Although i hate him but i think he is better than DP (3 Viewers)

KB824 · Jan 13, 2004

Give Totti the kind of players that DP has had around him, and you can guarantee that he would have more scudettos.

That is a fact that you cannot deny, that Alex has had much more support over the years.

IncuboRossonero · Jan 13, 2004

Your kidding right? All DP did in the tournaments was disappear despite being on the field. 98 he was just an extra body on the field. Injury..depression..whatever..he was out...of his game..period. 2000 Euro..Totti was the fanatsista for us..DP could have sealed the game and came up short. Aside from that he disappeared as always. 2002 DP finally scores..Totti sets up Vieri and they remind people of Conti-Rossi duo.
Are you seriously asking this question. Please. Go do some research then come back to me.

Totti was not hailed as the second coming of Baggio for the National Team and yet he has been the most crucial element for Italy. Sorry to say but the NT without DP in 98, 00 and even 2002 was not going to change a thing in terms of results. In fact, DP's goal was very nice but since Croatia lost to equador Italy was passing through even without DP'S goal. You cannot compare Totti's NT run to DP.

In the end its many players who contribute to qualifications and means little in how you are TRULY remembered for the NT because MANY players come and go in qualifications and the true test is the tournament. Players like Dino Baggio, Demetrio Albertini, Casiraghi, Massaro and now Corradi have helped Italy qualify. This arguement is weak and desperate and insignificant. Inzaghi was not called up to the squad for most of the year and then scored 5 goals in two games to seal Italy's qualification. So his NT contribution is greater than Vieri's?? He actually has the same amount of goals as Vieri in the NT. This means nothing. See the point.

By the way I notice you are confused in your over-all criticism. Your quoting Zizou who is defending DP but criticising my quotes in your post and mixing things up like saying that Juve is shown overseas. This was not even the point. Perhaps you should read the post more carefully because your basically attacking two posters and one how is agreeing with you.

The Pado · Jan 13, 2004

I think Satu just told all of you suckers!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to add to your point that Totti contributes nothing to the NT qualification effort because he is "injured". The same should also be said of Vieri. Both of these great players answer the bell at the big event, but do not contribute to the qualifying for the big events. And DP has won the same NT international trophies that Totti and Vieri have won - :down:

«ƒÕ®zå JüV€» · Jan 13, 2004

We know that for a fact and totti has said it himself hed rather win with roma than the national team (some1 around hee posted it i dont know where) anyways i think id prefer to see inzaghi instead of vieri seriously with inzhagi around we played better and we all saw the matches witth inazhagi in...

i think inzhagi and alex make a great contrubtion to the team! and totti well once in a blue moon he appear on the team and he dosent really derve it.

i think alex is far much better than totti and if alex had the chance to shine in the worldcup i bet u we could have reaced a bit further!!

satu · Jan 13, 2004

Who are you to tell me whether I'm joking or not?
And yes I'm seriously ask : what did Tottina has done more than DP in the NT? I can't go and do some research because it's not even written anywhere.
DP missed that 1 last chance goal in the Euro 2000 and yes that's written all over the world. If Tottina is such a great player, why didn't he sealed the game himself? afterall, that was already his time. DP was considered non favorite back then and only get short time of play.
The only time DP failed to fulfill expectation was back in WC 98, which he's just back from injury btw.

Well, all I can say is I don't even care if DP is not in the Euro 2004 squad. Why botter, you have Totti, he is indeed a crucial part of Italian NT.
And did I even bring DP's goal which btw save Italian's NT pride even if it's just a little? Nope. YOU bring that up just to show me how not worthy he and his goals to the NT.
Why can't I compare Totti's NT run with DP's? It's not like there's much different in achievements anyway.

Oh I can see your point. There are many players that contribute to the NT qualification. They come and go and noone will remember. But do you think your Tottina will even participate in the tournament if his team didn't even qualify?
The point is, you ppl keep denying to recognize DP's contibution for the NT, even if it's that little. He failed you back in WC 98, 1 missed last chance goal in Euro 2000, and who cares if he's the top scorer in Italy's journey to Portugal? Big deal.

Which poster did I attack btw?
YOU attack fans from outside Italy to have less knowledge than you because you happen to live in Italy.
Reread Zizou's post that I quote again dear, THAT's the one I want to comment. It's not like we have a DP exclusive show here that we all fall all over for him. Tottina get the same ammount of publicity as DP. They both are not that spice boy Beckham.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't even read that post of yours to even mixed you up with anything. Lets not overreacted.

satu · Jan 13, 2004

Oh and yeah USA Juventini, I agree that Totti MIGHT get more scudettos if he play with the players DP has around him. I just cannot guarantee that. Take note on the big MIGHT as we shall never prove that anyway.

DP has won with several different squad partners. From the day of Vialli till Nedved. It will be ignorant to say that he won more just because he has better squad member. Not even Zizou (I meant the one that play for Madrid) can lift Juve when DP injured. Have you forget the taste of Intertoto cup?

sallyinzaghi · Jan 13, 2004

psst, satu, it's pippO inzaghi, not pippa, or did you do that on purpose?

anyway, given the talents in totti and del piero I think its best if the azzurri would play both of them together!!! didn't we use them in the later stages of the qualifying round for euro04?? it worked quite well to my eyes!

denco · Jan 13, 2004

There is nothing in life that is a guarantee, the players you mentioned like Zizou, Vialli, Deschamps, Davids etc are not that superior to what Totti plays with. Since Capello went there which is like 4 or 5 years ago and even with Zeman, Roma have had fantastic players. How can you possibly dismiss the claims of Emerson as a great holding midfield player, Cafu and Candela as world class wingbacks, Montella as a competent striker more talented than Inzaghi
As a striker there is little to choose between Ravanelli and Delvecchio imo cos under Zeman when DelV was playing as a striker he was actually scoring goals

I do not remember maybe save for 97/98 season Juve playing better football than Roma

Do you think it very easy playing with the likes of Trezeguet who does little else apart from scoring.

No I do not think that Totti would have found it that easy playing for Juve as the team would not be built around him and his strengths and how much would you think he would have done

Intangibles: Dp took over the number 10 shirt of one of the greatest Italian players and that is Baggio, the pressure he has to play under as Baggio fans would never ever forgive him for doing that is always there

Totti took over from a great Giannini but its not the same thing is it? Its been well documented that Totti is a Roma boy and was one of the ball boys during Roma's European final against Liverpool so he had to play under less pressure and with the added bonus of being the central figure in his teams plans

Do you think Totti would get the central role with Juventus if Zizou was there?
How do u think he would perform if he was shifted to the wing?

Its very easy to analyse and say this person would win so and so if they were in so and so teams but would they have influenced it?
You cannot say that for sure

Its not easy playing in a midfield that is totally bereft of creativity as ours but look at Roma, they have Chivu who is as talented as any of our midfielders, Emerson who is pure gold, Mancini who is a great find and wonderful talent. In short Totti is surrounded by Brazilians and talented Italians save for Tomassi while Dp has to make do with a team whose creative source is high on energy and endeavour but low on innate creativity

@Incubo if you read Zizou's post properly he was not defending Dp, he was actually trying to convince us that Roma is not shown abroad and thats why we know little about Totti.
I agree with you with the Dp state of mind but don't you think that damaging your knee cruciate knee ligament is devastating as the only player who I have seen fully recover from that is Rvd but Dp does irritate in the way he takes way too long to get back to form

I tell you what, in Euro2000, the player who actually impressed in the eyes of my pals and most managers and analysts here was Fiore
In fact Martin Oneill and some other guy was like he did not know what the fuss was about Totti but thats their opinion

KB824 · Jan 13, 2004

Except for the fact that we agree on very little.

It was probably wrong of me to compare Totti's support to the likes of an Ancona, but I do feel that DP has had a lot more to work with over the years, which is natural, given the financial state of both clubs.

And yes, Totti NOW has that type of quality surrounding him, (which may ultimately lead to the bankruptcy of AS Roma. Oh, the price we pay for glory) but looking back, DP has had a virtual who's who of Italian and International stars at his disposal.

I mean, think about it. In the last 15 years, 11 scudettos were won between Milan and Juve. Certainly, those weren't accomplished with rosters that were bereft of stars and a very high payroll.

Jun-hide · Jan 13, 2004

Great post denco that was one hell of arugment.

.

Also lets not forget Del Piero is one of the leading Italian goalscorers of all time. I do not see Totti in that list. Furthermore, as for Totti being great international player, I am a bit sceptical. Sure he hasnt flopped like Del Piero, but beside from Euro 2000 and occasional brilliant matches in the qualification, he hasnt proved anything. Totti was mediocre in the WC 2002, and as "assumed" to be the leader of that group he must take the blame for some of Italia's failings. Who gets the blame? Yeah you guessed it, Del Piero, despite the fact that Trap was smoking something and barely used him in the entire tournament. Although some of the criticism is correct, I think Italians go too far into Alex hating and still hold a grudge against his misses in Euro 2000, and make them irrational justlike us Dp lover.

. Trap doesnt make it any better by constantly refusing, so it seems in the foreing media, to praise Alex while building Totti up with all his endeavour.
Anyway they are both great players and it is difficult to argue who is better player. I think the answer will come up once both players retire and hang up their boot, and before then, I'll just enjoy their fantastic skills.

.
BTW, this still doesnt mean Totti is not a jerk.

Zizou · Jan 13, 2004

That was quite uncalled for as also I live outside Italy :rolleyes:

As much coverage as you may get, you surely don't get the Italian 24 hour coverage of Serie A, but anyway that is not the main point.

Just cos you get all that coverage doesn't mean that everyone is lucky as you are. In England last season, Eurosport or whoever it was removed the Italian coverage and if I'm not wrong they only showed Serie A late at night one day a week.

You really cannot deny that Juve is a bigger team than Roma, therefore they get more exposure. That obviously leads to people knowing about the Juve players more than the Roma players. When I used to live in Canada, the slight Italian football news I would catch on tv would be about Juve/Milan/Inter, while Roma and Lazio were mostly mentioned only when they sold a player to the other teams.

Zizou · Jan 13, 2004

Hey wait a minute stop mis-quoting me guys.

I neither defended nor attacked DP because he's shown abroad and I surely wasn't tryng to convince anyone that they don't know about Totti.

But it's a fact that ANY Juve player gets more attention than any Roma/Lazio player outside of Italy. This doesn't mean that Roma and Lazio players are not mentioned, but not as much as Juve/Milan/Inter players.

KB824 · Jan 13, 2004

Glenn, I have to agree with you there.

Roma doesn't get even a fraction of the coverage that the big 3 get (Juve/Milan/Inter).

Case in point. Here in the US, where coverage of Serie A is scant to begin with, you hear nary a whisper about Lazio, Roma, Parma, etc.......

All of the Booster clubs here are either for Juve/Milan/Inter, and the majority of the followers, myself included, are not even from that region of Italy.

Zizou · Jan 13, 2004

Thanks for the backing

KB824 · Jan 13, 2004

Now, was that a sarcastic

, or a sincere

I can never tell.

I'm actually thinking of joining the Juventus FC club of Boston. $120.00 a year, and I get to sit in a bar with old men, watch Juve, drink wine, and argue.

Oh yeah, and Roberto Bettega usually comes by at the annual dinner.

IncuboRossonero · Jan 13, 2004

No Totti never said this. Let's not mangle words of players to fit our arguement. No player would say this if they wanted to ever see a national jersey again. The only players who say this are those who retire from their national team.

Secondly, I guess there are many blue moons in your part of the World because Totti has been a permanent fixture on the National team. Totti does not rarely appear. He is a first team player for the National.

IncuboRossonero · Jan 13, 2004

Satu

I see by your arguements that your football knowledge is extremely limited. Its pointless for me to argue with you as you never back up your point but somehow offer this very weak analogy.
i.e. "Del Piero didn't score but HEY neither did Totti!"
Just avoid people who know what they are talking about because you have little if nothing to contribute to this discussion.

IncuboRossonero · Jan 13, 2004

This is a not indicative of anything. In the last WC Totti was Vieri's anchor yet had little stats to show for it. Football is not a game of stats and furthermore Totti is not as pure of scorer as DP. This is not indicative of anything. Because Seedorf had more goals than say Rui Costa does not mean he was the better player. This is not the way to measure non-strikers.

Totti was regarded as one of the shining points of WC 2002 and he was barely blamed. In fact he was regarded as the most consistent. If you remember the media lay was mostly on Maldini. So I really don't know where your going with your "who is to blame". It was quite clear who the Italian media blamed.

If Totti was mediocre for Italy then DP was non-existent. That is a simple fact.

You should also realize something else. Del Piero is the most over-rated player on the National Team. No player has ever received the chance he has. So your Trap hating theory is either because you don't really follow the national team OR you are out of touch with his history.

He has continued to disappoint the team time and time again yet his call up is never questioned. 90% of players have to fight for their call up. Del Piero has always been prominent on the team no matter what and has started for the most part. NOTE: You can't be labeled a choker in games if you never play.

I think there should be skill testing questions to join these discussions :fero:

IncuboRossonero · Jan 13, 2004

I know .. my bad but there was some mis-understand because of another post in my mind while writing. But in fact I too was just extending his arguement. I know what he was saying. I just had a different spin on it.

As for DP: I have said it before ... the most lethal Italians ON THEIR GAME you can face are DP and Pippo. Say what you want but when DP is on his game and hot their is little he cannot do or get through. As for Pippo, everything he touches turns to "goal" in his "streaks".
That said I still believe his greatest rivalry is himself. He can't shake bad games, injuries and slumps and especially pressure off his back. Yes the injury had a larger impact than we know but his inability to "lead" in the big game is still very much an issue (Where was he in the CL final?) From that stellar performance versus Real to the Final. Its his curse all over again.
I will agree (with some reservation) that in 98 the injury was part of his inability to perform. However, this is very common with him in tournaments for the National. Its very common with him for big games.
I am quite hesitant to label Totti the more talented player because he has not demonstrated it. Each have their own abilities and assets but Totti's ability to shake off a bad game, media pressure (most of the time) and lack of long slumps makes him a more logical choice..at the end of the day.

Jun-hide · Jan 13, 2004

IncuboRossonero,

Yes, Del Piero is more of a goalscorer than Totti, and, yes, we are comparing oranges and apples, but the point is unlike many people say Alex has been very competent at the International stage, as he scored, if I am correct more goals than Pippo, Vieri, Montella, or other prominent Italian forward that I cant think of.
Beside, I do not regard Totti as a "pure" fantasy player, in the mold of Rui, Veron, Baggio, Kaka or Zizou. He is more of playmaker/forward type than a natural midfielder and many people praise Totti on basis of his fantastic goalscoring record in Serie A. So Totti's mediocre goal-scoring record is something that should be looked at even if I suspect that is mainly due to different he assumes in Azzurri compared to Roma.

Yes, I know many media did blame Maldini, not to mention the likes of Materazzi, and Panucci for the failings in the WC, however, Totti being billed up as the "ace" of the group has to take the blame for the failures. It's part of responsibility of supposedly being a leader. Beside, Totti performance was more solid than good or spectacular. His WC performance wasnt bad compared to his extremely "underperformed" team-mates. However considering he was billed as the Italian Zizou by none-less than Trap, his performance was disappointing which is similar to Alex with France 98. WC was a chance for Totti to prove himself that he is in the league of Zizou, Henry, Rivaldo (In his prime), and considering how the tournament developed, regardless of Moreno's blunders, he missed his opportunity. However, I do not doubt Totti has the talent to succeed in the major tournament but he has to prove it which is different matter. As Denco rightly pointed out, Fiore, IMO, with Toldo was the fulcrum of Euro 2000. 2004 will be Totti's year hopefully.

(which means Italia would have done well.) continued....

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