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- Thread starter Torkel
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I hear that Tennessee wants to get back in the Top 10, so if they offer the 49ers the 15th pick and one of those 2nd rounders they acquired, I'm down with that.
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Third round?
No, he is going in the first round, no doubt about it. He is the #3 QB on this board, and you saw what the Rams and the Eagles just did. Lynch is absolutely going 1st round
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Third round?
No, he is going in the first round, no doubt about it. He is the #3 QB on this board, and you saw what the Rams and the Eagles just did. Lynch is absolutely going 1st round
You tell me you know what "intangibles" means but everything you say points to the exact opposite, Serge ...
If you think you have the right man, you have the right man and the rest of the landscape shouldn't matter ... unless we are talking about a crazy talented draft class like the one in '14. For all other draft classes in recent memory, going back 6-8 or so years, that approach still applies. The talent at the QB position is evaluated differently than any other and to see it differently is like asking whether Tunsil or Ramsey or Jack can play better at QB that Wentz or Goff ... The QB position is also what separates winning franchises from losing ones. Whether a franchise actually has the capacity to pick their man and/or develop him, that's a separate matter.
All I am saying here is this - for my money, both Wentz and Goff, talent/potential-wise are worth going up for, if you are a team without a sure thing at QB but picking somewhere below the top of the draft. Circumstances don't give you much of an option anyway, hence why the price is high.
For what it may be worth, last year, I'd have still had Wentz as the QB prospect with the best potential (albeit the most risky pick too), followed by Mariotta and Goff, while Winston as the most likely to bust out, eventually. Bucs and Titans got lucky to be QB-needy teams picking at #1 and 2, respectively. Not every QB-needy team is that lucky, which is part of the circumstances I was referring to above. When you in the latter category, you either have to pay a big price for the chance to sit at the table, or be content with hunting for crumbs underneath.
There is also a third option - hope that your late 6th round pick lands you the next Brady or Montana but smart money says that will be a long wait.
In the end of the day, there are two types of teams in the NFL - teams with a QB and teams without.
If you think you have the right man, you have the right man and the rest of the landscape shouldn't matter ... unless we are talking about a crazy talented draft class like the one in '14. For all other draft classes in recent memory, going back 6-8 or so years, that approach still applies. The talent at the QB position is evaluated differently than any other and to see it differently is like asking whether Tunsil or Ramsey or Jack can play better at QB that Wentz or Goff ... The QB position is also what separates winning franchises from losing ones. Whether a franchise actually has the capacity to pick their man and/or develop him, that's a separate matter.
All I am saying here is this - for my money, both Wentz and Goff, talent/potential-wise are worth going up for, if you are a team without a sure thing at QB but picking somewhere below the top of the draft. Circumstances don't give you much of an option anyway, hence why the price is high.
For what it may be worth, last year, I'd have still had Wentz as the QB prospect with the best potential (albeit the most risky pick too), followed by Mariotta and Goff, while Winston as the most likely to bust out, eventually. Bucs and Titans got lucky to be QB-needy teams picking at #1 and 2, respectively. Not every QB-needy team is that lucky, which is part of the circumstances I was referring to above. When you in the latter category, you either have to pay a big price for the chance to sit at the table, or be content with hunting for crumbs underneath.
There is also a third option - hope that your late 6th round pick lands you the next Brady or Montana but smart money says that will be a long wait.
In the end of the day, there are two types of teams in the NFL - teams with a QB and teams without.
That is fine. You have your opinion, I have mine.
I'm just glad that the 49ers were not this stupid to make these deals. IF it were for Mariota or Winston? Absolutely. But not for these two. This is simply a product of there being no absolute "sure thing" at QB this year in the draft, and these clubs got desperate
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So, I do have to ask though, what these intangibles are that you see in Carson Wentz
I'm just glad that the 49ers were not this stupid to make these deals. IF it were for Mariota or Winston? Absolutely. But not for these two. This is simply a product of there being no absolute "sure thing" at QB this year in the draft, and these clubs got desperate
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So, I do have to ask though, what these intangibles are that you see in Carson Wentz
The is never such a thing as a "sure thing", especially when it comes to the QB position in the NFL. That's sort of the point, otherwise there would be no busts and Brady-style shockers in the draft. And the Browns or even the Titans wouldn't trade down either, etc, etc. And yes, I know what you meant by "sure thing" but prospects like Luck/Manning come about once every 20 years anyway.
Every team without a QB is desperate, as they should be, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to get better. Where we differ in opinion is that it's actually worth paying the price for these two prospects. Does that mean both Wentz and Goff, or at least one of them, would become a franchise QB? No, it doesn't, but I think they are worth a shot, something I never said about Winston, for example.
"intangibles", at least to me, mean - natural intelligence, focus, determination, willingness to put in the extra work to get better, attention to detail, etc, etc ... don't care about armstrength (which Wentz has), don't care about accuracy (which he has enough of), don't care about athleticism (which he has too), don't care about win/loss record or level of competition in college or any of that other stuff.
Is Wentz/Goff perfect? No, not by any means but they have everything they need, from a personal perspective, to grow, to improve and become good enough.
Whether either of Wentz or Goff develops into a proper QB, and how quickly in their respective NFL careers, will depend on a number of factors (team environment, coaching, opportunity, etc, etc). What I have been arguing for is that they have the necessary foundation, the right mental make-up for a franchise, which if capable enough, to turn them into at least good-to-very good starting NFL QBs. And that would be enough to warrant the price both the Rams and the Eagles have paid so far.
Either one of those picks that the Titans or the Browns got comes with a certain level of risk, risk that only goes higher as the round does too. If those franchises are smart, really smart at drafting, maybe they get 1 really good and a couple of pretty good players out of that entire "haul" of picks (same would have been for the Rams or Eagles had they kept the picks). But unless one of those players is a QB, it's really not gonna affect the fate of the franchise all that much, big-picture-wise. And that's what makes the risk the Rams and Eagles are taking, worth it, for the circumstances they are stuck in.
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exactly why do you think the Panthers did what they did?
Norman will become 29 yo during the '16 season. His performances over the past 2-3 years have created a certain level of expectation when it comes to his 1st big contract in the NFL, and rightfully so. Unfortunately for him, time is catching up and teams, if they are smart, will be very weary of giving him the type of contract he believes he deserves, not at his age, not in the salary-cap era.
For my money, Panthers did the absolute best thing for them, under the circumstances. Norman's next team (which could still be the Panthers, btw) will either get really stupid (e.g the Jets with Revis) and give him the contract he is looking for, or Norman himself will have to reduce his demands/expectations.
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coming form a fan of a team with A-Rod as their QB 
Every team without a QB is desperate, as they should be, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to get better. Where we differ in opinion is that it's actually worth paying the price for these two prospects. Does that mean both Wentz and Goff, or at least one of them, would become a franchise QB? No, it doesn't, but I think they are worth a shot, something I never said about Winston, for example.
"intangibles", at least to me, mean - natural intelligence, focus, determination, willingness to put in the extra work to get better, attention to detail, etc, etc ... don't care about armstrength (which Wentz has), don't care about accuracy (which he has enough of), don't care about athleticism (which he has too), don't care about win/loss record or level of competition in college or any of that other stuff.
Is Wentz/Goff perfect? No, not by any means but they have everything they need, from a personal perspective, to grow, to improve and become good enough.
Whether either of Wentz or Goff develops into a proper QB, and how quickly in their respective NFL careers, will depend on a number of factors (team environment, coaching, opportunity, etc, etc). What I have been arguing for is that they have the necessary foundation, the right mental make-up for a franchise, which if capable enough, to turn them into at least good-to-very good starting NFL QBs. And that would be enough to warrant the price both the Rams and the Eagles have paid so far.
Either one of those picks that the Titans or the Browns got comes with a certain level of risk, risk that only goes higher as the round does too. If those franchises are smart, really smart at drafting, maybe they get 1 really good and a couple of pretty good players out of that entire "haul" of picks (same would have been for the Rams or Eagles had they kept the picks). But unless one of those players is a QB, it's really not gonna affect the fate of the franchise all that much, big-picture-wise. And that's what makes the risk the Rams and Eagles are taking, worth it, for the circumstances they are stuck in.
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exactly why do you think the Panthers did what they did?
Norman will become 29 yo during the '16 season. His performances over the past 2-3 years have created a certain level of expectation when it comes to his 1st big contract in the NFL, and rightfully so. Unfortunately for him, time is catching up and teams, if they are smart, will be very weary of giving him the type of contract he believes he deserves, not at his age, not in the salary-cap era.
For my money, Panthers did the absolute best thing for them, under the circumstances. Norman's next team (which could still be the Panthers, btw) will either get really stupid (e.g the Jets with Revis) and give him the contract he is looking for, or Norman himself will have to reduce his demands/expectations.
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The Eagles and the Rams 
This argument would make a lot more sense if Wentz and Goff were the top two players overall, and that although they don't stack up to high rated quarterbacks in the past few years (and they don't), then you can kind of understand why these teams did what they did.
But they are not. They barely even sniff the top 5 of prospects this year.
So all of this moving around and funding all these draft picks on 2 quarterbacks where the team with the #1 pick didn't need one and the team with the #2 pick that DOES need a quarterback, have no issues trading down.
Tunsil, Ramsey, Jack, Buckner, Bosa are all rated ahead of them in regards to grades, regardless of position on most analysts boards.
The Rams make this move 2 weeks before the draft just so they can finally decide who to pick. Normally a team does that kind of homework before selling the farm.
And the Eagles. Well I don't even know what to say about that. Who were they going to.compete against for the
2nd best QB? Teams 3-6? They have quarterbacks, and even though Romo is injured, the Cowboys have far greater needs.
So the only team that they would have had to beat out was San Francisco, and anyone who knows Baalke, knows that he covets picks and would trade down than trade up. But the Eagles are the Eagles, and they panicked.
As I said. I am very glad the 49ers didn't do something monumentally stupid for a change
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I'm not saying they won't be good quarterbacks. But you don't give up several years of high draft picks for good quarterbacks.
You give up that kind of ransom for franchise type players, and neither one of them grade out to be that
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And the happiest person in the draft is Paxton Lynch, because now there is a real market for him.
But they are not. They barely even sniff the top 5 of prospects this year.
So all of this moving around and funding all these draft picks on 2 quarterbacks where the team with the #1 pick didn't need one and the team with the #2 pick that DOES need a quarterback, have no issues trading down.
Tunsil, Ramsey, Jack, Buckner, Bosa are all rated ahead of them in regards to grades, regardless of position on most analysts boards.
The Rams make this move 2 weeks before the draft just so they can finally decide who to pick. Normally a team does that kind of homework before selling the farm.
And the Eagles. Well I don't even know what to say about that. Who were they going to.compete against for the
2nd best QB? Teams 3-6? They have quarterbacks, and even though Romo is injured, the Cowboys have far greater needs.
So the only team that they would have had to beat out was San Francisco, and anyone who knows Baalke, knows that he covets picks and would trade down than trade up. But the Eagles are the Eagles, and they panicked.
As I said. I am very glad the 49ers didn't do something monumentally stupid for a change
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I'm not saying they won't be good quarterbacks. But you don't give up several years of high draft picks for good quarterbacks.
You give up that kind of ransom for franchise type players, and neither one of them grade out to be that
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And the happiest person in the draft is Paxton Lynch, because now there is a real market for him.