Andrea Pirlo (97 Viewers)

[Robee]

First of all, that aggression is uncalled for. I don't know if he is a deliberate troll (I don't think so) but he provides some very much needed comic relief during these bad times.

And second, I have to admit there is at least some truth in what Robee is saying. Will there really be a difference if we change Pirlo with Agnelli's dog?

Again; you can disagree perfectly but see some middle ground. I'm totally with people saying we need a better coach but you fail to see that despite me saying it about 15 times now.

It's the same as saying you think Pep or Simeone would win us the CL with this squad. Because who needs better midfielders

We simply need both to be world class again. Too bad we won't fix both in one mercato.

 

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[Juliano13]

At this point winning the CL is the last thing on my mind. I am worried about another season with the same guys in charge. It could take many years to repair the damage they'll cause.

 

[Robee]

At this point winning the CL is the last thing on my mind. I am worried about another season with the same guys in charge. It could take many years to repair the damage they'll cause.

The main thing we should regain as an organisation is getting everyone on the same page again. Right now we're trying to sign expensive stars while we have no decent foundation and money, play academic football while we barely have any gifted ball players and so on. Since Beppe and Allegri left, everbody does it's own thing. Get in line with each other ffs...

 

[edgardavids2608]

Excellent - I didn’t misunderstand your post then. You are just absolutely clueless about football in general. There’s no point furthering this debate as when an adult debates with a child they will lose even though their reasoning, common sense and logic is superior - the child’s will and belief in their incorrect train of thought means they’ll continue to flog their dead horse despite being galaxies from reality.

So in your reality: Managers don’t make a difference, everyone gets the same levels of performance out of their players - we should appoint Andrea Agnelli’s pet dog Fido next as long as we throw money at the squad as a change in manager with the same players will only have a short term effect as statistically proven over the last century of professional football. Management also doesn’t matter in our own jobs so in my own experience where I’ve been lead by a poor and unskilled manager that’s just myth and make believe.

Right - got it. Thanks for your enlightening contribution to the forum.

To his point,
Coaches get success out of their systems and finding opponents weakness and exploiting it. Also covering your own weakness. Obviously coaches get different levels out of players but a coach with inferior players or players that dont fit the system cant do to much with it.

-You could make the argument that while conte gets a lot out of inferior players due to his rigid approach, it limits the ceiling quite a bit.
- Also someone like Klopp is very system based and not sure the success of some of his players if they happen to move on. (Mane and Salah)
- {Point being that coaches can matter a great deal but its not an end all be all and a great coach can fail(Ancelotti at Juve and Immediately succeed somewhere else.

Some Poeple on here are so binary that they cant see decent point for what they are

 

[sgjuveboy]

To his point,
Coaches get success out of their systems and finding opponents weakness and exploiting it. Also covering your own weakness. Obviously coaches get different levels out of players but a coach with inferior players or players that dont fit the system cant do to much with it.

-You could make the argument that while conte gets a lot out of inferior players due to his rigid approach, it limits the ceiling quite a bit.
- Also someone like Klopp is very system based and not sure the success of some of his players if they happen to move on. (Mane and Salah)
- {Point being that coaches can matter a great deal but its not an end all be all and a great coach can fail(Ancelotti at Juve and Immediately succeed somewhere else.

Some Poeple on here are so binary that they cant see decent point for what they are

Agree with you.

Most people on this forum are mostly delusional folks that still think Juve is headed the right direction.

Honestly, if you aren’t able to win ECL with CR7, you have no place in the top 30 clubs in the world.

 

[edgardavids2608]

Agree with you.

Most people on this forum are mostly delusional folks that still think Juve is headed the right direction.

Honestly, if you aren’t able to win ECL with CR7, you have no place in the top 30 clubs in the world.

Bit dramatic. Not sure of its bc of covid or what but getting Ronnie required a bit more investment other places that was neglected for 3 years

 

[Bjerknes]

Some Poeple on here are so binary that they cant see decent point for what they are

Agree, it's like there's no middle ground anymore.

Of course having a good manager is important. But if the very most important thing is a manager, then the best managers would get paid just as much or more than the best players. The highest paid manager at last check is Pep, someone half the forum absolutely hates for being overrated, ironically.

You can put Allegri in charge of Sassuolo and he won't win anything or even make the CL. Pirlo can't play the game for Arthur and Bentancur.

 

[edgardavids2608]

Excellent - I didn’t misunderstand your post then. You are just absolutely clueless about football in general. There’s no point furthering this debate as when an adult debates with a child they will lose even though their reasoning, common sense and logic is superior - the child’s will and belief in their incorrect train of thought means they’ll continue to flog their dead horse despite being galaxies from reality.

So in your reality: Managers don’t make a difference, everyone gets the same levels of performance out of their players - we should appoint Andrea Agnelli’s pet dog Fido next as long as we throw money at the squad as a change in manager with the same players will only have a short term effect as statistically proven over the last century of professional football. Management also doesn’t matter in our own jobs so in my own experience where I’ve been lead by a poor and unskilled manager that’s just myth and make believe.

Right - got it. Thanks for your enlightening contribution to the forum.

Thats the one part where you are probably correct. Its mostly in your head to cover up for your massive ego and lack of personal performance. But thats why youre not the manager I suppose

 

[il brutto]

Thats the one part where you are probably correct. Its mostly in your head to cover up for your massive ego and lack of personal performance. But thats why youre not the manager I suppose

Another competitor for the "nicest guy on the forum" award?

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Agree, it's like there's no middle ground anymore.

Of course having a good manager is important. But if the very most important thing is a manager, then the best managers would get paid just as much or more than the best players. The highest paid manager at last check is Pep, someone half the forum absolutely hates for being overrated, ironically.

Coaches don't have the marketability of the absolute top players so it's pretty natural that guys like Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar are on another stratosphere wage wise. The group of players that makes more money than the likes of Simeone and Pep is still pretty small though.

You can put Allegri in charge of Sassuolo and he won't win anything or even make the CL. Pirlo can't play the game for Arthur and Bentancur.

Is this what you call "middle ground"?

 

[Juliano13]

Agree, it's like there's no middle ground anymore.

Of course having a good manager is important. But if the very most important thing is a manager, then the best managers would get paid just as much or more than the best players. The highest paid manager at last check is Pep, someone half the forum absolutely hates for being overrated, ironically.

You can put Allegri in charge of Sassuolo and he won't win anything or even make the CL. Pirlo can't play the game for Arthur and Bentancur.

1. The salaries of the best managers have grown significantly in the last two decades and now are not that far from the salaries of the top players. There are some teams that have their manager as their top or near top paid employee. That was never the case 20-30 years ago. Which means that people are starting to understand the difference that a good manager can make.

2. There are still other reasons why players are paid more than coaches. They bring more commercial value to the team in terms of shirt sales, fans and so on. Kids look up to players not coaches. But that has nothing to do with difference a coach vs a player can do on sporting results.

3. Nobody in their right mind would say the coach is more important than the entire squad or the starting 11. Obviously not. But I think he is more important than any single player. There are many average coaches that make no difference from one another but the same goes for most players. It's just my opinion that upgrading the coach from average to world class will make a bigger difference than upgrading one position on the field. And the impact gets bigger with time as the coach can implement his ideas.

To look at your example, Allegri probably wouldn't win any trophies with Sassuolo but neither would they win anything with Ronaldo or Messi. I would say that Allegri would have a bigger positive impact on their results than just Ronaldo.
That's why I found it ridiculous that people thought that getting Ronaldo would suddenly guarantee us a CL win.

 

[Strickland]

Agree, it's like there's no middle ground anymore.

Of course having a good manager is important. But if the very most important thing is a manager, then the best managers would get paid just as much or more than the best players. The highest paid manager at last check is Pep, someone half the forum absolutely hates for being overrated, ironically.

You can put Allegri in charge of Sassuolo and he won't win anything or even make the CL. Pirlo can't play the game for Arthur and Bentancur.

Importance isn't the only factor. Standard IT jobs isn't a more important profession than a policeman f.e., but they usually are paid more.

The supply of coaches is pretty much endless, at any given point there are at least a couple of WC or great coaches available as free agents and tens of very good ones and in the end you only need one of those, it's a brutal profession. It's far from the same market as free agent players, a player equivalent of Allegri would've been snapped up the moment he became available and probably given a 100% payrise.

 

[Mokku]

Atalanta got rid of Papu Gomez rather than Gasperini, he was their best player and talisman. I guess its easier to find another Papu than a Gasperini.

 

[Bjerknes]

Another competitor for the "nicest guy on the forum" award?

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Coaches don't have the marketability of the absolute top players so it's pretty natural that guys like Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar are on another stratosphere wage wise. The group of players that makes more money than the likes of Simeone and Pep is still pretty small though.


Is this what you call "middle ground"?

Sassuolo is like 20 points out of CL territory. They have some decent players and maybe Allegri would get more points, but he’s not a miracle worker. When he was here we had a great defense that played together for several years and an awesome midfield early on. If we had Sassuolo’s players we wouldn’t have won anything either. I think this is pretty middle ground.

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1. The salaries of the best managers have grown significantly in the last two decades and now are not that far from the salaries of the top players. There are some teams that have their manager as their top or near top paid employee. That was never the case 20-30 years ago. Which means that people are starting to understand the difference that a good manager can make.

2. There are still other reasons why players are paid more than coaches. They bring more commercial value to the team in terms of shirt sales, fans and so on. Kids look up to players not coaches. But that has nothing to do with difference a coach vs a player can do on sporting results.

3. Nobody in their right mind would say the coach is more important than the entire squad or the starting 11. Obviously not. But I think he is more important than any single player. There are many average coaches that make no difference from one another but the same goes for most players. It's just my opinion that upgrading the coach from average to world class will make a bigger difference than upgrading one position on the field. And the impact gets bigger with time as the coach can implement his ideas.

To look at your example, Allegri probably wouldn't win any trophies with Sassuolo but neither would they win anything with Ronaldo or Messi. I would say that Allegri would have a bigger positive impact on their results than just Ronaldo.
That's why I found it ridiculous that people thought that getting Ronaldo would suddenly guarantee us a CL win.

Are you saying you would rather have Allegri than Messi or Ronaldo? How many games have they won by themselves?

This is silly.

 

[il brutto]

Sassuolo is like 20 points out of CL territory. They have some decent players and maybe Allegri would get more points, but he’s not a miracle worker. When he was here we had a great defense that played together for several years and an awesome midfield early on. If we had Sassuolo’s players we wouldn’t have won anything either. I think this is pretty middle ground.

My point was that your criteria for what would be perceived as a coach having a positive impact at Sassuolo is not the "middle ground". For Sassuolo EL would be a huge achievement, talking about Scudetto and CL qualification is a bit too much.

 

[Juliano13]

Sassuolo is like 20 points out of CL territory. They have some decent players and maybe Allegri would get more points, but he’s not a miracle worker. When he was here we had a great defense that played together for several years and an awesome midfield early on. If we had Sassuolo’s players we wouldn’t have won anything either. I think this is pretty middle ground.

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Are you saying you would rather have Allegri than Messi or Ronaldo? How many games have they won by themselves?

This is silly.

I'd rather have Allegri instead of Pirlo and no Ronaldo than Ronaldo and Pirlo. That's fairly obvious.

Actually I would get rid of Ronaldo at the end of the season but replace him with any other player and the answer doesn't change.

 

[Xperd]

Sassuolo is like 20 points out of CL territory. They have some decent players and maybe Allegri would get more points, but he’s not a miracle worker. When he was here we had a great defense that played together for several years and an awesome midfield early on. If we had Sassuolo’s players we wouldn’t have won anything either.

Let's look at a more relevant example.

Where were Atalanta before Gasperini? What success did they achieve prior to him taking over?

And to your point about coaches not being as important since they aren't paid highly enough as players, Conte is the second highest paid individual in Serie A behind only Ronaldo. Only few players(mostly the marketable athletes) have a higher pay than the likes of Pep and Simeone. This is just the cream of the crop.

Very often, in lower level leagues, you'll find managers being the highly paid individuals in the entire club. The market for coaches has changed.

Unless you are super rich with super stacked squads, a qualified manager would be by far the most important entity at the club.

Juventus is somewhere in the middle. Neither we are super stacked nor we are super depleted to the point that we need a manager to work miracles. This Juve is in transition and requires a rebuild hence it's a far safer option to go through the process with a qualified manager than with a rookie coach who looks completely out of his depth.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

The only Italian coach we should be considering is mancini

 

[Ventus]

The only Italian coach we should be considering is mancini

He has a terrible record in the CL. I would rather give Ancelotti another chance than Mancini.

 

[Robee]

Let's look at a more relevant example.

Where were Atalanta before Gasperini? What success did they achieve prior to him taking over?

And to your point about coaches not being as important since they aren't paid highly enough as players, Conte is the second highest paid individual in Serie A behind only Ronaldo. Only few players(mostly the marketable athletes) have a higher pay than the likes of Pep and Simeone. This is just the cream of the crop.

Very often, in lower level leagues, you'll find managers being the highly paid individuals in the entire club. The market for coaches has changed.

Unless you are super rich with super stacked squads, a qualified manager would be by far the most important entity at the club.

Juventus is somewhere in the middle. Neither we are super stacked nor we are super depleted to the point that we need a manager to work miracles. This Juve is in transition and requires a rebuild hence it's a far safer option to go through the process with a qualified manager than with a rookie coach who looks completely out of his depth.

Correlation or timing isn't the same as causation. What has Gasp done besides Atalanta? At Inter for example?

But Atalanta and Gasp are a good example of how giving your coach time and the players he needs, can bear some fruits instead of changing every year. With or without Pirlo, whatever choice we make; we must figure out what we actually want instead of trying 5 directions at the same time.

 

[Strickland]

Correlation or timing isn't the same as causation. What has Gasp done besides Atalanta? At Inter for example?

But Atalanta and Gasp are a good example of how giving your coach time and the players he needs, can bear some fruits instead of changing every year. With or without Pirlo, whatever choice we make; we must figure out what we actually want instead of trying 5 directions at the same time.

Yup, the longer we go on changing coaches every year, the more miserable we'll become, we need to choose a long-term one and stick with our choice.

However, imo Pirlo isn't the one, if he stays I expect him to do similarly or even worse in his 2nd season.