Any defensive midfielder? (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Togon
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I agree mostly with Ian.
I feel Gattuso-Davids analogy compares better because regardless of Davids skill both player's main attribute is to use their atheletic ability to cover the grounds and harass the oponents. While Tach has good defensive ability he doesnt cover as much ground as Gattuso hence nowhere near as influential.
Gatusso, IMO, is the one who supports the fantasy of Seedorf, Kaka, Pirlo, and co hence the most vital player in their midfield IMO.
Nonetheless I disagree that Pirlo is not a natural playmaker. I always thought Pirlo had Zidane-nesque attributes of great vision, passing, and improvisation while lacking work-rate, aggression, and ability to anticipate.
Nonetheless, he has improved dramatically on the defensive attrib utes and now I agree that he is now more suited to regista than fantasista that he was supposed to be. But that was not so clear at the beginning of transformation.
Anyway, I think Maresca can turn out to be our Pirlo. After all, he started out his career as regista and he has far greater defensive capability and work rate than Pirlo at this stage of career.
As for Veron, I think he would be an improvement over Appiah, Conte, and Tach, but there are better options around. And why buy another 30 year old when the main agenda for the team is to get younger?
While I admire the skill and talent of Veron, I do not think he is right person for our team.
I feel Gattuso-Davids analogy compares better because regardless of Davids skill both player's main attribute is to use their atheletic ability to cover the grounds and harass the oponents. While Tach has good defensive ability he doesnt cover as much ground as Gattuso hence nowhere near as influential.
Gatusso, IMO, is the one who supports the fantasy of Seedorf, Kaka, Pirlo, and co hence the most vital player in their midfield IMO.
Nonetheless I disagree that Pirlo is not a natural playmaker. I always thought Pirlo had Zidane-nesque attributes of great vision, passing, and improvisation while lacking work-rate, aggression, and ability to anticipate.
Nonetheless, he has improved dramatically on the defensive attrib utes and now I agree that he is now more suited to regista than fantasista that he was supposed to be. But that was not so clear at the beginning of transformation.
Anyway, I think Maresca can turn out to be our Pirlo. After all, he started out his career as regista and he has far greater defensive capability and work rate than Pirlo at this stage of career.
As for Veron, I think he would be an improvement over Appiah, Conte, and Tach, but there are better options around. And why buy another 30 year old when the main agenda for the team is to get younger?
While I admire the skill and talent of Veron, I do not think he is right person for our team.
Since I live in this hell hole we call America, I unfortunatly don't get to see Serie A and Juve matches very much. The American soccer channel Fox Sports World got rid of the rights to show Serie A matches 2 years ago in favor of bringing in The Bundesliga and the French League 1; absolute stupidity. So about these new talents such as Pirlo, I can only get my ideas from what I have read, and I have heard that Inter used Pirlo as an attacking midfielder, or playmaker. But if you say he never was a natural playmaker, which is different from what I heard, than I must believe you. But the little I have seen of Pirlo (about 6 games), he sure knows how to pass and create chances.
I have seen Gattuso play many a times, and I have not been impressed by him. You are right that he covers more ground than Tacchi, but Gattuso is no Davids, even I know that. Davids was so much better, escpecially in the ball handling department. I agree with you on Maresca, give him a central midfield position and he will work wonders.
About Veron, that was just to give the point that our midfield needs help in the creative dept. Maybe if Veron was available on a free I would get him, but not really. Thats why I said I'd rather have Rosicky.....
I can't wait to get out of here so I can watch the best League in the world, Serie A. Instead of the worthless Bundisliga; thanks a lot Fox Sports World.
I have seen Gattuso play many a times, and I have not been impressed by him. You are right that he covers more ground than Tacchi, but Gattuso is no Davids, even I know that. Davids was so much better, escpecially in the ball handling department. I agree with you on Maresca, give him a central midfield position and he will work wonders.
About Veron, that was just to give the point that our midfield needs help in the creative dept. Maybe if Veron was available on a free I would get him, but not really. Thats why I said I'd rather have Rosicky.....
I can't wait to get out of here so I can watch the best League in the world, Serie A. Instead of the worthless Bundisliga; thanks a lot Fox Sports World.
Compared to Gattuso in terms of ability, Davids is the superior player but unfortunately, Juve was only ever able to utilize his defensive (actually, more like athleticism) qualities, never his offensive capabilities. The pitbull would have been awesome if allowed a free role to do both but he's never gonna find that in Juve's system or the Serie A for that matter.
Pirlo is an interesting example. He IS indeed a fantasista. That was how he started in Brescia, languished for years in Inter before joining Milan. What he found in Milan though was the same story - the immediate prospect of dislodging Rui Costa and even Seedorf et al in the attacking scheme was always gonna be difficult.
I think Ancelotti proposed a compromise to him at that point - regular playing time (something he needs above all after wasting so much time in Inter) BUT in a new role as a CM. Pirlo, in his mid-20s, with his attacking instincts, technical style, physique and mindset already fixed, was never gonna cut it as an orthodox DM. However, he didn't have to unlearn and relearn completely - those qualities were adapted to re-define that role instead. Suit system to players, not the other way round. The system itself is a big factor. Milan has the technical cast in their squad to carry Pirlo. We don't, which is why Pirlo and even Maresca will most likely fail in our current setup. In contrast, even Gattuso looks like a world beater in Milan with all those technically-gifted players around him (Btw, I thoroughly enjoyed how the Deportivo midfield monkeyed Gattuso around and long for the day Juve will be able to do the same) IMHO, from the "team" standpoint, having the right complements are much more important than having intrinsic qualities to succeed in a given position. The same applies to Trez.
While it is true Milan might not be able to compare with us in terms of defensive coverage and recovery, they don't really have to if they don't lose possession and/or can keep them for hours. Another distinct advantage of their system is that it preserves the durability of players since they don't nearly have to expend as much energy as one like ours. That might explain why Maldini, Costacurta et al are still functional compared to Juve's veterans in Ferrara and especially Montero, who seems in accelerated decline. Coupled with the training regime, that could also explain our high turnover rate of players, drastic losses in form (Appiah and co.) and the ridiculous amount of injuries which plagues us no end.
Anyway, back to Pirlo, the position change was a huge challenge and after being trampled most notably by Nedved (2-1 win at the Delle Alpi last season), credit must be given to the player and those who persisted in the experiment. Given that Ancelotti was a master in the DM role himself, there are certain advantages to be gained when there's direct coaching from someone who's an expert in that area. By and large, it was a very good decision. No need to be overly envious though - Zambrotta's conversion to LB was a similar masterstroke by Lippi (on hindsight) The largest beneficiary of them all though is the Italian National Team.
To cap it all, I feel that having a clear gameplan and addressing problems as a whole (not simply direct 1-for-1 player changes) is the way to solve Juve's problems.
Pirlo is an interesting example. He IS indeed a fantasista. That was how he started in Brescia, languished for years in Inter before joining Milan. What he found in Milan though was the same story - the immediate prospect of dislodging Rui Costa and even Seedorf et al in the attacking scheme was always gonna be difficult.
I think Ancelotti proposed a compromise to him at that point - regular playing time (something he needs above all after wasting so much time in Inter) BUT in a new role as a CM. Pirlo, in his mid-20s, with his attacking instincts, technical style, physique and mindset already fixed, was never gonna cut it as an orthodox DM. However, he didn't have to unlearn and relearn completely - those qualities were adapted to re-define that role instead. Suit system to players, not the other way round. The system itself is a big factor. Milan has the technical cast in their squad to carry Pirlo. We don't, which is why Pirlo and even Maresca will most likely fail in our current setup. In contrast, even Gattuso looks like a world beater in Milan with all those technically-gifted players around him (Btw, I thoroughly enjoyed how the Deportivo midfield monkeyed Gattuso around and long for the day Juve will be able to do the same) IMHO, from the "team" standpoint, having the right complements are much more important than having intrinsic qualities to succeed in a given position. The same applies to Trez.
While it is true Milan might not be able to compare with us in terms of defensive coverage and recovery, they don't really have to if they don't lose possession and/or can keep them for hours. Another distinct advantage of their system is that it preserves the durability of players since they don't nearly have to expend as much energy as one like ours. That might explain why Maldini, Costacurta et al are still functional compared to Juve's veterans in Ferrara and especially Montero, who seems in accelerated decline. Coupled with the training regime, that could also explain our high turnover rate of players, drastic losses in form (Appiah and co.) and the ridiculous amount of injuries which plagues us no end.
Anyway, back to Pirlo, the position change was a huge challenge and after being trampled most notably by Nedved (2-1 win at the Delle Alpi last season), credit must be given to the player and those who persisted in the experiment. Given that Ancelotti was a master in the DM role himself, there are certain advantages to be gained when there's direct coaching from someone who's an expert in that area. By and large, it was a very good decision. No need to be overly envious though - Zambrotta's conversion to LB was a similar masterstroke by Lippi (on hindsight) The largest beneficiary of them all though is the Italian National Team.
To cap it all, I feel that having a clear gameplan and addressing problems as a whole (not simply direct 1-for-1 player changes) is the way to solve Juve's problems.
The whole post is decent, just one or two thoughts:
1 They seemed truely suffering in terms of phisicall fitness against Depor.
2 (imo) Maldini and Costacurta are still functional cause they partnered with
Nesta. When Nesta is out of form or injured Paolo or Billy cannot hold the Milan defence anymore (Depor)
3 Bad luck, psichological reasons are all part of the problem.
1 They seemed truely suffering in terms of phisicall fitness against Depor.
2 (imo) Maldini and Costacurta are still functional cause they partnered with
Nesta. When Nesta is out of form or injured Paolo or Billy cannot hold the Milan defence anymore (Depor)
3 Bad luck, psichological reasons are all part of the problem.
Slack that got be one of the best post I ever read from this board with exception being some interesting rumor Argentinian fellow posted back in Jan. :thumb:.
Articulate & right at the point though I still like to disagree with whether Depor deserve their on CL Semi over two legs (Mainly due to some commical lines-man in the first leg
).
Nonetheless, your point is valid, and certainly explains some of the success of so called lesser squads of Depor, Porto, and Monaco.
Skill level is never totally absolute, it is more quasi-absolute-relative which means that it differs significantly depending on the environment hence creating "right" team is critically to team's success.
Anyway as you have said we probably need to re-design our midfield because 1) Nedved could leave 2) We will certainly revamp our defense.
This means that midfield will have to be fundamentally re-created taking into account of defense and attack.
Milan's system requires two fullbacks to push forward and provide width; a classic example why midfield can never considered separately from the design of whole system.
This means that we should pick a player to build around - a players that could give us color and characteristics, and surround them with complementary players. (I know that you and & I will disagree whether Trez is fundamental to the team or not but kudos to him, I think he has been one of our better players this year).
Furthermore, I would like new coach *cough* Deschamp to come in this year not next or 2 years time so he can start from scratch and bring in some players that he wants not Lippi's men.
Anyway I do not think we can buy whole new set of midfielders which means that we may have to work with one or two of our projects and hope they improve cough* Appiah, or rediscover form, and complement them with class of straneri a la Rosicky & Aimar. Dont really know about the coaches with the exception of Ventrone, but it seems we need get new ones if what you are saying is correct.
Articulate & right at the point though I still like to disagree with whether Depor deserve their on CL Semi over two legs (Mainly due to some commical lines-man in the first leg
).Nonetheless, your point is valid, and certainly explains some of the success of so called lesser squads of Depor, Porto, and Monaco.
Skill level is never totally absolute, it is more quasi-absolute-relative which means that it differs significantly depending on the environment hence creating "right" team is critically to team's success.
Anyway as you have said we probably need to re-design our midfield because 1) Nedved could leave 2) We will certainly revamp our defense.
This means that midfield will have to be fundamentally re-created taking into account of defense and attack.
Milan's system requires two fullbacks to push forward and provide width; a classic example why midfield can never considered separately from the design of whole system.
This means that we should pick a player to build around - a players that could give us color and characteristics, and surround them with complementary players. (I know that you and & I will disagree whether Trez is fundamental to the team or not but kudos to him, I think he has been one of our better players this year
).Furthermore, I would like new coach *cough* Deschamp to come in this year not next or 2 years time so he can start from scratch and bring in some players that he wants not Lippi's men.
Anyway I do not think we can buy whole new set of midfielders which means that we may have to work with one or two of our projects and hope they improve cough* Appiah, or rediscover form, and complement them with class of straneri a la Rosicky & Aimar. Dont really know about the coaches with the exception of Ventrone, but it seems we need get new ones if what you are saying is correct.
God dammn....do you think that match with Lazio is important? I dont care if we are second or third....we are not first! We won onley one(lets call it a derby) derby game with Lazio and that was when the race for scudetto is decided. where was he in first match with Lazio? Where was he in two matches with Roma(worst performance I havent seen in my life),Inter,Milan? Where was he in CL finals when we needed the goal more than ever???? NOWHERE NOWHERE NOWHERE I watched the game with Lazio and I realized we have Bierhoff in our squad.....and I dont like that
And if you are satisfied with a battle for a second place....thats your satisfaction....not mine
And if you are satisfied with a battle for a second place....thats your satisfaction....not mine
Cool down m8
I think the match against Lazio was very important, there is a certain danger of falling to pieces, and it wont make it easier for the next season.
He was in the race for the best scorer when scudetto was decided last year and before. Thinking that he is to blame for this years perfomance is a thought based on the idea: the way of success is scoring more than conceed, which I think works nowhere (Real, Man City), and exspecially not in italy.
We had two decent cross against Lazio, the first one in the first minute (10 cm wide of the target) the second as you all know... Did you realized he was the lone juve player in the box?
btw
Sure the Cl final was lost couse his crappy play and he is the reason for our weak defence as for the unvisible midfield, for DP's injuries, for all the injuries, for DYO's and Miccolis bellow the acceptable performance, for Gigis mistakes, even for Neddys yellow card against Real, for not buying Kaká, for leting Edgar go, or for the lack of spectators in Delle Alpi, or the fog, the bad weather, global warming...
I Stick to David "Scapegoat" Trezequet!
:strong: (scapegoatman!)
I think the match against Lazio was very important, there is a certain danger of falling to pieces, and it wont make it easier for the next season.
He was in the race for the best scorer when scudetto was decided last year and before. Thinking that he is to blame for this years perfomance is a thought based on the idea: the way of success is scoring more than conceed, which I think works nowhere (Real, Man City), and exspecially not in italy.
We had two decent cross against Lazio, the first one in the first minute (10 cm wide of the target) the second as you all know... Did you realized he was the lone juve player in the box?
btw
Sure the Cl final was lost couse his crappy play and he is the reason for our weak defence as for the unvisible midfield, for DP's injuries, for all the injuries, for DYO's and Miccolis bellow the acceptable performance, for Gigis mistakes, even for Neddys yellow card against Real, for not buying Kaká, for leting Edgar go, or for the lack of spectators in Delle Alpi, or the fog, the bad weather, global warming...
I Stick to David "Scapegoat" Trezequet!
:strong: (scapegoatman!)
okay, what i meant was:
Your avatar is cleverly designed so that it looks like the man is a constant animation of a man running around and around.
In reality it's just a single animation of the man running around once, which gets looped over and over to give the illusion of continuity.
Hehe never mind mate, I figured it out; it's about a quarter of the way up on the right hand side
Your avatar is cleverly designed so that it looks like the man is a constant animation of a man running around and around.
In reality it's just a single animation of the man running around once, which gets looped over and over to give the illusion of continuity.
Hehe never mind mate, I figured it out; it's about a quarter of the way up on the right hand side
