A present day Moses (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
you're like one of those wankers who go to parties and leave with a black eye
One can say the same about the Crusades also.
I'm not ignoring the religious aspect of the crusades, but when one looks at the leading figures and the majority of the crusaders, it can be easily noticed that the crusades were most attractive for the barons who were looking for more land, for the peasants who were running away from the usurers, from debts and from poverty and it was especially attractive for the younger siblings, who due to the right of primogeniture (the right of the firstborn son), where the oldest son was inheriting everything, were forced to look for land and wealth somewhere else.
After all, look at the greatest success of the crusaders : invading Byzantine, the Christian Byzantine.
What i want to say is that no war was purely religious, but religion was used as a tool to attract the masses.
Then again, the history of the Ottoman Empire says something else. Those Christians who accepted islam were given all the rights the leading class enjoyed, while those who didn't convert to Islam were always oppressed, killed, forced to pay much higher taxes and many more taxes. And it was happening for 5 centuries, until the first decade of the 20th century.
Also, since they were spreading Islam (not in a peaceful way) can't we say that these wars were also religious? (i'm asking this since you said the Crusades were the last purely religious wars)
I'm not ignoring the religious aspect of the crusades, but when one looks at the leading figures and the majority of the crusaders, it can be easily noticed that the crusades were most attractive for the barons who were looking for more land, for the peasants who were running away from the usurers, from debts and from poverty and it was especially attractive for the younger siblings, who due to the right of primogeniture (the right of the firstborn son), where the oldest son was inheriting everything, were forced to look for land and wealth somewhere else.
After all, look at the greatest success of the crusaders : invading Byzantine, the Christian Byzantine.
What i want to say is that no war was purely religious, but religion was used as a tool to attract the masses.
Then again, the history of the Ottoman Empire says something else. Those Christians who accepted islam were given all the rights the leading class enjoyed, while those who didn't convert to Islam were always oppressed, killed, forced to pay much higher taxes and many more taxes. And it was happening for 5 centuries, until the first decade of the 20th century.
Also, since they were spreading Islam (not in a peaceful way) can't we say that these wars were also religious? (i'm asking this since you said the Crusades were the last purely religious wars)
So no, because religion is by definition exonerated of all blame by the religious apologists. According to them, because there were non-religious motives to a war as well, it means the war had nothing to do with religion. Just like Northern Ireland, nothing to do with religion whaaaatsoever. It's just a fantastic coincidence that the warring factions are divided by religious lines.
You've got to take into account the superstitious nature of leading societies 1000 years ago. Even up to times of Shakespeare this is evident in his texts with references to the power of witchcraft. If the Crusades weren't purely driven by their "right to the holy land", they were certainly still the primary reason behind it.
In regards to the Ottoman empire, the same can also be said. The oppression of christians had started when religion was taken as literally as possible. Unfortunately as the nature of general society evolved into a more accepting one, this tradition had already been well embedded in the nature of the Ottoman Empire. Also, it should be noted that their was a strong rivalry with Greece. They had fought christian nations for hundreds of years. That would be a political reason driving their hatred of christianity.
In regards to the Ottoman empire, the same can also be said. The oppression of christians had started when religion was taken as literally as possible. Unfortunately as the nature of general society evolved into a more accepting one, this tradition had already been well embedded in the nature of the Ottoman Empire. Also, it should be noted that their was a strong rivalry with Greece. They had fought christian nations for hundreds of years. That would be a political reason driving their hatred of christianity.
Only reading the first 3 lines of his post and then replying isnt really an intelligent way to go however.He does make a very valid point about Martin,Bes,Seven and now even you coming into the religious forum,bringing up everything negative about religion(which btw,happens because people misinterpret religion and turn into fundamentalists and extremists) and then presenting it in a manner to show that this is the one and only side to it all.
Misusing something does not necessarily make the thing itself bad,and that is something which every atheist on this forum ignores very conveniently.
Misusing something does not necessarily make the thing itself bad,and that is something which every atheist on this forum ignores very conveniently.
No, don't throw around assumptions. I grew up with religion as a major part of my life, forced upon me but willing to accept it, so don't think that I "misinterpret" religion. That's a foolhardy argument that people use because they've got nothing else.
Now, if this was a Christian forum, they would tell me I'm going to hell. That's what you call persecution.
Now, if this was a Christian forum, they would tell me I'm going to hell. That's what you call persecution.
For the millionth time, yes it does. It is religion's rules that people not think for themselves that is the harmful part. How many times do you need to hear this?
As for anth_nenna, he can figure out what he wants to say and then open a thread with his message. Rather than do 10 minutes of ranting off topic.
As for anth_nenna, he can figure out what he wants to say and then open a thread with his message. Rather than do 10 minutes of ranting off topic.