With you all the way Rebel. I have read your draft reply, it looks good, if needed I shall contribute in sharpening it up later this evening if possible. Thx mate 
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A Protest Letter to football365.com (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
- Start date
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Jun-hide said:
.It seems to me from the media that English fans appreciate different type of player than Italia or Spain.
I got an impression that English tend to like all action players who always get themselves involved in the play by tackling, build up, or shooting whereas the Latino people tend to prefer technically more gifted players with smart tactical awareness.
I know that different countries likes to play with different culture, but I truley belive at an international stage you can't win the match unless you can dictate the possession from the opposition. The reason why England can't win these tournament IMO is not because they can't score from those silly kicks 5 yards out but as a team they just cant keep the possession and do something with the ball. There is a clear lack of culture of sharing the ball and making clever give and goes, striker off the ball movement etc.
In Defence Of Juventus...
Being a regular follower of Italian football, I have always perceived a hefty anti-Juventus bias in Sheridan Bird's regular 'Gazzetta' features, so it came as no surprise to see point number 10 of his 'Ten Things We'll Like To See In Italian Football This Season'. Perhaps these blinkers have kept him from seeing and/or reporting on the following facts:
- the referees accused of fixing Juventus matches were all absolved of any wrongdoing. The only referee banned (De Sanctis) was done so for a match that neither involved nor affected Juventus.
- There was no proof that Juventus fixed a single match, and the court of appeals president admitted as such publicly. The court nevertheless relegated Juventus to Serie B for 'fixing the whole 2004-05 season'. They have yet to explain how it is possible to fix a whole season without fixing a single match.
- Juve were revoked their 2005-06 title even if there never was even any suspicion of wrongdoing in that season. The interim president of the Italian federation Guido Rossi, who used to be a member of Inter Milan's board, assigned this title to...Inter Milan!!
The press and pundits who had built up the whole case were the same people who looked the other way when Inter were playing a player with a false Italian passport to bypass the limit on the number of foreign players (Alvaro Recoba), and when Roma's president sent Rolexes to all the referees for Christmas a few years back. Neither Inter nor Roma were ever penalised for these incidents.
They are the same people who are still looking the other way now that AC Milan are still in both Serie A and the Champions League after their club official was intercepted in a phone call to a linesman directly asking him to favour AC Milan. None of the Juventus officials' phone calls intercepted (on which the case against them was built) was even made to a referee or linesman.
Juventus being relegated to Serie B had been decreed and known even before the sham trial began - the judges were reappointed by the aforementioned Mr Rossi just before the trial, and to make sure that the accusations stuck, clubs were not allowed to either call witnesses OR bring any evidence for defence (with the excuse that there wasn't enough time - fair trial isn't it?). After three months of media frenzy fed by people of Sheridan Bird's ilk in the press, public opinion in bars up and down the country would never have accepted a judgement favourable to Juventus, so Juventus were sent down regardless of the evidence available.
So maybe Mr Bird should change his point 10 to 'Non-match-fixing cheats Juventus Football Club playing in Serie B for being accused of being match-fixing cheats, as a punishment for being too successful and not allowing AC Milan or Inter Milan to win anything.'
I know this is Italian football not the Premiership, so this has about as much chance of getting published as a pro-Chelsea letter on an Italian website, but just trying to educate a few people while venting some anger.
James (Juventus in case nobody noticed) Micallef, Amsterdam
from the football365.com
..................................................................
Being a regular follower of Italian football, I have always perceived a hefty anti-Juventus bias in Sheridan Bird's regular 'Gazzetta' features, so it came as no surprise to see point number 10 of his 'Ten Things We'll Like To See In Italian Football This Season'. Perhaps these blinkers have kept him from seeing and/or reporting on the following facts:
- the referees accused of fixing Juventus matches were all absolved of any wrongdoing. The only referee banned (De Sanctis) was done so for a match that neither involved nor affected Juventus.
- There was no proof that Juventus fixed a single match, and the court of appeals president admitted as such publicly. The court nevertheless relegated Juventus to Serie B for 'fixing the whole 2004-05 season'. They have yet to explain how it is possible to fix a whole season without fixing a single match.
- Juve were revoked their 2005-06 title even if there never was even any suspicion of wrongdoing in that season. The interim president of the Italian federation Guido Rossi, who used to be a member of Inter Milan's board, assigned this title to...Inter Milan!!
The press and pundits who had built up the whole case were the same people who looked the other way when Inter were playing a player with a false Italian passport to bypass the limit on the number of foreign players (Alvaro Recoba), and when Roma's president sent Rolexes to all the referees for Christmas a few years back. Neither Inter nor Roma were ever penalised for these incidents.
They are the same people who are still looking the other way now that AC Milan are still in both Serie A and the Champions League after their club official was intercepted in a phone call to a linesman directly asking him to favour AC Milan. None of the Juventus officials' phone calls intercepted (on which the case against them was built) was even made to a referee or linesman.
Juventus being relegated to Serie B had been decreed and known even before the sham trial began - the judges were reappointed by the aforementioned Mr Rossi just before the trial, and to make sure that the accusations stuck, clubs were not allowed to either call witnesses OR bring any evidence for defence (with the excuse that there wasn't enough time - fair trial isn't it?). After three months of media frenzy fed by people of Sheridan Bird's ilk in the press, public opinion in bars up and down the country would never have accepted a judgement favourable to Juventus, so Juventus were sent down regardless of the evidence available.
So maybe Mr Bird should change his point 10 to 'Non-match-fixing cheats Juventus Football Club playing in Serie B for being accused of being match-fixing cheats, as a punishment for being too successful and not allowing AC Milan or Inter Milan to win anything.'
I know this is Italian football not the Premiership, so this has about as much chance of getting published as a pro-Chelsea letter on an Italian website, but just trying to educate a few people while venting some anger.
James (Juventus in case nobody noticed) Micallef, Amsterdam
from the football365.com
..................................................................
http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8744_1415066,00.html
Well written (you Gill?). Compaired to of some of the semi-literate ranting earlier in the thread, that letter is pure gold. Well said.
Well written (you Gill?). Compaired to of some of the semi-literate ranting earlier in the thread, that letter is pure gold. Well said.
@ rebel and most of you
I'm a fan of Juve not of Moggi or Giraudi!
I'm chearing for juve not automaticly for everyone involved with juve! These guys fucked up and personally I'm very angry with these guys. They have put Juve in a difficult situation. But it looks like everyone of you is more angry with the fact that we have to play in serie B next season. Its only logical after what they did.
For a lot of you realisme and supporting your team are two different worlds.
Same happend a couple of months ago when I said that we will have to go to serie B. I was concidered a traitor. Where will we play next season? right!
Apperently as a fan you have to deny everything what is said about your club and see it as a complot. (you look like a Landis fan)
fouls
Personally I'm thinking about the team we 're gonna have this season and about the financial situation aftre the scandal and hoping that we can leave serie B a.s.a.p. to play in the champions league within a couple of years with a brand new team.
sorry guys but as a daily reader of this forum i'm starting to get angry
I understand that you will pick on me now. You have to go somewhere with your frustrations, I hope you understand that I will probably not respond.
a Juve fan (no, not an Inter, Milan, Lazio, FC Rippa or wathever fan )
I'm a fan of Juve not of Moggi or Giraudi!
I'm chearing for juve not automaticly for everyone involved with juve! These guys fucked up and personally I'm very angry with these guys. They have put Juve in a difficult situation. But it looks like everyone of you is more angry with the fact that we have to play in serie B next season. Its only logical after what they did.
For a lot of you realisme and supporting your team are two different worlds.
Same happend a couple of months ago when I said that we will have to go to serie B. I was concidered a traitor. Where will we play next season? right!
Apperently as a fan you have to deny everything what is said about your club and see it as a complot. (you look like a Landis fan)
fouls
Personally I'm thinking about the team we 're gonna have this season and about the financial situation aftre the scandal and hoping that we can leave serie B a.s.a.p. to play in the champions league within a couple of years with a brand new team.
sorry guys but as a daily reader of this forum i'm starting to get angry
I understand that you will pick on me now. You have to go somewhere with your frustrations, I hope you understand that I will probably not respond.
a Juve fan (no, not an Inter, Milan, Lazio, FC Rippa or wathever fan
)
gusmano said:
@ rebel and most of you
I'm a fan of Juve not of Moggi or Giraudi!
I'm chearing for juve not automaticly for everyone involved with juve! These guys fucked up and personally I'm very angry with these guys. They have put Juve in a difficult situation. But it looks like everyone of you is more angry with the fact that we have to play in serie B next season. Its only logical after what they did.
For a lot of you realisme and supporting your team are two different worlds.
Same happend a couple of months ago when I said that we will have to go to serie B. I was concidered a traitor. Where will we play next season? right!
Apperently as a fan you have to deny everything what is said about your club and see it as a complot. (you look like a Landis fan)
fouls
Personally I'm thinking about the team we 're gonna have this season and about the financial situation aftre the scandal and hoping that we can leave serie B a.s.a.p. to play in the champions league within a couple of years with a brand new team.
sorry guys but as a daily reader of this forum i'm starting to get angry
I understand that you will pick on me now. You have to go somewhere with your frustrations, I hope you understand that I will probably not respond.
a Juve fan (no, not an Inter, Milan, Lazio, FC Rippa or wathever fan )
I'm a fan of Juve not of Moggi or Giraudi!
I'm chearing for juve not automaticly for everyone involved with juve! These guys fucked up and personally I'm very angry with these guys. They have put Juve in a difficult situation. But it looks like everyone of you is more angry with the fact that we have to play in serie B next season. Its only logical after what they did.
For a lot of you realisme and supporting your team are two different worlds.
Same happend a couple of months ago when I said that we will have to go to serie B. I was concidered a traitor. Where will we play next season? right!
Apperently as a fan you have to deny everything what is said about your club and see it as a complot. (you look like a Landis fan)
fouls
Personally I'm thinking about the team we 're gonna have this season and about the financial situation aftre the scandal and hoping that we can leave serie B a.s.a.p. to play in the champions league within a couple of years with a brand new team.
sorry guys but as a daily reader of this forum i'm starting to get angry
I understand that you will pick on me now. You have to go somewhere with your frustrations, I hope you understand that I will probably not respond.
a Juve fan (no, not an Inter, Milan, Lazio, FC Rippa or wathever fan
)
I'm just confused of the reason that makes you cheers for a club while you know they are cheating...
Believe me, if I had 20% belief that Juve fixed matches, I would have left watching football for ever...
Anyway, it became like a dispute in that website between Juve fans and Anti-Juve fans...
Here are the new reactions for what the Juventino James Micallef wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's Not Pretend Juve Aren't Dirty Cheats
In response to James Micallef's rant... don't you think its a bit ridiculous to respond to one silly, biased opinion with yet another silly, biased opinion? Poor innocent Juventus, victimised by the courts... yeah f**king right.
"None of the Juventus officials' phone calls intercepted (on which the case against them was built) was even made to a referee or linesman. "
Then who exactly to you think these phone calls were made to then? The players' grandmothers? Juventus were cleverer than that, the cheating b**tards.
Let them rot down there where they belong and maybe learn a lesson or two.
Ronan Dineen (disliking cheating b**tards and bored at work), Ireland
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...James Micallef makes some interesting points about the outcome of the corruption investigations in Italy and I agree with some of them. It does stink that AC are still in the Champions League (although, in fairness, that seems to be because Uefa hadn't spotted a bus-sized loophole that meant they couldn't keep them out, rather than any inherent bias) and I wrote in before about how dodgy it was that it seemed to be common knowledge what the punishments would end up being before the clubs had even appealed the initial decision.
What his support from Juve seem to have blinded him to is that, although it may be true that nobody from Juve got caught talking to referees, Moggi was caught talking to the bloke in charge of appointing referees for Juve's games. He didn't need to do anything as crass as talk to the refs themselves because he'd gone one better and made sure sympathetic refs were going to be appointed.
He tried to get a game against Fiorentina to go ahead despite the Pope's death because Fiorentina had two players out injured and another two suspended.
He locked a referee and his assistants in their room after one game, having berated them for their apparent unfairness to Juve, and wandered off with the key. He was a key figure at Juve and clearly not someone who intended to let things like the rules get in the way of Juve's success.
Also, Juve made it very clear quite early on in the proceedings that they would accept relegation to Serie B which would seem like a strange position for a club wholly innocent of any wrongdoing, as James seems to believe, to adopt wouldn't it?
Ben Smith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..James Millacef, get a grip.
Juve officials were tape recorded speaking to the head of the Italian referees association and picking their own refs. You state, "There was no proof that Juventus fixed a single match", but picking your own refs, as every fan suspects (even in England), can influence the results of games.
I'll give you two examples.
Firstly, everyone in Italian football knows that Juve are the biggest club and that Luciano Moggi (then general manager) was the most influential individual. If, as has been proved, it is the case that only Moggi-approved refs got to referee Juve games, then it follows that any ref who wanted to get the biggest games (involving Juve obviously) has to stay on his good side. How do they do that? By not giving penalties against Juve, not allowing contentious goals against, or ever giving the benefit of the doubt to the other team.
The refs are ambitious people at the pinnacle of their profession, they don't want to be reffing Lecce v Chievo every week just because they gave Trezeguet offside when it was a 50:50 call. They don't have to throw the game or 'fix' it, they just have to be seen to be fair in the eyes of an extremely biased individual. Hence, Juve get an uncanny run of luck lasting a decade and including at least one highly disputed title due to contentious penalty decisions.
Secondly, for those who think this could only happen in Italy, or that refs are all perfectly neutral, remember Arsenals 50th match in their unbeaten run - against Man U at Old Trafford. I'm not suggesting that there was any impropriety, or that the result was unfair (beyond the obvious incidence of cheating), but in that game the referee, Graham Poll, was changed at the 11th hour to 'Red' Mike Riley, notorious penalty awarder at Old Trafford.
Sure enough, the game turned on a contentious penalty where a 50:50 call was awarded to the home team in a high pressure situation. My point isn't that Riley cheated, I personally think he is just weak when faced with an angry crowd, but that every Gooner I know conceded the game the minute he was selected (after pressure by Alex Ferguson).
Just as Graham Poll is thought to be pro-Arsenal by Chelsea fans with short memories, Riley is held to be pro-Man U. Given that this is the case, wouldn't you want a say in who refs your matches? And if I could guarantee that Riley never reffed Arsenal again, would that not be 'fixing' it for Arsenal to get a better deal, even if my own perception was that it was only levelling the playing field?
Face facts, Juve are cheats. They got hit hardest because they were most culpable and they had profited the most. You are probably right that others have got off lightly, notably Milan, but, as the ManYoo of Italy, there were always going to be plenty of candidates to stick the boot into the 'Old Lady'.
Console yourself with the thought that in a league as corrupt as Italy Juve will probably win Serie B with a miraculous 50 point cushion after a record number of 0:0 draws involving their main rivals and with Collina reffing every game out of retirement.
Max Benjamin, just back from holiday in Italy.
http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8744_1415534,00.html
Here are the new reactions for what the Juventino James Micallef wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's Not Pretend Juve Aren't Dirty Cheats
In response to James Micallef's rant... don't you think its a bit ridiculous to respond to one silly, biased opinion with yet another silly, biased opinion? Poor innocent Juventus, victimised by the courts... yeah f**king right.
"None of the Juventus officials' phone calls intercepted (on which the case against them was built) was even made to a referee or linesman. "
Then who exactly to you think these phone calls were made to then? The players' grandmothers? Juventus were cleverer than that, the cheating b**tards.
Let them rot down there where they belong and maybe learn a lesson or two.
Ronan Dineen (disliking cheating b**tards and bored at work), Ireland
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...James Micallef makes some interesting points about the outcome of the corruption investigations in Italy and I agree with some of them. It does stink that AC are still in the Champions League (although, in fairness, that seems to be because Uefa hadn't spotted a bus-sized loophole that meant they couldn't keep them out, rather than any inherent bias) and I wrote in before about how dodgy it was that it seemed to be common knowledge what the punishments would end up being before the clubs had even appealed the initial decision.
What his support from Juve seem to have blinded him to is that, although it may be true that nobody from Juve got caught talking to referees, Moggi was caught talking to the bloke in charge of appointing referees for Juve's games. He didn't need to do anything as crass as talk to the refs themselves because he'd gone one better and made sure sympathetic refs were going to be appointed.
He tried to get a game against Fiorentina to go ahead despite the Pope's death because Fiorentina had two players out injured and another two suspended.
He locked a referee and his assistants in their room after one game, having berated them for their apparent unfairness to Juve, and wandered off with the key. He was a key figure at Juve and clearly not someone who intended to let things like the rules get in the way of Juve's success.
Also, Juve made it very clear quite early on in the proceedings that they would accept relegation to Serie B which would seem like a strange position for a club wholly innocent of any wrongdoing, as James seems to believe, to adopt wouldn't it?
Ben Smith
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..James Millacef, get a grip.
Juve officials were tape recorded speaking to the head of the Italian referees association and picking their own refs. You state, "There was no proof that Juventus fixed a single match", but picking your own refs, as every fan suspects (even in England), can influence the results of games.
I'll give you two examples.
Firstly, everyone in Italian football knows that Juve are the biggest club and that Luciano Moggi (then general manager) was the most influential individual. If, as has been proved, it is the case that only Moggi-approved refs got to referee Juve games, then it follows that any ref who wanted to get the biggest games (involving Juve obviously) has to stay on his good side. How do they do that? By not giving penalties against Juve, not allowing contentious goals against, or ever giving the benefit of the doubt to the other team.
The refs are ambitious people at the pinnacle of their profession, they don't want to be reffing Lecce v Chievo every week just because they gave Trezeguet offside when it was a 50:50 call. They don't have to throw the game or 'fix' it, they just have to be seen to be fair in the eyes of an extremely biased individual. Hence, Juve get an uncanny run of luck lasting a decade and including at least one highly disputed title due to contentious penalty decisions.
Secondly, for those who think this could only happen in Italy, or that refs are all perfectly neutral, remember Arsenals 50th match in their unbeaten run - against Man U at Old Trafford. I'm not suggesting that there was any impropriety, or that the result was unfair (beyond the obvious incidence of cheating), but in that game the referee, Graham Poll, was changed at the 11th hour to 'Red' Mike Riley, notorious penalty awarder at Old Trafford.
Sure enough, the game turned on a contentious penalty where a 50:50 call was awarded to the home team in a high pressure situation. My point isn't that Riley cheated, I personally think he is just weak when faced with an angry crowd, but that every Gooner I know conceded the game the minute he was selected (after pressure by Alex Ferguson).
Just as Graham Poll is thought to be pro-Arsenal by Chelsea fans with short memories, Riley is held to be pro-Man U. Given that this is the case, wouldn't you want a say in who refs your matches? And if I could guarantee that Riley never reffed Arsenal again, would that not be 'fixing' it for Arsenal to get a better deal, even if my own perception was that it was only levelling the playing field?
Face facts, Juve are cheats. They got hit hardest because they were most culpable and they had profited the most. You are probably right that others have got off lightly, notably Milan, but, as the ManYoo of Italy, there were always going to be plenty of candidates to stick the boot into the 'Old Lady'.
Console yourself with the thought that in a league as corrupt as Italy Juve will probably win Serie B with a miraculous 50 point cushion after a record number of 0:0 draws involving their main rivals and with Collina reffing every game out of retirement.
Max Benjamin, just back from holiday in Italy.
http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8744_1415534,00.html
