Although i hate him but i think he is better than DP (4 Viewers)

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Jun-hide ] ++
IncuboRossonero,

Yes, Del Piero is more of a goalscorer than Totti, and, yes, we are comparing oranges and apples, but the point is unlike many people say Alex has been very competent at the International stage, as he scored, if I am correct more goals than Pippo, Vieri, Montella, or other prominent Italian forward that I cant think of.
Beside, I do not regard Totti as a "pure" fantasy player, in the mold of Rui, Veron, Baggio, Kaka or Zizou. He is more of playmaker/forward type than a natural midfielder and many people praise Totti on basis of his fantastic goalscoring record in Serie A. So Totti's mediocre goal-scoring record is something that should be looked at even if I suspect that is mainly due to different he assumes in Azzurri compared to Roma.

Yes, I know many media did blame Maldini, not to mention the likes of Materazzi, and Panucci for the failings in the WC, however, Totti being billed up as the "ace" of the group has to take the blame for the failures. It's part of responsibility of supposedly being a leader. Beside, Totti performance was more solid than good or spectacular. His WC performance wasnt bad compared to his extremely "underperformed" team-mates. However considering he was billed as the Italian Zizou by none-less than Trap, his performance was disappointing which is similar to Alex with France 98. WC was a chance for Totti to prove himself that he is in the league of Zizou, Henry, Rivaldo (In his prime), and considering how the tournament developed, regardless of Moreno's blunders, he missed his opportunity. However, I do not doubt Totti has the talent to succeed in the major tournament but he has to prove it which is different matter. As Denco rightly pointed out, Fiore, IMO, with Toldo was the fulcrum of Euro 2000. 2004 will be Totti's year hopefully. (which means Italia would have done well.) continued....

If you know why do you mention. It makes your football knowledge look as weak as Satu which it is clearly not. Goals mean very little as Totti was much more consistent and not as over-rated as Del Piero. In the end, all eyes and admiration were on the with whom little attention was given before the tournaments.

Totti was not billed the ace. The Del Piero hype was immense as it always is before a WC. Year in and year out Juve's golden boy is dubbed the saviour of Italy...Rossi, Baggio and then DP. With DP it never happened but Juve never gave up trying to have it work out.
You cannot begin to compare Totti's performance to Del Piero. Totti performed. Del Piero didn't. That is the bottom line. Never mind what they said. That was only said after he started. Totti has had to constantly fight against the Del Piero fan wave year after year. Saying in the end nobody won is just dumb. Is that to say that Nedved and Tacchinardi were on equal footing in the CL because regardless in the end Juve did not win the cup?
Your not making sense..if they win even the non-existent players win.
Totti has proven he can play consistently..will be a major factor...can play with Vieri AND Inzaghi (with whom Del Piero does not speak) AND is able to shake off a bad game. In that aspect Totti has proven much more than DP has.

 

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[Jun-hide]

I could not help but notice that you used a double standard on Alex. Nothing personal though.

Basic arugment is
Alex wasn't blamed for the failings...
but he didn't turned up.

The fact that you stated he didn't turn, intentionally or not, implicitly impy that Alex is partly responbile for the WC failure.
Now, considering that he was given about 90mins in the entire tournament, and was benched in favour Doni, and Inzaghi (both of whom
I believe is inferior to Alex) is clear indication in my view that Trap doesn't see eye to eye with Alex whether it is a personal problem or tactical reason. Player can only prove himself when he is given the chance, and Alex in WC 2002 wasn't given the chance. Of course, he didn't show up in Euro 1996, WC 1998, Euro 2000, but big tournament is all about conditioning and being on form in that moment (as successes of South Korea, USA, Senegal, Germany shows), and having bit of luck. So I am not buying any argument that claims he would have sucked in WC 2002 because he sucked on previous occasions. One thing we do know certain is that Trap under-used him big time.

As for Alex being overrated, that is subjective view, so never convey the iamge that it is a fact. Better use words with "I believe", "I think" and so forth. I won't go into argument whether he is over-rated or not, because we are going to end up in long~ debate..

I have no problem whether you think Totti is better or not. But as you disagree with some of my statment on Alex as being biased, I cant help but point out some of your bias on Totti.. Anyway, they are both wonderful players I hope they perform well in Euro 2004 with the rest of group.

 

[Jun-hide]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


If you know why do you mention. It makes your football knowledge look as weak as Satu which it is clearly not. Goals mean very little as Totti was much more consistent and not as over-rated as Del Piero. In the end, all eyes and admiration were on the with whom little attention was given before the tournaments.

Totti was not billed the ace. The Del Piero hype was immense as it always is before a WC. Year in and year out Juve's golden boy is dubbed the saviour of Italy...Rossi, Baggio and then DP. With DP it never happened but Juve never gave up trying to have it work out.
You cannot begin to compare Totti's performance to Del Piero. Totti performed. Del Piero didn't. That is the bottom line. Never mind what they said. That was only said after he started. Totti has had to constantly fight against the Del Piero fan wave year after year. Saying in the end nobody won is just dumb. Is that to say that Nedved and Tacchinardi were on equal footing in the CL because regardless in the end Juve did not win the cup?
Your not making sense..if they win even the non-existent players win.
Totti has proven he can play consistently..will be a major factor...can play with Vieri AND Inzaghi (with whom Del Piero does not speak) AND is able to shake off a bad game. In that aspect Totti has proven much more than DP has.

Ok I am a bit critical of Totti.
However, I am merely pointing out some bias over Totti as you are pointing my bias over Alex.. Totti, whether he wanted or not, was explictly pointed out by Trap (so it seems on the magazine I read), that he was the focus of the WC 2002 just as Zizou was in France 98. The point is that when you are focus of your team then the performance is measure on the basis of how you did compared to other "stars" and "aces". What is asked of Totti was not merely being good but being "great". Of course, soccer is a team game, and anyone who played it will know it requires team effort as well as individual one. And players are all inter-dependent on each other. But we also know that the role occupied by each players are not same, and in Totti's case his role signifcantly bigger than his team-mates, and IMO, he did not do good job of it. His performance compared to Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ballack, Kahn, Sas, were mediocre, and hence Italia did not have "competitve advantage" in his deparment. Of course, it is not his fault that such expectations are placed on him, but isn't that the case with Alex as well?. Anyway, Rossi, Baggio are remembered, not because, they were merely better than their teammates but because they were the best players in their tournaments. Remember Baggio single handely pull Italia out of Nigerian death? Dribbling past Zubizarreta? 20mins of wonder soccer against Bulgarians who had to resort to kicking his legs? *cough* Ivanov *cough*. Totti, for me, hasn't reached that level "yet" but he may have the talent to do so. Euro2004 is the stage to prove it.

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Jun-hide ] ++
The point is that when you are focus of your team then the performance is measure on the basis of how you did compared to other "stars" and "aces". What is asked of Totti was not merely being good but being "great". Of course, soccer is a team game, and anyone who played it will know it requires team effort as well as individual one. And players are all inter-dependent on each other. But we also know that the role occupied by each players are not same, and in Totti's case his role signifcantly bigger than his team-mates, and IMO, he did not do good job of it. His performance compared to Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ballack, Kahn, Sas, were mediocre, and hence Italia did not have "competitve advantage" in his deparment. Of course, it is not his fault that such expectations are placed on him, but isn't that the case with Alex as well?.

I'm at a bit of a loss here. As you say, it wasn't Totti's fault that Trap could not see past his person in building his WC team. But I do think it could have worked had Trap played his cards right. There is always some element of luck, form, morale etc (ie. some element of chance) in every game but to me it's clear that Trap messed up big time with the untested, experimental tactics, which would [probably] not have worked no matter who was on the pitch. Had he gone a tad more offensive, it could have worked out, with or without Totti but as such he's probably capable of making it tick in a big time situation like that. I would have preferred Doni myself at the time, then again he flopped playing out of position so perhaps he was not up to standard at that moment.

Don't mind me, just rambling.

 

[NEDVED]

Final point: Totti is better than del piero now
Del piero is better than totti in history

 

[IncuboRossonero]

What history??

Certainly not the National Team one ...

winning one CL on PK?

Winning scudetto's with the likes of Vialli, Inzaghi, Ravanelli, Zidane, Trezeguet, Nedved and Davids??

Its not a final point its your opinion.

 

[NEDVED]

incubo, did u watch dp in the 1996-1997.......

even if dp was surrounded by excellent players, he was the brightest one........all eyes were fixed on dp and he took the lights of roberto baggio himself.....

im trying not to defend dp as much as possible, but i guess hes better than totti in the past, now, no way, totti is playing very well...but incubo, i have a feeling that u dont like dp at all, u say that totti is better than dp in everything unless u have smthng to say..

 

[Jun-hide]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++


I'm at a bit of a loss here. As you say, it wasn't Totti's fault that Trap could not see past his person in building his WC team. But I do think it could have worked had Trap played his cards right. There is always some element of luck, form, morale etc (ie. some element of chance) in every game but to me it's clear that Trap messed up big time with the untested, experimental tactics, which would [probably] not have worked no matter who was on the pitch. Had he gone a tad more offensive, it could have worked out, with or without Totti but as such he's probably capable of making it tick in a big time situation like that. I would have preferred Doni myself at the time, then again he flopped playing out of position so perhaps he was not up to standard at that moment.

Don't mind me, just rambling.

No offence taken.
Anyway, I do agree that Trap had his tactical decisions wrong, and badly (can someone explain to be why on earth anyone would change the system that worked wonderfully just on eve the tournament because the Ecuadorian right-back is fast), but the point is Totti did not light out the WC which was expected of him at least by his coach. Yes, he is great player who one day might do something great in the major tournament like Baggio and Rossi, but the point is he hasn't reached those height yet, in the major tournament at least. So IMO, he is still not in same league with Zizou, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo, Rivaldo (at his prime) and so forth.
For that reason at least, I don't see why Totti has to be a superior international talent to Del Piero, and after all, Alex has done well in many qualifiers and friendlies. Furthermore, I believe the reason Alex struggles with major tournament is not because of his lack of talent or mentality to deal with pressure, as his performances in the CL shows, but he lacks stamina to sustain his form through-out the season. With the exception 2001-2002 season in which he was injured during the mid-season, Alex has a tendency to drop-off his production towards the end. So in many ways, I feel sorry for him that big tournaments are never played in Sept-Oct time when he is in fine form banging in the goals. However, there is no denying Alex has failed miserably in the major tournaments.
Anyway, Totti is on good form, so this year could his year.

 

[Zizou]

incubo, did u watch dp in the 1996-1997.......

even if dp was surrounded by excellent players, he was the brightest one........all eyes were fixed on dp and he took the lights of roberto baggio himself..

Actually it was the 1997/98 season

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by NEDVED ] ++
incubo, did u watch dp in the 1996-1997.......

even if dp was surrounded by excellent players, he was the brightest one........all eyes were fixed on dp and he took the lights of roberto baggio himself.....

im trying not to defend dp as much as possible, but i guess hes better than totti in the past, now, no way, totti is playing very well...but incubo, i have a feeling that u dont like dp at all, u say that totti is better than dp in everything unless u have smthng to say..

You said history and you gave me one season.

You may be right that at this point over-all DP is better but your certainly NOT showing me why.

 

[satu]

Sally, hehe, yes it's pippO inzaghi, my apology.

Denco's and Jun-hide's post was great.

++ [ originally posted by Zizou ] ++
That was quite uncalled for as also I live outside Italy

As much coverage as you may get, you surely don't get the Italian 24 hour coverage of Serie A, but anyway that is not the main point.

Just cos you get all that coverage doesn't mean that everyone is lucky as you are. In England last season, Eurosport or whoever it was removed the Italian coverage and if I'm not wrong they only showed Serie A late at night one day a week.

You really cannot deny that Juve is a bigger team than Roma, therefore they get more exposure. That obviously leads to people knowing about the Juve players more than the Roma players. When I used to live in Canada, the slight Italian football news I would catch on tv would be about Juve/Milan/Inter, while Roma and Lazio were mostly mentioned only when they sold a player to the other teams.

Ooops, sorry then, I thought you live in Italy.
I know what you mean, it's just, being Totti, he gets the same exposure as other star, just the same as DP, Zidane, Figo and co. It doesn't matter if he is a Roma player. He gets more publicity than--let say--Pessotto or even Thuram. It's not that Juve thing.

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
Satu
I see by your arguements that your football knowledge is extremely limited. Its pointless for me to argue with you as you never back up your point but somehow offer this very weak analogy.
i.e. "Del Piero didn't score but HEY neither did Totti!"
Just avoid people who know what they are talking about because you have little if nothing to contribute to this discussion.

By saying 'ppl who know what they are talking about' you refer to whom exactly? yourself? :LOL: I LOVE it if there's any way I could avoid you, dont worry about it.
Furthermore, I gladly admit my extremely limited football knowledge, thank you, and that's why I currently surfing this forum, which I think have an abundance quality posters and just try to increase my knowledge on the issue, or so I hope.
And NO, dare I try to argue with you!
If you carefully read my posts before (but why would you? no pressure here), it was just because I was through this forum, which actually a Juventus forum, but mostly I see is DP bashing everywhere. This one was beyond limit for me, that Juve fans prefer Totti than DP. Well, as I state before, it's a personal preferences, but it will be highly appreciated if they can at least forget to dissing DP every next paragraph. I even read something about want to sell all of our 5 forwards just for one Totti. My!
Once again, what has Totti done to earn that?
Totti IS a great player, but so is DP, and DP has gave Juventini so many glorious moments and it's SAD that they choose to forget it.
As for you, Master, I have no problem with you as it's obvious that you're a milanista. You can hate DP all you want, I don't care. I simply answer you back there, because you quote me, no?
And since you're such an expert, I just ask you one simple question : What has Totti achieve in NT level to be considered better than DP? Yet you just gave Totti performed, DP didn't, which I think is not a better argument than mine (while I have limited football knowledge, remember?) but hey, don't bother answer, because from now on I try to avoid you, Master. So will ya excuse me?:sleepy:

 

[The Pado]

Satu, I think it would be easy to read this thread, as a new member, and get the idea that Juve fans prefer Totti to Del Piero, but this would be a mistake. Be assured that this particular has a much higher concentration of anti-Juve football fans than the other threads. I have not seen too many Juventini that prefer Totti to our ADP, and the J-fans that are of the belief that Totti is now performing at a higher level would still not want him in the side because it is universally acknowledged that Totti is an ass. Great footballer, unbelievable skills, but a real dolt. So, have no fear Del Piero is still a symbol of Juventus F.C. and number one in the hearts of its fans.

 

[satu]

Hi Padovano
Thank for explaining. I guess I'm just a little shock over this Totti-adore thread.
On 2nd thought, I don't have any right to judge ppl on how they may threat one of my fave player. So, I sincerely apologize if I seems to judge this board to be anti-DP.

Btw, Totti is indeed an ass. Amen to that.

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by Zizou ] ++


Hey wait a minute stop mis-quoting me guys.

I neither defended nor attacked DP because he's shown abroad and I surely wasn't tryng to convince anyone that they don't know about Totti.

But it's a fact that ANY Juve player gets more attention than any Roma/Lazio player outside of Italy. This doesn't mean that Roma and Lazio players are not mentioned, but not as much as Juve/Milan/Inter players.

You would think that but I can assure you that in England its not like that, when Italian football was shown on channel4, the team they used to show the most initially was Lazio because of Gazza, then they switched to Milan, they showed Milan so much that it became boring after a while. The season Roma won the league they showed Roma as much as any team
They never ever failed to show the Rome derby live
Juventus were shown but not quite as much as these other teams.
Totti will be a great player for the Nt as long as he his played in his prefered position behind the front 2 , if he is moved to the left wing as he was used in the first half against aberzaijan , then he would struggle and of cos as long as he is been told that he is the best and the team is built around him he would do fine.
Dp does not have that luxury , he would just have to make do fighting out qith other strikers to partner Vieri or moved to the left where is he told to help out Zambrotta

@Incubo, the cl final against Real, Dp picked up an injury in training and we all know what he is like when he is not alright and if I am not mistaken he never actually played again until he came on as a substitute in the wc against Cameroon
I cannot argue that he has been disappointing for Italy because of the kind of talent he has, and that is why he deserves to get stick as opposed to other strikers, as deep down whether you like him or not , he is a genuine talent but has failed to deliver when it does matter on a consistent basis.

In saying that, I feel he was ready more than anyother time to shine in 2002 but he was cruelly misused and to be honest I am not sure Trap would not develop cold feet again once the tournament starts in 2004
It does not bode well for Italy that he is almost certain to go after the tournament anyways

 

[KB824]

++ [ originally posted by satu ] ++
Hi Padovano
Thank for explaining. I guess I'm just a little shock over this Totti-adore thread.
On 2nd thought, I don't have any right to judge ppl on how they may threat one of my fave player. So, I sincerely apologize if I seems to judge this board to be anti-DP.

Btw, Totti is indeed an ass. Amen to that.

Yeah, well, apology not accepted.


And yes Totti is an ass, but he's the best ass that Italy has at at the moment, and I'm pretty sure he knows that.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by satu ] ++
Sally, hehe, yes it's pippO inzaghi, my apology.

Denco's and Jun-hide's post was great.



Ooops, sorry then, I thought you live in Italy.
I know what you mean, it's just, being Totti, he gets the same exposure as other star, just the same as DP, Zidane, Figo and co. It doesn't matter if he is a Roma player. He gets more publicity than--let say--Pessotto or even Thuram. It's not that Juve thing.



By saying 'ppl who know what they are talking about' you refer to whom exactly? yourself? :LOL: I LOVE it if there's any way I could avoid you, dont worry about it.
Furthermore, I gladly admit my extremely limited football knowledge, thank you, and that's why I currently surfing this forum, which I think have an abundance quality posters and just try to increase my knowledge on the issue, or so I hope.
And NO, dare I try to argue with you!
If you carefully read my posts before (but why would you? no pressure here), it was just because I was through this forum, which actually a Juventus forum, but mostly I see is DP bashing everywhere. This one was beyond limit for me, that Juve fans prefer Totti than DP. Well, as I state before, it's a personal preferences, but it will be highly appreciated if they can at least forget to dissing DP every next paragraph. I even read something about want to sell all of our 5 forwards just for one Totti. My!
Once again, what has Totti done to earn that?
Totti IS a great player, but so is DP, and DP has gave Juventini so many glorious moments and it's SAD that they choose to forget it.
As for you, Master, I have no problem with you as it's obvious that you're a milanista. You can hate DP all you want, I don't care. I simply answer you back there, because you quote me, no?
And since you're such an expert, I just ask you one simple question : What has Totti achieve in NT level to be considered better than DP? Yet you just gave Totti performed, DP didn't, which I think is not a better argument than mine (while I have limited football knowledge, remember?) but hey, don't bother answer, because from now on I try to avoid you, Master. So will ya excuse me?:sleepy:

Maybe its just me..but after reading this post twice I have no idea what this guy is saying. Better that way I guess.


Denco: No doubt he is a huge and RARE talent in Italy. To be fair to Trap I don't think Del Piero earned the right to start (firstly) not on the National team anyhow (I realize he was not really a starter) and secondly playing the way he did in the past he would have to work with whatever they "threw his way". I know this seems odd but its a question of earning the respect of the NT based on your experience with them and not your club.
I think people have this notion that I'm a super Totti fan. I am not. I realize DP's potential and have seen it. DP on his game and Totti on his game: my vote goes to DP. That said...DP "on his game" is happening less and less and Totti being more consistent, confident and then some only adds to Totti's value OVER DP.

 

[satu]

++ [ originally posted by USA Juventini ] ++
Yeah, well, apology not accepted.

Yeah, well, thanks anyway.

And yes Totti is an ass, but he's the best ass that Italy has at at the moment, and I'm pretty sure he knows that.

That he's the best ass that Italy has, I would never argue that.


Ah sorry, pls continue....

 

[Jun-hide]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


Maybe its just me..but after reading this post twice I have no idea what this guy is saying. Better that way I guess.


Denco: No doubt he is a huge and RARE talent in Italy. To be fair to Trap I don't think Del Piero earned the right to start (firstly) not on the National team anyhow (I realize he was not really a starter) and secondly playing the way he did in the past he would have to work with whatever they "threw his way". I know this seems odd but its a question of earning the respect of the NT based on your experience with them and not your club.
I think people have this notion that I'm a super Totti fan. I am not. I realize DP's potential and have seen it. DP on his game and Totti on his game: my vote goes to DP. That said...DP "on his game" is happening less and less and Totti being more consistent, confident and then some only adds to Totti's value OVER DP.

Well I can't argue with you on the basis of this year's performance. Totti is having one of the best season of his career no doubt. But lets not forget Alex was on hot form at the beginning of the season, and he only struggled since he came back from injury. The obvious problem with Alex is that he alternates too frequently being hot and cold, but then again I don't see any better solution other in Italia right now. Pippo? He is injured and lucky to get as many cap he did, IMO. Decent scoring record in the International stage but considering that it is bread and butter for him, it doesn't look to impressive. Montella? The guy wasn't given the opportunity, and certainly is class player in Serie A but he has shown nothing in the international stage to match Alex's goal scoring record. Cassano? Talented, and should certainly be chosen in the squad, IMO, but to leave out proven, popular and by far more accomplished Del Piero for a kid who has not won any major tournament upto now (maybe he will by the end of year) and known to be mentally fragile, would be a crimine by Trap. Talking about earning rights, shouldn't some famous name called "Bobo" do that too?. I hear he is little off form...
If Trap has Totti to be his man then obviously the whole team should be built aroud him, and I do believe Totti has the talent to come big in the major tournament. But instead of surrounding him with mediocre players, such as Pannucci, Materazzi, Doni, Inzaghi, Zanetti, Perrotta, albeit all good club players IMO, I think he could better by giving Totti better talents around him. Beside, I think Alex, at this moment at least, has far better and stronger credentials than any other player in his position. As long as he can regain form by June, I would certainly start him alongside Totti and Vieri.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I know that Del Piero chokes when it comes to the finals or the big stages for the NT, but I just think (I'm speaking here mainly about Juventus, I admit I am a bit off when it comes to the NT knowledge), that aside from his invisibility in the high pressure games or the finals, one should not forget that del piero has done fairly well to help us to get to the finals.

 

[Fred]

i dont know how a comparison rises between DP and Totti,Totti is much better he's the best Italian player now,and one of the best playmakers in the world.