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About what, exactly?
Whether Joe is the GOAT?
In my heart he is.
But I said it after the last SB that Brady is the GOAT. And if they win the SB again this year, and if Brady is the MVP of said Super Bowl, then please, once and for all, everyone stop wasting valuable bandwidth.
The man will be the starting QB on 5 Super Bowls.
He will have been in 7 in 15 years. Once every 2 fucking years, in the era of Free Agency.
He will have won more Super Bowls than any other Quarterback, and have been in more Super Bowls than any other Quarterback. He is already a 3-Time Super Bowl MVP.
He will have also had every conceivable passing record in the postseason.
And this doesn't even take into account his Regular Season statistics, which are absolutely insane, especially considering he missed a full season. Remarkable durability throughout his career and especially this season, as he is taking a fucking beating behind that swiss cheese offensive line. In 15 years he has missed 15 games due to injury.
ALL of those games were during the season when he was out for the year.
And this is coming from a 49ers fan since the days of OJ Simpson. So yes, I saw it ALL with Montana. I saw the Super Bowl wins, I saw the comebacks, but I also saw the stinkers he had in the playoffs. I saw the numerous times where he got hurt and couldn't finish playoff games. I saw the game against Minnesota in '87 when that 49ers team that had 2 losses in the regular season, and laid an egg at home against Anthony Carter and the Vikings. The losses to the Giants, the losses to the Redskins, not making the playoffs after winning Super Bowl XVI.
Don't make it seem like Joe didn't have warts, because he did. It's just that was much more of an "everyman" than Tom Brady. Joe didn't have the superstar looks with the supermodel wife. Joe seemed more of a guy that you could go and have a beer with, which is why he resonated with so many people in and out of the Bay Area.
But I will say it again. If Brady wins the Super Bowl this year, and if he is the MVP (hell, even if he isn't but still has a really good game), then he is the best ever, and you guys can find something else to argue about.,
Whether Joe is the GOAT?
In my heart he is.
But I said it after the last SB that Brady is the GOAT. And if they win the SB again this year, and if Brady is the MVP of said Super Bowl, then please, once and for all, everyone stop wasting valuable bandwidth.
The man will be the starting QB on 5 Super Bowls.
He will have been in 7 in 15 years. Once every 2 fucking years, in the era of Free Agency.
He will have won more Super Bowls than any other Quarterback, and have been in more Super Bowls than any other Quarterback. He is already a 3-Time Super Bowl MVP.
He will have also had every conceivable passing record in the postseason.
And this doesn't even take into account his Regular Season statistics, which are absolutely insane, especially considering he missed a full season. Remarkable durability throughout his career and especially this season, as he is taking a fucking beating behind that swiss cheese offensive line. In 15 years he has missed 15 games due to injury.
ALL of those games were during the season when he was out for the year.
And this is coming from a 49ers fan since the days of OJ Simpson. So yes, I saw it ALL with Montana. I saw the Super Bowl wins, I saw the comebacks, but I also saw the stinkers he had in the playoffs. I saw the numerous times where he got hurt and couldn't finish playoff games. I saw the game against Minnesota in '87 when that 49ers team that had 2 losses in the regular season, and laid an egg at home against Anthony Carter and the Vikings. The losses to the Giants, the losses to the Redskins, not making the playoffs after winning Super Bowl XVI.
Don't make it seem like Joe didn't have warts, because he did. It's just that was much more of an "everyman" than Tom Brady. Joe didn't have the superstar looks with the supermodel wife. Joe seemed more of a guy that you could go and have a beer with, which is why he resonated with so many people in and out of the Bay Area.
But I will say it again. If Brady wins the Super Bowl this year, and if he is the MVP (hell, even if he isn't but still has a really good game), then he is the best ever, and you guys can find something else to argue about.,
damn great post
Up until last year. They are at worst, on equal footing when you take everything (regular Season and Playoffs) into consideration.
But that man completed nearly 75% of hiss passes for over 300 yards and 4 Touchdowns against arguably one of the greatest defenses of all time for a single season.
Newsflash. The best Defense that Montana faced in a Super Bowl was Miami's Killer B's defense, and they were nowhere on the level of the Seahawks.
Sorry, but Seattle defense last year was nowhere near the defense they were the year before. And let's not ignore the fact Brady through 2 INTs and would have lost the game if not for a CB intercepting a pass on 1st and goal from the NE 1 with less than 30 seconds left.
Also. Don't exaggerate. Broncos D in 1989 was Number 1 total D and Number 1 Scoring D in the NFL allowing only 14.1 ppg. For reference, Seattle's D allowed 15.9 PPG last year. Montana put up 55 points on the best D in the NFL in a Super Bowl. Didn't throw a single INT.
Of course revisionist history forgets these things and says that Broncos D was terrible.
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Plus, talking about stinkers by Montana. Let's reference all-time choke jobs by Brady against the Giants. Seriously, going from the highest scoring offense of all time (at the time) 36.8 PPG, unbeaten in 2007, to putting up 14 points on the Giants. A defense that ranked 17th in Total D and Scoring D during the regular season.
Biggest upset in SB history, and absolutely massive choke by Brady. Brady has a fumble and a TD pass in the game after throwing 50 TD passes in the regular season.
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Add to this that Montana played in a conference with 3 all-time great teams in the 80s Redskins, Giants, Bears... while Brady has played in a rather weak AFC with prime competition being Peyton and Ben... Brady has had a far easier path to get to SBs for his entire career. The free agency argument works multiple ways. There aren't the cupcake teams there were then, but there is also nowhere near the competition at the top of the AFC there was in the NFC during Montana's days. That's not even debatable.
Brady won a SB while throwing 1 TD in 3 playoff games his first year. How anyone can even suggest he deserves credit in that year is hilarious. He threw 1 TD-1 INT in an entire playoffs. How he was given the SB MVP that year for 59% passing, 145 Yrds, and 1 TD against the Rams is one of the most laughable things in SB MVP history. Brady won his first 3 SBs while throwing 1 TD in 3 games in '02, 5 tds in 3 games in '04, 5 tds in 3 games in '05. Montana never threw less than 6 TDs in SB run. 6, 7, 8, 11 in his 4 SB runs. Brady threw for under 200 yards/game in the playoffs in both 02 and 05. Again, Montana never once did this, his worst SB run he still threw for over 250 yards/game.
Brady has not once come anywhere close to Montana's 88 and 89 playoff runs where he threw 19 TDs-1 INT over 6 games. 1990 playoffs: 11 TDs-0 INTs, 78% completion. Put up 42 points per game. Once Brady has a playoff run like that, than we can talk about him being the greatest playoff QB of all-time. But he's certainly not there yet. He was a game-manager QB his first 3 SB runs. Those wins were on the NE defense, kicking game, and rushing game, not on Brady. Once Brady became the dominant force in the NE offence and his passing stats spiked massively, he's won 1 SB. Yep. 1.
Also. Don't exaggerate. Broncos D in 1989 was Number 1 total D and Number 1 Scoring D in the NFL allowing only 14.1 ppg. For reference, Seattle's D allowed 15.9 PPG last year. Montana put up 55 points on the best D in the NFL in a Super Bowl. Didn't throw a single INT.
Of course revisionist history forgets these things and says that Broncos D was terrible.
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Plus, talking about stinkers by Montana. Let's reference all-time choke jobs by Brady against the Giants. Seriously, going from the highest scoring offense of all time (at the time) 36.8 PPG, unbeaten in 2007, to putting up 14 points on the Giants. A defense that ranked 17th in Total D and Scoring D during the regular season.
Biggest upset in SB history, and absolutely massive choke by Brady. Brady has a fumble and a TD pass in the game after throwing 50 TD passes in the regular season.
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Add to this that Montana played in a conference with 3 all-time great teams in the 80s Redskins, Giants, Bears... while Brady has played in a rather weak AFC with prime competition being Peyton and Ben... Brady has had a far easier path to get to SBs for his entire career. The free agency argument works multiple ways. There aren't the cupcake teams there were then, but there is also nowhere near the competition at the top of the AFC there was in the NFC during Montana's days. That's not even debatable.
Brady won a SB while throwing 1 TD in 3 playoff games his first year. How anyone can even suggest he deserves credit in that year is hilarious. He threw 1 TD-1 INT in an entire playoffs. How he was given the SB MVP that year for 59% passing, 145 Yrds, and 1 TD against the Rams is one of the most laughable things in SB MVP history.
Brady won his first 3 SBs while throwing 1 TD in 3 games in '02, 5 tds in 3 games in '04, 5 tds in 3 games in '05. Montana never threw less than 6 TDs in SB run. 6, 7, 8, 11 in his 4 SB runs. Brady threw for under 200 yards/game in the playoffs in both 02 and 05. Again, Montana never once did this, his worst SB run he still threw for over 250 yards/game.Brady has not once come anywhere close to Montana's 88 and 89 playoff runs where he threw 19 TDs-1 INT over 6 games. 1990 playoffs: 11 TDs-0 INTs, 78% completion. Put up 42 points per game. Once Brady has a playoff run like that, than we can talk about him being the greatest playoff QB of all-time. But he's certainly not there yet. He was a game-manager QB his first 3 SB runs. Those wins were on the NE defense, kicking game, and rushing game, not on Brady. Once Brady became the dominant force in the NE offence and his passing stats spiked massively, he's won 1 SB. Yep. 1.
Sorry, but Seattle defense last year was nowhere near the defense they were the year before. And let's not ignore the fact Brady through 2 INTs and would have lost the game if not for a CB intercepting a pass on 1st and goal from the NE 1 with less than 30 seconds left.
Also. Don't exaggerate. Broncos D in 1989 was Number 1 total D and Number 1 Scoring D in the NFL allowing only 14.1 ppg. For reference, Seattle's D allowed 15.9 PPG last year. Montana put up 55 points on the best D in the NFL in a Super Bowl. Didn't throw a single INT.
Of course revisionist history forgets these things and says that Broncos D was terrible.
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Plus, talking about stinkers by Montana. Let's reference all-time choke jobs by Brady against the Giants. Seriously, going from the highest scoring offense of all time (at the time) 36.8 PPG, unbeaten in 2007, to putting up 14 points on the Giants. A defense that ranked 17th in Total D and Scoring D during the regular season.
Biggest upset in SB history, and absolutely massive choke by Brady. Brady has a fumble and a TD pass in the game after throwing 50 TD passes in the regular season.
- - - Updated - - -
Add to this that Montana played in a conference with 3 all-time great teams in the 80s Redskins, Giants, Bears... while Brady has played in a rather weak AFC with prime competition being Peyton and Ben... Brady has had a far easier path to get to SBs for his entire career. The free agency argument works multiple ways. There aren't the cupcake teams there were then, but there is also nowhere near the competition at the top of the AFC there was in the NFC during Montana's days. That's not even debatable.
Also. Don't exaggerate. Broncos D in 1989 was Number 1 total D and Number 1 Scoring D in the NFL allowing only 14.1 ppg. For reference, Seattle's D allowed 15.9 PPG last year. Montana put up 55 points on the best D in the NFL in a Super Bowl. Didn't throw a single INT.
Of course revisionist history forgets these things and says that Broncos D was terrible.
- - - Updated - - -
Plus, talking about stinkers by Montana. Let's reference all-time choke jobs by Brady against the Giants. Seriously, going from the highest scoring offense of all time (at the time) 36.8 PPG, unbeaten in 2007, to putting up 14 points on the Giants. A defense that ranked 17th in Total D and Scoring D during the regular season.
Biggest upset in SB history, and absolutely massive choke by Brady. Brady has a fumble and a TD pass in the game after throwing 50 TD passes in the regular season.
- - - Updated - - -
Add to this that Montana played in a conference with 3 all-time great teams in the 80s Redskins, Giants, Bears... while Brady has played in a rather weak AFC with prime competition being Peyton and Ben... Brady has had a far easier path to get to SBs for his entire career. The free agency argument works multiple ways. There aren't the cupcake teams there were then, but there is also nowhere near the competition at the top of the AFC there was in the NFC during Montana's days. That's not even debatable.
The reason why those 3 other teams are considered all time great teams is because of the lack of Free agency, the lack of player movement, so these teams were allowed to develop and mature properly into the teams that they became.
It is a far different landscape this time around with the Salary Cap and free agency, and for a quarterback to potentially be able to get his team into the Super Bowl 7 times in 15 years, when everyone is working on a financial level playing field, is no small feat. Don't discount that. Yes, he did not perform well in those other two Super Bowls, but the fact remains that he led them to the big dance 6 times.
And Brady would not have "Lost that game" against Seattle if the Seahawks had scored. Brady put them in the lead in the 4th quarter with two TD's in the final 8 minutes. That loss would not have been on him.
Here is some food for thought.
Jerry Rice
John Taylor
Roger Craig
Brent Jones
Dwight Clark
Freddie Solomon
This list is not for the purpose of stating the talent level of the talent around Montana at the time. This list that I have shown are the 6 main targets that Montana had during his tenure with the 49ers.
What is the purpose of this list? Compare that to the revolving door of receivers that Brady has had in the last 15 years.
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And trust me, @Post Ironic.
Do you think, for one minute, that I WANT to make these arguments for Brady as the GOAT?
Fuck no.
But the point of that is that Montana was never going to beat those teams every single year. Brady has a much easier path to the SB. Every year. The Redskins won 3 SBs during the Montana era, the Giants 2. Most of Montana's playoff losses were to those 2 incredible teams. Brady hasn't had to face anything like that.
Montana and his receivers won their SBs for SF. Montana was never a game manager for the 49ers in their SB runs.
I don't see how anyone could argue that Brady was anything but a game-manager in his first three SB runs. 2 of those playoff seasons he threw under 2 TDs per game, and under 200 yards. He won a SB with 1 TD - 1 Int passing in an entire 3 game playoffs.
I place Brady --- Montana probably on the same level when thinking about it rationally. Montana > Brady in the playoffs easily (especially in SBs where it really is no comparison), but Brady > Montana in the regular season. Montana never won SBs while just having to manage games, and Brady had the good fortune of being put into that situation his first 4 years in the league. Honestly, look at the upturn in his passing stats and the NE shift towards an all-out passing attack, it began after 2005. Coincidentally NE has won 1 SB since.
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Anyways, if Brady wins a 5th SB I place him over Montana as greatest QB of all time, just because he'll have managed to win multiple SBs now as the biggest piece of the puzzle for NE. Add to that his superior career regular season stats and his better longevity and it will be Brady > Montana.
There is one thing that Montana will forever have and that is the best SB QB of all time by a country mile. 127.83 passer rating. 11 tds-0ints. No losses.
Montana and his receivers won their SBs for SF. Montana was never a game manager for the 49ers in their SB runs.
I don't see how anyone could argue that Brady was anything but a game-manager in his first three SB runs. 2 of those playoff seasons he threw under 2 TDs per game, and under 200 yards. He won a SB with 1 TD - 1 Int passing in an entire 3 game playoffs.
I place Brady --- Montana probably on the same level when thinking about it rationally. Montana > Brady in the playoffs easily (especially in SBs where it really is no comparison), but Brady > Montana in the regular season. Montana never won SBs while just having to manage games, and Brady had the good fortune of being put into that situation his first 4 years in the league. Honestly, look at the upturn in his passing stats and the NE shift towards an all-out passing attack, it began after 2005. Coincidentally NE has won 1 SB since.
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Anyways, if Brady wins a 5th SB I place him over Montana as greatest QB of all time, just because he'll have managed to win multiple SBs now as the biggest piece of the puzzle for NE. Add to that his superior career regular season stats and his better longevity and it will be Brady > Montana.
There is one thing that Montana will forever have and that is the best SB QB of all time by a country mile. 127.83 passer rating. 11 tds-0ints. No losses.
My heart will always tell me that Montana to me was the best of all time.
But numbers are numbers, and in this case they wouldn't lie. 5 Super Bowls, 7 appearances, incredible durability and regular season and post season numbers. It is hard to argue against that. And I've tried. I live in New England.
But numbers are numbers, and in this case they wouldn't lie. 5 Super Bowls, 7 appearances, incredible durability and regular season and post season numbers. It is hard to argue against that. And I've tried. I live in New England.
Aside from number of SB appearances, and potentially wins, every rational analysis and every statistical analysis of QB quality of play would place Montana over Brady. He was perfect in 4 SBs, whereas Brady has done enough to win. it's not even an argument there. Montana's Super Bowl passer rating is 30 points higher than Brady's. 30 points. That's obscene.
But if you combine everything, then you have to give the edge to Brady overall. Assuming that he wins
You have some quarterbacks who were great in the regualr season, but not the playoffs. Then you have vice versa with quarterbacks such as Aikman, who was great in the playoffs, but above average in the regular season.
You don't have quarterbacks who were equally great in both. Montana and Brady are in rarefied air.
You have some quarterbacks who were great in the regualr season, but not the playoffs. Then you have vice versa with quarterbacks such as Aikman, who was great in the playoffs, but above average in the regular season.
You don't have quarterbacks who were equally great in both. Montana and Brady are in rarefied air.
