American NFL Football (93 Viewers)

[acmilan]

As I have mentioned already, the QB position is, and should be under the current rules, evaluated differently than any other position in the NFL. None of those prospects you mentioned, as "elite" as they may be in this year's pool of talent, will really change anything for a franchise without a starting-level QB. And that's assuming the Tunsils and Ramseys and Buckner's and Elliots of the world actually do pan-out, as projected, which is a pretty big if, in and of itself.

When it comes to Wentz/Goff, I am not saying the Rams and Eagles should have traded for them just because they are the top 2 QBs in this draft. I am saying they have the right foundation/make-up, in general (average sample over the last 5 drafts), to make it worth taking that risk.

 

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[Post Ironic]

coming form a fan of a team with A-Rod as their QB

You mean former super bowl mvp A-Rod? 2 time league mvp A-Rod? A-Rod who has won as many superbowls as any QB in the league since becoming a starter in 2008-09 (No one has won more than 1 in that period)? A-Rod who has taken his team to the playoffs 7 straight years? That fellow?

Yeah, Goff and Wentz are really like A-Rod.

This guy.

 

[KB824]

Do the Browns have a starting level QB on their roster right now?

If they don't feel that RGIII is starter material, then why make that kind of trade knowing full well that Goff or Wentz won't be there now at 8?

The fact that the Browns, who A) desperately need a face of the franchise QB, and B) have a head coach that would be a QB'S best friend, willingly made this trade, is a very telling sign.

If Hue Jackson isn't convinced about either one of these two, then that should have sounded the alarm

 

[acmilan]

And the happiest person in the draft is Paxton Lynch, because now there is a real market for him.

I think he was gonna go in the 1st round anyway but the two top picks being at QB certainly raises his stock even further.

I like Lynch's potential and all but I think it would be best for him to get an Osweiler-type of treatment and sit out his first 2 years; don't think he will be ready for a while. Chances are he will get drafted in the 2nd half of the round, which would be good for him.

Goff I think is the most ready-to-start of the 3, as long as the team that drafts him gives him a slow intro to NFL offensive scheme by mixing in elements from his college system (e.g. the way the Titans approached Mariotta's development last year). And he's gonna need protection and weapons, of course, even more so than any established NFL QB, which Mariotta didn't have last year, btw.

Wentz I think has the higher ceiling but will still need the approach I mentioned above ... and even then, I think it would be best if he sat out his first year altogether ... or at least the first 10-12 games or so before he's labeled "full-time starter".

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You mean former super bowl mvp A-Rod? 2 time league mvp A-Rod? A-Rod who has won as many superbowls as any QB in the league since becoming a starter in 2008-09 (No one has won more than 1 in that period)? A-Rod who has taken his team to the playoffs 7 straight years? That fellow?

Yeah, Goff and Wentz are really like A-Rod.

This guy.

Good thing you are pretty, hey

I meant that in the sense that it's easy to criticize and laugh at other teams' desperation to find a QB when your team already has a great one, dumb ass ...

 

[KB824]

He was going in the first, but might now be going in the top.10, which is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. And I work in the mortgage industry. Stupid things happen all the time

 

[acmilan]

He was going in the first, but might now be going in the top.10, which is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. And I work in the mortgage industry. Stupid things happen all the time

Unless the team that takes him in top 10 plans to sit him out for a while (e.g. a couple of years), I'd agree - that would be an unnecessary risk. I think a good landing spot for him would be Pittsburgh - by the time they pick, the "must-have" level of prospects this year would/should be off the board already, might as well start thinking about looking for Big Ben's replacement a few years down the road (e.g. Packers taking A-rod in '05).

Now, I think Connor Cook may have solidified his chances to go in the 1st too. Possibly the Broncos or Dallas trading up from 2nd round back in 1st to take him.

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Do the Browns have a starting level QB on their roster right now?

If they don't feel that RGIII is starter material, then why make that kind of trade knowing full well that Goff or Wentz won't be there now at 8?

The fact that the Browns, who A) desperately need a face of the franchise QB, and B) have a head coach that would be a QB'S best friend, willingly made this trade, is a very telling sign.

If Hue Jackson isn't convinced about either one of these two, then that should have sounded the alarm

I don't think they do. But guess what, they are the Browns ...

It may be that they feel RG3 is their new QB, otherwise moving down would be a very ... Browns thing to do.

And yes, it could mean they don't particularly love either one of these two prospects and have decided to wait for the new Luck, who should be up for grabs in a bout 15 years time, on average ... another very Browns thing to do

Or, my best guess, they have taken up the "moneyball" approach to building their roster and RG3 is a good-enough of a place-holder, for now, allowing them to focus on improving other areas of the roster (and they have a ton of needs, btw).

But most importantly, please tell me you didn't just use the Browns actions as "proof" that Wentz and Goff suck ... It's the freakin' Browns, mate

As for Hue Jackson, we don't really know how much of say he has in the whole process and while I think he is a good coach, I don't have enough info on him to judge him as a talent evaluator.

 

[Post Ironic]

I think he was gonna go in the 1st round anyway but the two top picks being at QB certainly raises his stock even further.

I like Lynch's potential and all but I think it would be best for him to get an Osweiler-type of treatment and sit out his first 2 years; don't think he will be ready for a while. Chances are he will get drafted in the 2nd half of the round, which would be good for him.

Goff I think is the most ready-to-start of the 3, as long as the team that drafts him gives him a slow intro to NFL offensive scheme by mixing in elements from his college system (e.g. the way the Titans approached Mariotta's development last year). And he's gonna need protection and weapons, of course, even more so than any established NFL QB, which Mariotta didn't have last year, btw.

Wentz I think has the higher ceiling but will still need the approach I mentioned above ... and even then, I think it would be best if he sat out his first year altogether ... or at least the first 10-12 games or so before he's labeled "full-time starter".

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Good thing you are pretty, hey

I meant that in the sense that it's easy to criticize and laugh at other teams' desperation to find a QB when your team already has a great one, dumb ass ...

I feel like a dumb ass now. Thanks. I'm so used to you bashing Rodgers, that I just automatically go into bunker mode... Who knew my bunker was more of a maginot line.

P.S. I understand the desperation of the Eagles and Rams for a QB... I'm just not sure these are teams that can offer the "safe" kind of environment these two QBs look to need in order to develop.

The Rams I'd say have the better environment, with a pretty darn good defense, and a young superstar RB... Don't know much about their o-line though, is pass pro a strength? I mean Goff looks like he could use at least a break in year, and Wentz should not be a starter for minimum 1 year imo. Do these 2 teams have the QBs to provide mentorship, or to start if they are not deemed ready for Day 1?

 

[ALC]

It's not.m a great trade but like acmilan said, you have to go for it at one point

 

[acmilan]

I feel like a dumb ass now. Thanks. I'm so used to you bashing Rodgers, that I just automatically go into bunker mode... Who knew my bunker was more of a maginot line.

P.S. I understand the desperation of the Eagles and Rams for a QB... I'm just not sure these are teams that can offer the "safe" kind of environment these two QBs look to need in order to develop.

The Rams I'd say have the better environment, with a pretty darn good defense, and a young superstar RB... Don't know much about their o-line though, is pass pro a strength? I mean Goff looks like he could use at least a break in year, and Wentz should not be a starter for minimum 1 year imo. Do these 2 teams have the QBs to provide mentorship, or to start if they are not deemed ready for Day 1?

Well, average/bad franchises are always likely to get a step, or ten, in the process wrong. Either one of those two teams could well evaluate their new QB correctly and still fail to develop him into a proper starter. But that's part of the business, I guess.

I'd say the Rams OL-ine is an average one, at best. Not particularly good either way. Their new QB will need a weapon, or two or three to throw to, as well. Nothing they can't fix over the next couple of years thru FA-cy and the draft, if they play their cards right, imo.

I think the bigger concern is if they have the right QB-coach and OC in place, as the Rams have kind of had troubles in that department lately, which is not good news if you are gonna be developing a shiny new QB.

I personally see Goff as this years' Mariotta - not ready for the NFL scheme-wise but could start if they mix-in elements of his college system in the first year. Don't think Rams have a solid enough veteran QB who'd allow them to sit out Goff for a year.
Eagles are better prepped in that department - Bradford and Daniel are OK vets, although I wouldn't be shocked if they tried to trade Bradford now. That still leaves them with Daniel, who I think is a capable enough QB to allow Wentz/Goff time to grow into the system without too much pressure.
And it's not like the expectations starting Bradford/Daniel in '16 would be sky-high anyway, so the pressure shouldn't be too much on the team as a whole anyway.

IMO, the one thing such teams need to understand is that this will be a process of at least 2, more like 3 years, before they start putting any real pressure of expectations on their young QB. Obviously you want to see some sort of gradual improvement in handling NFL offensive schemes and ability to read defenses and the game, as a whole, from one year onto the next, but can't focus on results in the short run.
I think, so far, the Raiders and the Jags have done a good job in that regard with Carr and Bortles, respectively.

 

[KB824]

That is a lot of money against the cap for the QB position for the Eagles.


A ton.


I don't see a market for either Bradford or Daniel. Three high paid QB's on the roster is something you would have seen prior to the cap.

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I can just see it now.


"With the 7th pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, The San Francisco 49ers select............................

Paxton Lynch, Quarterback. Memphis"




My poor little child. He or she will only have a daddy for a few days.

 

[acmilan]

That is a lot of money against the cap for the QB position for the Eagles.


A ton.


I don't see a market for either Bradford or Daniel. Three high paid QB's on the roster is something you would have seen prior to the cap.

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I can just see it now.


"With the 7th pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, The San Francisco 49ers select............................

Paxton Lynch, Quarterback. Memphis"




My poor little child. He or she will only have a daddy for a few days.

yeah, I am not sure what the rationale behind extending Bradford was. Eagles are in total-rebuild mode, for all practical purposes, so I get the Daniel signing but giving an average at best, under-achiever like Bradford a 2 yr, 36 mil total (22 mil guaranteed) is just nuts. I get that they weren't guaranteed a successful trade for one of top two picks but by now it should have become painfully obvious he is not "the guy", so why perpetuate that mistake at the price of an arm and a leg? Seems to me they misjudged free agency availability of mediocre starting QBs and overreacted in the worst way possible.

9ers could do a lot worse with that pick than pick their QB for the future. Still, if they are high on Lynch, one would think it would be best if they traded back some spots (there should be a player available at pick 7 that other teams would covet) and take the QB there. I think the first team, after 9ers, that may legitimately be interested in Lynch would be Detroit (16) and then possibly Bills (19) and definitely Jets (20) and certainly the Steelers (25).

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My poor little child. He or she will only have a daddy for a few days.

Is that what the date in your sigi is referring to? If so, congrats, Serg, here is for one healthy bundle of joy

 

[KB824]

yeah, I am not sure what the rationale behind extending Bradford was. Eagles are in total-rebuild mode, for all practical purposes, so I get the Daniel signing but giving an average at best, under-achiever like Bradford a 2 yr, 36 mil total (22 mil guaranteed) is just nuts. I get that they weren't guaranteed a successful trade for one of top two picks but by now it should have become painfully obvious he is not "the guy", so why perpetuate that mistake at the price of an arm and a leg? Seems to me they misjudged free agency availability of mediocre starting QBs and overreacted in the worst way possible.

9ers could do a lot worse with that pick than pick their QB for the future. Still, if they are high on Lynch, one would think it would be best if they traded back some spots (there should be a player available at pick 7 that other teams would covet) and take the QB there. I think the first team, after 9ers, that may legitimately be interested in Lynch would be Detroit (16) and then possibly Bills (19) and definitely Jets (20) and certainly the Steelers (25).

Fuck Paxton Lynch. Seriously. This guy is a fringe 1st round talent before all of this insanity happened. Now all of a sudden he is in the top 10?


Bullshit. Just because other teams are riding this wave of stupidity doesn't mean the Niners need to go running to grab their surfboard.

Having a Franchise QB would be great, but A) If this dude was projected to be one, he would have been projected to be one well before this nonsense started happening and B) Know what else would be great? having a world class defense again, and signing Norman and drafting either Buckner or Jack could put them on the right path again. Denver won the Super Bowl solely because of their defense. Seattle won because pf their defense and Russell Wilson not making mistakes.

I sure would love to have that again

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yeah, I am not sure what the rationale behind extending Bradford was. Eagles are in total-rebuild mode, for all practical purposes, so I get the Daniel signing but giving an average at best, under-achiever like Bradford a 2 yr, 36 mil total (22 mil guaranteed) is just nuts. I get that they weren't guaranteed a successful trade for one of top two picks but by now it should have become painfully obvious he is not "the guy", so why perpetuate that mistake at the price of an arm and a leg? Seems to me they misjudged free agency availability of mediocre starting QBs and overreacted in the worst way possible.

9ers could do a lot worse with that pick than pick their QB for the future. Still, if they are high on Lynch, one would think it would be best if they traded back some spots (there should be a player available at pick 7 that other teams would covet) and take the QB there. I think the first team, after 9ers, that may legitimately be interested in Lynch would be Detroit (16) and then possibly Bills (19) and definitely Jets (20) and certainly the Steelers (25).

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Is that what the date in your sigi is referring to? If so, congrats, Serg, here is for one healthy bundle of joy

Yes it is.

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And I guarantee you that there will be teams pushing to move up to #7 to take Lynch ahead of the Browns. At least that is what I am really hoping for.

Really, REALLY hoping for this.


I don't even mind moving way down in the first round if it means a bucket load of draft picks. This team needs quality and quantity

 

[Salvo]

Fuck Paxton Lynch. Seriously. This guy is a fringe 1st round talent before all of this insanity happened. Now all of a sudden he is in the top 10?


Bullshit. Just because other teams are riding this wave of stupidity doesn't mean the Niners need to go running to grab their surfboard.

Having a Franchise QB would be great, but A) If this dude was projected to be one, he would have been projected to be one well before this nonsense started happening and B) Know what else would be great? having a world class defense again, and signing Norman and drafting either Buckner or Jack could put them on the right path again. Denver won the Super Bowl solely because of their defense. Seattle won because pf their defense and Russell Wilson not making mistakes.

I sure would love to have that again

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Yes it is.
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And I guarantee you that there will be teams pushing to move up to #7 to take Lynch ahead of the Browns. At least that is what I am really hoping for.

Really, REALLY hoping for this.


I don't even mind moving way down in the first round if it means a bucket load of draft picks. This team needs quality and quantity

Get me Jack. I'd be so happy. Then take a flier late on someone like hackenberg. No point in going for a Connor cook in the second.

 

[acmilan]

Fuck Paxton Lynch. Seriously. This guy is a fringe 1st round talent before all of this insanity happened. Now all of a sudden he is in the top 10?


Bullshit. Just because other teams are riding this wave of stupidity doesn't mean the Niners need to go running to grab their surfboard.

Having a Franchise QB would be great, but A) If this dude was projected to be one, he would have been projected to be one well before this nonsense started happening and B) Know what else would be great? having a world class defense again, and signing Norman and drafting either Buckner or Jack could put them on the right path again. Denver won the Super Bowl solely because of their defense. Seattle won because pf their defense and Russell Wilson not making mistakes.

I sure would love to have that again

Haven't been following if the narrative about Lynch has changed as a result of the two trades for top 2 picks. The main reason why he kept a low profile - late 1st, early 2nd projection - was mostly because he is considered to be the least NFL-ready among the draft's top QB prospects, not because he doesn't have the potential to be a good NFL starter. Not familiar with him as a prospect beyond the physical aspect of his game but base on that, for many, he is the QB with the highest ceiling this year. It's the fact that he would need a good 2 years of parking in the study room that seems to keep team off his trail, to an extent.

Not sure why you think he would be a top 10 pick. 9ers could trade back 10-12 spots and will still be likely to get him (earliest and biggest taker for Lynch should be Jets at 20, Lions is more of a guess at this point).

Also, If NFL GMs have half a brain, none of Buckner, Tunsil, Jack, Ramsey should be still on board at pick 7. Best player available there should be Elliot, who may be a really good RB prospect, but how much better do you think he would make your team, as opposed to Hyde. And the 2017 RB class should be loaded, meaning the 9ers could take a great RB prospect then with their 2nd rounder if they so feel the need to do so.
Point is, drafting Elliot will not put the 9esr back on the map.

 

[KB824]

Haven't been following if the narrative about Lynch has changed as a result of the two trades for top 2 picks. The main reason why he kept a low profile - late 1st, early 2nd projection - was mostly because he is considered to be the least NFL-ready among the draft's top QB prospects, not because he doesn't have the potential to be a good NFL starter. Not familiar with him as a prospect beyond the physical aspect of his game but base on that, for many, he is the QB with the highest ceiling this year. It's the fact that he would need a good 2 years of parking in the study room that seems to keep team off his trail, to an extent.

Not sure why you think he would be a top 10 pick. 9ers could trade back 10-12 spots and will still be likely to get him (earliest and biggest taker for Lynch should be Jets at 20, Lions is more of a guess at this point).

Also, If NFL GMs have half a brain, none of Buckner, Tunsil, Jack, Ramsey should be still on board at pick 7. Best player available there should be Elliot, who may be a really good RB prospect, but how much better do you think he would make your team, as opposed to Hyde. And the 2017 RB class should be loaded, meaning the 9ers could take a great RB prospect then with their 2nd rounder if they so feel the need to do so.
Point is, drafting Elliot will not put the 9esr back on the map.

There are numerous reports that there is going to be a run for Lynch now, with not only the Browns eyeing him at #8, but teams trying to move ahead of them to get him. I don't remember ever saying that the Niners should draft Elliot . If they draft him at 7, that is actually worse than drafting Lynch there, and that is saying a lot.

Anyway, a lot of mocks have the Niners drafting Derrick Henry in the 2nd. I don't know WHY, but they do.

 

[acmilan]

And I guarantee you that there will be teams pushing to move up to #7 to take Lynch ahead of the Browns. At least that is what I am really hoping for.

Really, REALLY hoping for this.


I don't even mind moving way down in the first round if it means a bucket load of draft picks. This team needs quality and quantity

I don't know about that. Earliest team I can see look at Lynch more seriously is Lions at 16 but doubt they will be desperate to move way up for him, if at all.
The most legit takers for Lynch, imo would be Jets (at 20 and no cap room left, they can't afford to move way up for him; maybe 5 spots but that's about it, they need picks to rebuild an ageing and lacking roster thru draft). Then it's the Steelers at 25 - not desperate for a QB, so they won't value LYnch as much to make a big move up the board to take him. And then the Broncos at 31 - they have the need but are way too far behind to move to earlier than pick 20 for Lynch.

 

[KB824]

I don't know about that. Earliest team I can see look at Lynch more seriously is Lions at 16 but doubt they will be desperate to move way up for him, if at all.
The most legit takers for Lynch, imo would be Jets (at 20 and no cap room left, they can't afford to move way up for him; maybe 5 spots but that's about it, they need picks to rebuild an ageing and lacking roster thru draft). Then it's the Steelers at 25 - not desperate for a QB, so they won't value LYnch as much to make a big move up the board to take him. And then the Broncos at 31 - they have the need but are way too far behind to move to earlier than pick 20 for Lynch.

If there is a player on the board that teams are looking for, even if it is not Lynch, then I certainly wouldn't mind if they trade back to the middle of the round. I would love to see a player fall to that spot that Tennessee is coveting, and have them make a trade with the Niners for #15 and at least 1 of those two 2nd round picks they just received. I would be thrilled.


And if it so happens that Lynch makes it down to 15, then I wouldn't be so upset.


The thought of them taking Lynch at 7, though, really really upsets me if there is better value on that board.

 

[acmilan]

There are numerous reports that there is going to be a run for Lynch now, with not only the Browns eyeing him at #8, but teams trying to move ahead of them to get him. I don't remember ever saying that the Niners should draft Elliot . If they draft him at 7, that is actually worse than drafting Lynch there, and that is saying a lot.

Anyway, a lot of mocks have the Niners drafting Derrick Henry in the 2nd. I don't know WHY, but they do.

I am guessing the two trades we saw have spurred analysts/experts; imagination and they are overdoing it now. I don't see why Browns would forgo getting Wentz/Goff but be willing to take an inferior, less NFL ready prospect still quite early in the draft. Not sure it makes much sense to me, at least.

I gave Elliot as an example of likely BPA at pick 7. Meaning, by potentially trading back for Lynch, 9ers won't be missing out on all that much as Buckner and Jack should be off the board by then. Same with Ramsey and Tunsil, who I see as inferior prospects to Buckner and Jack.

 

[KB824]

I am guessing the two trades we saw have spurred analysts/experts; imagination and they are overdoing it now. I don't see why Browns would forgo getting Wentz/Goff but be willing to take an inferior, less NFL ready prospect still quite early in the draft. Not sure it makes much sense to me, at least.

I gave Elliot as an example of likely BPA at pick 7. Meaning, by potentially trading back for Lynch, 9ers won't be missing out on all that much as Buckner and Jack should be off the board by then. Same Ramsey and Tunsil, who I see as inferior prospects to Buckner and Jack.

Possbily because they feel that the dropoff between those two and Lynch isn't as great as dropoffs from previous years? And that they feel that if they can get a boat load of extra picks and still get a QB that they feel Jackson can develop, then it is worth it?

 

[acmilan]

Possbily because they feel that the dropoff between those two and Lynch isn't as great as dropoffs from previous years? And that they feel that if they can get a boat load of extra picks and still get a QB that they feel Jackson can develop, then it is worth it?

Certainly not an impossible scenario but Lynch is a good year behind Wentz and possibly 2 behind Goff in terms of development. And, like I said, physically he is a great prospect but I am not sure about his mental make-up ... kind of felt that the Browns gave up on drafting a QB early this year after trading back. And 8th pick is still too early for Lynch, imo.
Then again, it's the Browns ...