A Pathetic democracy!!! (4 Viewers)

[ReBeL]

Just an idea here. What would happen if the Arab population in the Isreal were to unite and form some sort of organized Congress and write an official declaration of Independence, asking for a specific area of Isreal? Do you think that could ever happen?

Nice question, Enron...

I'm in work right now, but I feel this debate is so constructive today

So, I'll reply to you on this evening regarding this issue...

Sorry, man...

 

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[Enron]

Yes I believe we have had a break through with our late night, your early morning, debates. I look forward to your reply.

 

[Enron]

Thats spot on what I meant too (in bold)

With Authoritarian (as the name suggest) the well bieng of the people is more or less dependant on 1 person or a certain group of people. While it may bring prosperity it may also bring oppression, depending on who rules.

Now to me the difference is that with Authoritarian governments, things happen quickly...bad governments are overthrown quickly but good governments fall down quickly too (like your point in single leader coups).

Democracy in the other hand works very slow. When good leaders are in place it will take time before they can be overtaken by bad leaders, but once bad leaders are there, it will also take alot of time before good leaders can be inplace again. (like whats happening to your government now )

For me the formula is that in the begining stages (underdeveloped or developing nations) it is best to keep alot of Authoritarian system in the government and then slowly as the country develops and its people learn and educate themselves, establish a democratic system, over time. This is the quickest was for a country to get on its feet and stay there.

The flaw is that in the begining Authoritarian system, WHO will lead? It takes a good leader to start but with that system you are not guarenteed a good leader. So it is somewhat risky, but then again when you have a full democracy, not the best leaders may be chosen anyways since the people might not know(educated enough to see) who is the best for them.

Malaysia gets my vote for a study(model) of how Democracy can and should be established in a country without ALL of the exact ingredients as in the US or any other country for that matter.

I do agree with you on the problems with speed of the development of particular governments. As a witness to 6 backward years I know the downfalls of democracy. But even if you have a terrible leader, a solid system of checks and balances can keep him somewhat in check and the country more or less stable. In democracy no one man has all the power and because of our election system no one man will keep it forever. A roll over of power is always certain but as you said it does take a while.
Another problem with the idea of melting and Authoritarian government into a democray is that once you have the Authoritarian leader, whats to say he or she will want to relinquish power? If one person has total command what is keeping them from having it always and forever? Im not even sure of this answer myself. Perhaps one of us can enlighten the other.

 

[- vOnAm -]

My old soccer coach is from Palestine. So trust me Ive heard the horror stories. He tells one of being 6 or 7 and playing football in the streets only to have soldiers shoot his ball during their game.

My main problem is that posters seem to be condoning or even glorifying bloodshed. Violence is sometimes necessary but should never be condoned. I think the problem we have here is the notion of revenge in eastern and western cultures. What do you think?

Yes ofcourse, Violence should never be incouraged...but all of us (EAST, WEST, NORTH, SOUTH) understand that it is legitimate to use it, for defensive purposes.

And yes there is a problem there regarding revenge and I think one reason it hasn't stopped is that there is no Referee here. The US acts like the world's police but it isn't behaving so. All modern, wealthy support seem to go in favour of Isreali without proper judgement on the whole situation. As if the western world labelled Palestinians the bad guys before they tried to understand what has happened and what is happening.

Referee is what the United Nations should stand for, but we have politics in this world, and as much as anybody wants to deny, we know the US hold many-many countries by the BALLS because of their economic power. Which then hinders many countries from bieng eye openingly objective/vocal and just, and strips UN of its power.

 

[Enron]

Yes ofcourse, Violence should never be incouraged...but all of us (EAST, WEST, NORTH, SOUTH) understand that it is legitimate to use it, for defensive purposes.

And yes there is a problem there regarding revenge and I think one reason it hasn't stopped is that there is no Referee here. The US acts like the world's police but it isn't behaving so. All modern, wealthy support seem to go in favour of Isreali without proper judgement on the whole situation. As if the western world labelled Palestinians the bad guys before they tried to understand what has happened and what is happening.

Referee is what the United Nations should stand for, but we have politics in this world, and as much as anybody wants to deny, we know the US hold many-many countries by the BALLS because of their economic power. Which then hinders many countries from bieng eye openingly objective/vocal and just, and strips UN of its power.

Everyone is just worried about not stepping on the other guys feet. In the case of the US we only care about our pocketbooks and a fresh case of budwieser. It is very sad Ill agree. I dont think I could add anything else to youre argument.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I think the problem we have here is the notion of revenge in eastern and western cultures. What do you think?

Interesting point, especially since all the religions/cultures which promoted compassion and forgiveness originated in the east.
E, it is one thing to hear a sad story and go "wow that must've sucked" then get back to your game, your family, and your life. But it's a different ball game when things that anyone would take for granted are stripped away and you're subjected to constant humiliation.
You said something about arabs being perceived as zealots with explosive jackets. But out of the two, history disagrees that it is the israelis that travelled thousands of miles to expell, kill, and dehumanize another people in the name of a "divine" promise.
Is it reason enough for you as a last resort (yes it is a last resort) to go blow yourself up and kill "civilians" out of frustration, helplessness, and despair? I dont know I'd have to live in tulkarem refugee camp for some years and see how that affects me (makes up for a great anthropological project). Just know that calling people animals is the last think that would dissuade them from acting out their anger.
If Israel were serious about peace they wouldnt have:

1. created hamas. yes Israel provided money logistics and support for hamas ever since it started as a philanthropic org.
2. disregarded all UN resolution and branded the anti-semitic card whenever anyone would criticize its actions
3. stole technology from the US to ammass the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world.
4. and finally if they were really serious about making peace they wouldnt have built the biggest concrete cage known to man.

 

[- vOnAm -]

I do agree with you on the problems with speed of the development of particular governments. As a witness to 6 backward years I know the downfalls of democracy. But even if you have a terrible leader, a solid system of checks and balances can keep him somewhat in check and the country more or less stable. In democracy no one man has all the power and because of our election system no one man will keep it forever. A roll over of power is always certain but as you said it does take a while.
Another problem with the idea of melting and Authoritarian government into a democray is that once you have the Authoritarian leader, whats to say he or she will want to relinquish power? If one person has total command what is keeping them from having it always and forever? Im not even sure of this answer myself. Perhaps one of us can enlighten the other.

That is also what I meant by the flaws in my theory. But there are people who want the best for others, who are selfless (well not totally, coz no one can be like that completely), but have a strong integraty to be true to yourself and others and devote the power we have to keep fairness incheck. But again it cannot be guarenteed that a person such as the one I mentioned above gets the opportunity to lead an Authocratic government.

But that is why I took Malaysia for example, and Mahatir Muhammad, in the past he made many authoritarian decisions, and democracy wasn't completely there. But his decisions were for the good of the Malaysian people in general, and during these Authocratic times he began to slowly install democracy. And now Malaysia is a diverse and wonderful country rich with its Islamic roots but strong in cultural diversities and democratic leadership of the country.

Look at my country, Indonesia, we went from a bad dictator, Soeharto (who had his accomplishments too, aside from filthy corruption and deterioration of Indonesia's future assets), to a limping democracy. The people in my country couldn't tell a good, just and smart leader from a dumb, weak fatherly figured guy. Many aren't educated to understand, and others might just be bought off coz many in power(financially) here are corupt. And you know how much financial power can do to influence a democratic system especially in a country which has a very low general level of education.
Although I might add that Indonesia is much more diverse than Malaysia and geographically one of the hardest places to govern.

 

[Enron]

Interesting point, especially since all the religions/cultures which promoted compassion and forgiveness originated in the east.
E, it is one thing to hear a sad story and go "wow that must've sucked" then get back to your game, your family, and your life. But it's a different ball game when things that anyone would take for granted are stripped away and you're subjected to constant humiliation.
You said something about arabs being perceived as zealots with explosive jackets. But out of the two, history disagrees that it is the israelis that travelled thousands of miles to expell, kill, and dehumanize another people in the name of a "divine" promise.
Is it reason enough for you as a last resort (yes it is a last resort) to go blow yourself up and kill "civilians" out of frustration, helplessness, and despair? I dont know I'd have to live in tulkarem refugee camp for some years and see how that affects me (makes up for a great anthropological project). Just know that calling people animals is the last think that would dissuade them from acting out their anger.
If Israel were serious about peace they wouldnt have:

1. created hamas. yes Israel provided money logistics and support for hamas ever since it started as a philanthropic org.
2. disregarded all UN resolution and branded the anti-semitic card whenever anyone would criticize its actions
3. stole technology from the US to ammass the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world.
4. and finally if they were really serious about making peace they wouldnt have built the biggest concrete cage known to man.

My comments refer to the statements in bold.

While we all know this is untrue about Arabs, it is the fashion in which Arabs are portrayed by Western media. And while it is sad the most known sect of Islam is the small one that acts like the Christians of the Middle Ages, promising Paradise for those who destroy infedels. Is this right, no way. But it is whats happening. The Arab population of Isreal as I said before is an underdog. Inaccurate portrayals have cost them their image. For this reason they must do more to change the opinions of those who can help them.

It is clear to me that Isreal do not want peace. Especially after Sharon's reign, which in my opinion was as dispicable as my own president's. But I think there was a time when a peace could have been met, but a good man was assasinated for trying to make that peace.

 

[- vOnAm -]

Interesting point, especially since all the religions/cultures which promoted compassion and forgiveness originated in the east.
E, it is one thing to hear a sad story and go "wow that must've sucked" then get back to your game, your family, and your life. But it's a different ball game when things that anyone would take for granted are stripped away and you're subjected to constant humiliation.
You said something about arabs being perceived as zealots with explosive jackets. But out of the two, history disagrees that it is the israelis that travelled thousands of miles to expell, kill, and dehumanize another people in the name of a "divine" promise.
Is it reason enough for you as a last resort (yes it is a last resort) to go blow yourself up and kill "civilians" out of frustration, helplessness, and despair? I dont know I'd have to live in tulkarem refugee camp for some years and see how that affects me (makes up for a great anthropological project). Just know that calling people animals is the last think that would dissuade them from acting out their anger.
If Israel were serious about peace they wouldnt have:

1. created hamas. yes Israel provided money logistics and support for hamas ever since it started as a philanthropic org.
2. disregarded all UN resolution and branded the anti-semitic card whenever anyone would criticize its actions
3. stole technology from the US to ammass the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world.
4. and finally if they were really serious about making peace they wouldnt have built the biggest concrete cage known to man.

I think Enron is already starting to open up abit, that even Palestinians know that violence in reality will get them nowhere. Him and ReBeL are now sitting at the table instead of standing infront of one another

That is why we need referee's in every conflict, just to calm situations down. Surely you can't expect the victoms (it may be both sides or one of them) to act relaxed and cool headed and smart about the solution. But when Refs pretend to be refs but favor one side and close their eyes to the other side, then you get suicide bombers.

 

[Enron]

That is also what I meant by the flaws in my theory. But there are people who want the best for others, who are selfless (well not totally, coz no one can be like that completely), but have a strong integraty to be true to yourself and others and devote the power we have to keep fairness incheck. But again it cannot be guarenteed that a person such as the one I mentioned above gets the opportunity to lead an Authocratic government.

But that is why I took Malaysia for example, and Mahatir Muhammad, in the past he made many authoritarian decisions, and democracy wasn't completely there. But his decisions were for the good of the Malaysian people in general, and during these Authocratic times he began to slowly install democracy. And now Malaysia is a diverse and wonderful country rich with its Islamic roots but strong in cultural diversities and democratic leadership of the country.

Look at my country, Indonesia, we went from a bad dictator, Soeharto (who had his accomplishments too, aside from filthy corruption and deterioration of Indonesia's future assets), to a limping democracy. The people in my country couldn't tell a good, just and smart leader from a dumb, weak fatherly figured guy. Many aren't educated to understand, and others might just be bought off coz many in power(financially) here are corupt. And you know how much financial power can do to influence a democratic system especially in a country which has a very low general level of education.
Although I might add that Indonesia is much more diverse than Malaysia and geographically one of the hardest places to govern.

I am familiar with the struggles in Indonesia but I wasn't aware of Malaysia's story. I will definitely do some research.

 

[- vOnAm -]

I am familiar with the struggles in Indonesia but I wasn't aware of Malaysia's story. I will definitely do some research.

Well thats my take on what I know from Malaysia, I admire the country and the government for sometime now.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I am familiar with the struggles in Indonesia but I wasn't aware of Malaysia's story. I will definitely do some research.

Umm, they are basically one in the same, not as a country, but as a region .

 

[- vOnAm -]

Umm, they are basically one in the same, not as a country, but as a region .

They were the in the same situation 25-30 + years ago, then many events happened and they took different paths and now are in different courses which leads them to have different struggles. Not really the same in that sense.

But interms of the background of the people, the local language and region then yes they are pretty much the same.

 

[Muha]

Rebel you are an idiot assclown.

Listen dude, since u've started posting in this thread, i havent seen a single constructive post of urs (other than the one above)... so u better stick to the topic and stop insulting other ppl... This thread has been of great intrest to many, and many would like it to stay open for further debates... so if u wanna fuck up then u should consider fucking up somewhere else.....

Cheerzint:

 

[PhRoZeN]

Yep that is what happend to poor Armenia, the geography of Armenia should be the worst, they suffered wars for many centuries, the earthquake was laso a bad luck, we lost a lot there. I wish if they solve the conflicts with Azerbaijan and Turkey. Because we had enough of wars and sufferings.

Yet, we have some extreme nationalists that spend huge money, milions of dollars on the Genocide case, am sure they still do, instead they could help with that money to improve the country..

I want for Palestine that too, to live in peace next to Israel, two of the people suffered enough from each others, thousands of death. you think it will be solved this way? If both sides accept each others offically as countries, it will be better for the both sides. this is their destiny, to live together.

Yes your armenian case is understandble and commiserations for all those who lost their lives. With palestine and israel its totally a different matter nevertheless, Instead of the oppressed being in charge of the country in general and having forign nations attacking the country (within and without) like yours.. its is quite distinctivley the opposite we instead are having the state that is recognised as a country attacking those who are not recognised at all. There are many other differences and its a more delicate issue than the armenian. In 1991 your people voted for their independence and as it was already a recognised state on its own it managed to easily clear out what belongs to its country and what doesnt. The case however with this issue is that the palestinians are divided into two corners we have the west bank and the gaza strip. Then there is the wall segregation too which is against the human rights.. something which armenians never really faced. To be segregated and questioned over who you are or even denied to meet your family on the other side who u dont even know whether they live or not just comes to show the actual difference that lies between these two examples.

 

[PhRoZeN]

Its very interesting how a Palestinian group broke the cease fire that has been in effect since January.

As rebel has already replied to this and your most proberly recognise the flaw in your argument.. but just to further clarify if you did read the article it was rather an act of revenge in which the israeli were the first people who actually broke there own ceasefire when they attacked a rural area killing an 8 year old girl.. if you go further back to my posts on page 17 or something you should find an article where I have discussed this with a little more emphasis with the israeli member TAL.

BTW sorry for the late replies to Snoop and Enron, Im not much of a late night or early morning person

 

[flieeeekke]

Thanks for the illuminating comments

to be honest your doing a great job youself. im not defending burke, but your input in this discussion is incredible. the best part was telling enlishmen and irishmen they know bollocks about the northern ireland issue. im in awe..

 

[PhRoZeN]

I think many in this thread still don't understand clearly the real situation out there.

Thats the most reasoned statement that I have heard all week.. I feel that no matter how much emphasis is spent.. I really dont see anyone going all the way back to page 1 and working their way towards the end. They will prolly read the articles which suits them best aestheticly and proberly from the posters who are actually more recognised in this whole community forum.

 

[flieeeekke]

Rebel you are an idiot assclown.

burke, ffs, you've been warned already!

 

[PhRoZeN]

Yeah I did, the thousands of Palestinians in jail. An honorable reason, no doubt. But Im gonna have to go American Idol on this one and say his song selection was a little week. Palestinians in jail warrent blowing up a fast food restuarant? And in the middle of a cease fire in which even Hamas were chilling out. Fucking retarded if you ask me. That idiot should have blown up an Isreali courthouse, it would have been more symbolic. But hey, its all good right I mean some Jew kids died so Ill bet you got your jollies for the day.

I dont think any palestinian would be delighted with such news, they have tried to live at times when ceasefire did happen in prosperity not to strike yet noone spoke up about it.. as time went on the UN were the first international organisation that actually spoke about it.. as I have shown in my previous resolutions this has continued.. and even will till now.. However israel has ignored them time and time again. The U.S remains quiet on the issue but when the first suicide bombing happens and some civilians are killed the U.S are the first people to actually speak up about it.. its plain to see how biased the U.S actually is.. only when the U.S is put under pressure to speak up they will otherwise mouths are closed. Moving on when action still resumes as the israelis are looking for "terrorists" who put the last affliction on their community a few months ago or maybe even longer they just continue killing palestinian civilians so what choice do the palestinianis have?.. if you look at all the ceasefires that have happen and ill bring up the facts soon, you would recognise that its israel who have breached them and not the "terrorists". You would also find that there are some cases were israel has claimed that rockets were fired from lebanon out of all the places at there military yet they never show such pictures in teh press, the whole matter remains quiet.. now how rheterically biased is that? they only allow the press to enter places where they actually require them. As for targeting open places like shopping malls e.tc.. if the "terrorists" actually had a choice they would love to target the army or courts or whatever.. however such places have much more security than shopping malls.,. its unfortunate that civilians are dieing in israel too.. but TBH its reached a desperate situation.. desperate situations bring desperate measures.