definitely has more to work with compared to Ventura.

if ventura was manager of France he'd probably drop lacazette for some bench player from Reims just like he's picking a chievo player ahead of an inform zaza, hell even balotelli too and not giving Jorginho a call up is criminal right now and would still play 4-2- fucking 4 wherever he goes

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Nesta and De Rossi too. There was only really three weak players in the squad - Zaccardo, Barone and Amelia. Oddo was reliable, Iaquinta was quite a handful at the time, and Gilardino and Barzagli were young promise. Grosso and Materazzi ultimately played above and beyond their level in the tournament, the former especially, but Italy had 12 quality players and another half a dozen who stepped up.

Now Italy have maybe 6 quality players everyone fit - and it's not the same level of quality of 2006 - and then quite a large selection of 7 or 7.5/10 players.

Obviously it needs considering that two of the best Italians in the last 5 years, Buffon and Barzagli, who have been world class performers, would be 40 and 37 by the time the tournament starts. There is a generational issue here which is basically going to start in 2020 and will probably peak for Euro 2024 and WC 2026.

Simone fucking perotta 'nuff said