A Pathetic democracy!!! (6 Viewers)

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Jul 12, 2002
5,666
Altair said:
first, how arrogant of you to compare the trials of whole nation to your petty life, yes it's petty when compared to that of 8 million people.
But, each of those 8 million people has to decide for themselves what to do about it. Deciding to blow up some cafe's is pretty fucked up.

Altair said:
Secondly, good thing you brought up the genocidal tendencies of europeans(i'm european too so dont bother) whose history is hardly fit for one condemning violence in a struggle.
No doubt, european conquest was a ridiculous genocide. I'm not arguing it wasn't or that it was jsutified.

Altair said:
Lastly, i will take you up on that offer of sharing, How about you share with me your freedom. 3 days a week your life is mine i shall do whatever i want with it. throw in also your food, wife/girlfriend and anything you might possess: how more ridiculous can you get??
You find me, and I'll let you live in my house, and use my belongings. IF you want my wife, you'll have to talk to her about that. How much more ridiculous can you get? It was a metaphor...
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
ReBeL said:
That makes us go back to the first post in this thread...

Why do the Western countries deal with Palestinians and Israelis using dual standards, assuming that both of them use the same way of terror as you just said??
Probably because Palestinians are Muslim Arabs. That doesn't make it right, but you asked.

ReBeL said:
Well, this is EXACTLY the main obstacle in the fake peace process which died afew years ago...

Israelis think they can live without giving Palestinians any land. Well, I cant say anything but WHAT A NICE COMPROMISE you offer there!!!
They can live without giving Palestinians any land. The fact that they've offered it, is therefore a compromise. Palestine responds by electing a government with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. That's not compromise.


ReBeL said:
I'm not whinning, you .................................

I'm talking about my REAL father's house which was built in 1966. And he couldn't go back to it since 1967.

Until 1985, we had to pay the debts for building that house which we can't even see since 1967...

I'm not talking about a fairy tale where I'm sad because of the imaginary events in it where the hero can't marry the stupid princess. I'm talking about my own life here and not whinning.
I know you're talking about your own life, that only makes it whining more. Why don't you go do something about it? For me, I'd start by voting for a government that isn't a terrorist organization. But, I suppose that you'd prefer to blow something up?


ReBeL said:
Another magical question!!!

How could 200 countries in the World be self-governed without those stupid Zionists??

Why should Palestine be different than all countries??
Because Palestine was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, which in turn was conquered by the Allies in WWI. After this, the Zionist movement turned international focus to Palestine. Who can say what would have happened if not for that. Most probably, Palestine would still be a part of Jordan.
 

Muha

The Head Physio
Feb 25, 2004
1,546
PhRoZeN said:
Now that you have brought up teh famous word terrorism which israel most commonly uses to back its causes in killing many civilians.. why not define the word itself.

Here is a definition of terrorism according to dictionary.com.

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

To say that Israel is not doing terrorism is either based on useless knowledge or speculating on ones inner beliefs and stubborn desires. Firstly lets break this definition up... "The unlawful use"..

Now I have used unlawful many times I have already prooven that the actions done by Isarel are worldwide reknowned to be unlawful.. if you dont recognise this then please refre back to the U.N Acts that I brought up earliar. Next is the word "threatened". Israel has threatened to do many tasks where civilians are the cause of affliction. However on this matter I must admit Israel may perform more unlawful actions that actions in which they may threat, this is simply because a person who threats is usually a person who gives a warning to the opposition. However time and time again we dont see this as its a matter of instant action when Israel decide to take over a palestinian camp or may as well kill a few youngsters on the streets who are "performing terrorism.. by throwing mere stones at the soldiers".

Moving on I dont think I need to go onto teh next disjuntion which states the word "violence" I have already specified what kidn of violence occurs as a result of israels dominant tyranny against teh palestinians civilians. The next disjunction mentions against people or property. Notice that in this case it is both, its against people and their property and as a result is what would be reknowned to be truely living by the definition of terrorism. Intention of intimidating.. thee few words certainly round up some of israels actions, they do intend to intimidate and a response from the palestinians.. and for obvious reasons they achieve that, tehre is never a case where they would sit back and accept a suicide bombing.. of course not its not in their nature, theyw ont sit back and say to the rest of the world look, this time I wont fire back simply because I am a peaceful person and want to resolve the matter. Nevertheless we see strikes performed constantly against areas where residents live who may as a result have their feelings or sentinements regarding peace shattered. Now I see the question popping up.. well why on earth dont palestine do that?.

Reasons are a) They are not a democratic nation, infact they aint even regarded as a nation. b) History has shown they have followed such principles but it resulting to be only thwarted back in their face.. I earliar prooved this with the Oslo agreement. c) They dont have enough power and resources to help and refute the oppression which they face daily.. on the contrary israel does not face such oppression simply because they are divided state and lives in independence. I have already prooven this by the the wall division and secondly by the large amount of support provided by the Americans. d) They do not have enough power to spread the news of such ceasefire or resistance which they have stopped and I have also proven this with my post on how media is controlled. And foremost e) They are as a result of israels actions losing more civilians by both methods killing and finally capturing, this as a result psychologically provides the average palestinian no belief in peace.

Moving on.. now armed resistance is clearly a matter of what a person has in terms of weaponry is what he can use. Also whe in idelogical or guerilla warfare whatever you may use to call it..Such resistance only produces the best results through its yield in productivity. What do I mean by this? As I said earliar.. To fight with a klashinov or any other gun would lead in more deaths for the palestinians. These deaths would be very easy for a nation like israel who are one of the most armed country in the world and the ONLY country that actually posess nuclear warfare in the arab region. Ignoring the nuclear warfare matter it has some of teh most sophisticated weaponry that it can fire missles and as a result very easily kill the "guerillas". Now only solution in which they can actually create a greater yield of production and outcry there voice in armed resistance is by yes indeed the word you hate the most and one that brings shivers across your spine... suicide bombing. I have already said earliar on that I hate that tactic, nevertheless it remains one of the only choice to actually bring some sort of "shiver" to the israelis. This is more of a psychological war but at the end it is seen on ground of this as terrorism. Palestine itself does not have an army unfortunately simply because it is not a clear recognised state therefore the people who may fight against the oppression it country recieves is clearly regarded as the army of the people as as time has gone on, this itself has been proven with the elections with hamas. People are losing the feeling of peace and rightly so, simply because the world has not done enough to help both nations live upto their agreement. Once again the Oslo agreement was vital to this yet it was broken by guess who. I have already prooven this if unsure then go back to my original post a few pages back. Therefore very clearly and precisely they are both regarded to be the same, infact they both are the same, you wont a single war out there in the world in which innocent people have not died, terrorism itself exists amongst many wars ane sometimes equally on both sides and sometimes not.. in this case it is very clear, its israel who has teh upper hand in terrorism, why you ask? as I have prooven by teh definition they have lived to proove all the disjunctions in the sentence and rhetorically brought it to be a conjunction of all the sentence. This is by not only destroying peoples home.. but also killing them. As a result what the palestinians have done is just killed, some may say brutal some may say may say its nothing compared to being killed cold blooded, that itself shall remain debated.

As for your your second mini paragraph, yes they aint exactly freedom fighters but they are trying to resolve an issue in retaliation, to some extent this is freedom because freedom will never exist but to resist an occupation, to resist the opression, to resist the tyranny is itself freedom, it may bring more harm in the end but every palestinian and every person who may be victimised would feel the exact way, they seek help, no help is provided as a result more dollars are sent to israel for ammunition. They seek support, no support is sent, they have no alternative, they have sat on desks, worn there favourite suits but nothing has helped. The people of PLO were nothing more than money scvangers themselfs and to a certain extent played a vital role and helping israel more than their own people. The people who may be regarded as terrorists now are infact more related to their people, they care more, they certainly would give there live for them, which shows that they are prepared to do absolutely anything to gain freedom and yes even if it involves an eye for an eye.

The people who blow themselves up and try to take as many jews as possible with them are not freedom fighters. Their actions do not free anyone. They are simply exacting the revenge that they feel entitled to, in the manner prescribed by their culture and religion. You would have to be a bigger fool than I think you are to be under the impression that suicide bombing achieves anything for the Palestinian cause, because it certainly does not. As for your mini statement regarding me to be a bigger fool or whatever, I dont really care what you may think of me, or any other pro palestinian, the bottom line is they really dont have much of an alternative, the only alternative is.. and I repeat is more international pressure, especially on the country who has broken countless UN regulations.

The president of that country nevertheless portrays his hatred and as always has sparked his feelings amongst the residence of israel from the early days, Sharon told magazine Ouze Merham in 1956 "I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do." There are other statements made by Sharon and his cabinet with similar ideology; however, one is enough. Though Sharon's hatred for Palestinians is documented, the United States continues to support Israel. President Bush even went so far as to call Sharon a nice and peaceful man in a speech of his on 17 April 2004. This comment on Sharon’s character is an abomination to any peace loving person. I say no more, let your own minds percieve what you may be destined to feel...
:thumbs:

Hats off gentlemen
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
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    Ian said:
    Probably because Palestinians are Muslim Arabs. That doesn't make it right, but you asked.
    Thanks...

    This is exactly what I made this thread for.

    All the Western countries (Except Norway) are dummies for the stupid Bush and claim that they're democratic and keen to spread democracy and freedom all over the World...

    Ian said:
    They can live without giving Palestinians any land. The fact that they've offered it, is therefore a compromise. Palestine responds by electing a government with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. That's not compromise.
    I replied on this before. No more addition you came up with this post...

    Ian said:
    I know you're talking about your own life, that only makes it whining more. Why don't you go do something about it? For me, I'd start by voting for a government that isn't a terrorist organization. But, I suppose that you'd prefer to blow something up?
    If it was to me, I would carry the gun since many years ago, but you seem not knowing that the Arab countries protect Israel more than Israel itself...

    Ian said:
    Because Palestine was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, which in turn was conquered by the Allies in WWI. After this, the Zionist movement turned international focus to Palestine. Who can say what would have happened if not for that. Most probably, Palestine would still be a part of Jordan.
    Pathetic piece of information you had there...

    Just go back to the nineteenth century and find out the population in both Jordan and Palestine...

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Finally, after I proved to you that West doesn't care about democracy itself but care about USA's economic and political friends, I can't see any reason for continuouing in this except if somebody brings something which has a value added to the discussion...

    Nice to read all the debates in this thread, guys:tup:
     

    un altro alex

    Senior Member
    Jan 15, 2006
    633
    ReBeL said:
    Finally, after I proved to you that West doesn't care about democracy itself but care about USA's economic and political friends, I can't see any reason for continuouing in this except if somebody brings something which has a value added to the discussion...
    that's right, the only countries out there who are just DYING for democracy are the arab ones.. i mean Iran, Palestine, Libya..
    oh and Saddam was a big fan of democracy what with the "whoever disagrees with my government policy i let my son torture him in the basement" policy. very democratical. evil Westerners.
     

    - vOnAm -

    Senior Member
    Jul 22, 2004
    3,779
    Who ever said democracy was evil?

    But Democracy is a tool for politics and especially economics, when you have power to influence mass people with television, news reports and the like you are able to create a false reality...this is how I believe to some extent western democracy is bieng used..

    With western democracy installed, the west can control other nations by manipulating news and spreading ideas/cultures that are not suited for the region's values. Any notion to prevent such spreading would be "un-democratic" thus evil an inhumane.

    Here I guess when I say the west I pramarily mean the US.
     

    PhRoZeN

    Livin with Mediocre
    Mar 29, 2006
    15,893
    un altro alex said:
    that's right, the only countries out there who are just DYING for democracy are the arab ones.. i mean Iran, Palestine, Libya..
    oh and Saddam was a big fan of democracy what with the "whoever disagrees with my government policy i let my son torture him in the basement" policy. very democratical. evil Westerners.
    They are awful examples, honestly. Despite Iran proberly saying its following democracy it by no means requires democracy or even runs it, in actual fact it runs on shariah, (islamic law) just like many of the arab countries, there isnt a single arab country that actually lives upon democracy but infact want to bring certain aspects of it into their country. Unfortunately its the leaders in most of the arab countries that require such laws. In egypt there was a national vote over democracy and shariah and shariah won the vote. However as dispicable this may have sounded the president Hosni mubarak still declined his peoples vote and is wanting democracy. This is mainly down to how the income is generated in his country. As for the benefits of shariah against democracy I will post these sometime in my upcoming posts so please bare patience with me as Im facing exams soon :D.

    As for the palestinian example they really dont care, for them any govermental approach in gaining their land and stop the oppression will do. They gave a chance to "democracy" when PLO was in power but it failed.. now they are in reality giving a chance to mainstream "shariah", "political" party under hamas. Although the shariah is the basis of the countries principles as I said earliar none of the nations really want or require democracy over their people. They want a portion of it so that they can communicate and benefit on the world economy. As for saddam, his a lost cause, he doesnt even know what his wearing half of the time.. once again another bad example. Just to add I have read some of the replies by the pro israelis. However I dont think I may reply till week or so especially as I earlier suggested I have examinations coming up so for all those who have replied to my posts or still havent and are side stepping it, you will recieve your replies in due time.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    ReBeL said:
    Thanks...

    This is exactly what I made this thread for.

    All the Western countries (Except Norway) are dummies for the stupid Bush and claim that they're democratic and keen to spread democracy and freedom all over the World...
    Actually, I agree, for the most part. There are many countries which are not pawns of the United States. Unfortunately, they don't have the power to change the situation. IF that's what this thread was about, then we are in agreement: The doublestandard applied by International Bodies and Western Governments is dispicable, racist, malicious, and just generally fucked. I see no need to conitnue hostilities. You and I simply had different biases on specific points. In general, I think we agree on what needs to happen.

    ReBeL said:
    Finally, after I proved to you that West doesn't care about democracy itself but care about USA's economic and political friends, I can't see any reason for continuouing in this except if somebody brings something which has a value added to the discussion...

    Nice to read all the debates in this thread, guys:tup:
    Indeed.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    - vOnAm - said:
    Who ever said democracy was evil?

    But Democracy is a tool for politics and especially economics, when you have power to influence mass people with television, news reports and the like you are able to create a false reality...this is how I believe to some extent western democracy is bieng used..

    With western democracy installed, the west can control other nations by manipulating news and spreading ideas/cultures that are not suited for the region's values. Any notion to prevent such spreading would be "un-democratic" thus evil an inhumane.

    Here I guess when I say the west I pramarily mean the US.
    Indeed, please say the US. If talking about the cultural and economic war that the US is waging world wide, then that's something. What you said was spot on, but it's far worse.
     

    Snoop

    Sabet is a nasty virgin
    Oct 2, 2001
    28,186
    Vinman said:
    I cannot understand how Palestinians parents can let/encourage their children to become suicide bombers. I would absorb a million bullets to protect my child...my life means less to me than my daughter's, and I would gladly give it up to protect her.

    If the Palestinian parents want to see someone die for their cause, let them blow themselves up, and leave the kids alone !!!
    100% agree with you. I saw once a woman recording herself on Camera with her two sons, and telling that she is sending them to bomb somewhere, she seemed happy and proud, didn't cry at all.. it was more like she is the one who is sending them, like ordering them to go, and not the kind that her sons want to do that, and she is sad for that.

    what kind of a human is that? fuckin Idiot, if she loves her country that match, why she didn't do it herself "for her kids' future", assuming that it will make the country any better :disagree:

    and guess what? I think she is a member of the government (hamas), or maybe she was a candidate.. :tdown:
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
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    snoop said:
    100% agree with you. I saw once a woman recording herself on Camera with her two sons, and telling that she is sending them to bomb somewhere, she seemed happy and proud, didn't cry at all.. it was more like she is the one who is sending them, like ordering them to go, and not the kind that her sons want to do that, and she is sad for that.

    what kind of a human is that? fuckin Idiot, if she loves her country that match, why she didn't do it herself "for her kids' future", assuming that it will make the country any better :disagree:

    and guess what? I think she is a member of the government (hamas), or maybe she was a candidate.. :tdown:
    Ok, you're talking here about Mrs. Farahat...

    This lady had 3 sons, 2 of them were killed by a missile launched by an Israeli plane afew years ago...

    Before around a year, her last son came to her and told her he would bomb himself. She thought and thought, but she couldn't forbid him so she kissed her martyr son and prayed for God to accept him in the heaven...

    It's not like she forced him to do so anyway... When you have your ONLY 2 brothers killed by a stupid misslie then you'll think of the target of your whole life, and that's what happened exactly to this martyr...

    This lady had a very huge respect between the Palestinian people in Gaza because of her PATIENCE and BELIEF in God, not because she forced her son to kill himself...

    So, Hamas chose her to be a candidate in the elections to represent a very forgotten group of the whole people (Martyrs' Relatives). Of course, she succeeded and started her struggle to gain some rights for the martyrs' beloved people...

    This is the only lady that knew about her son's intention to bomb himself in the Palestinian regions, Vinman...

    Other martyrs' families knew from news that their beloved ones has bombed themselves and they were in pain just like any human in their place, but:

    FREEDOM is EXPENSIVE, my friend...
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
    Moderator
    Oct 11, 2005
    75,253
    ReBeL said:
    Thanks...

    This is exactly what I made this thread for.

    All the Western countries (Except Norway) are dummies for the stupid Bush and claim that they're democratic and keen to spread democracy and freedom all over the World...


    I replied on this before. No more addition you came up with this post...


    If it was to me, I would carry the gun since many years ago, but you seem not knowing that the Arab countries protect Israel more than Israel itself...



    Pathetic piece of information you had there...

    Just go back to the nineteenth century and find out the population in both Jordan and Palestine...
    So the Turks didn't conquer Palestine or Palestine wouldnt be part of Jordan?
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
    Moderator
    Oct 11, 2005
    75,253
    - vOnAm - said:
    Who ever said democracy was evil?

    But Democracy is a tool for politics and especially economics, when you have power to influence mass people with television, news reports and the like you are able to create a false reality...this is how I believe to some extent western democracy is bieng used..

    With western democracy installed, the west can control other nations by manipulating news and spreading ideas/cultures that are not suited for the region's values. Any notion to prevent such spreading would be "un-democratic" thus evil an inhumane.

    Here I guess when I say the west I pramarily mean the US.
    Then stop saying West. If you google western governments you will find many different types of democratic governments. They aren't all the same. Only in that they have a Senate to check the primary ruler.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
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    Enron said:
    So the Turks didn't conquer Palestine or Palestine wouldnt be part of Jordan?
    Both of Jordan and Palestine were part of Ottoman Empire during the period 1516-1916...
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,510
    I think democracies are good political systems, but they're IMO overrated and too many people presume they have a monopoly on "good government". (Now if that ain't the furthest from the truth...)

    Most of what I have seen of the U.S. leadership's ideal for democracy is an export like a McDonald's Big Mac, laden with all the trappings.

    But let's not kid ourselves either. The world has always danced to the tune of whatever superpowers were in place. The Spanish, the Dutch, the English, the Soviets, the Americans... To think that the U.S. political leadership is going to be any different by not acting out of self-interest is a bit naïve.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
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  • Thread Starter #577
    swag said:
    I think democracies are good political systems, but they're IMO overrated and too many people presume they have a monopoly on "good government". (Now if that ain't the furthest from the truth...)

    Most of what I have seen of the U.S. leadership's ideal for democracy is an export like a McDonald's Big Mac, laden with all the trappings.

    But let's not kid ourselves either. The world has always danced to the tune of whatever superpowers were in place. The Spanish, the Dutch, the English, the Soviets, the Americans... To think that the U.S. political leadership is going to be any different by not acting out of self-interest is a bit naïve.
    I'm not blaming USA because it's the main beneficiary out of all the political games in the World...

    The thing I don't understand is what a country like Italy is getting from participating in a war like the Iraqi war!!!
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
    Moderator
    Oct 11, 2005
    75,253
    ReBeL said:
    I'm not blaming USA because it's the main beneficiary out of all the political games in the World...

    The thing I don't understand is what a country like Italy is getting from participating in a war like the Iraqi war!!!
    New Olive Garden franchises in every major city.:D
     
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