A Pathetic democracy!!! (5 Viewers)

[ReBeL]

Dear Ian,

I'm replying here to your points for one reason...

I care for your opinion as well as the opinion of anybody in this World because my duty is to tell people something that I witnessed...

These points I'll tell you is from my personal experience and no third party told it to me...

I want this nice debate to reach to something constructive in the end, and I'll try to be collaborative as much as I can...

Looking at it from a picture of international law, Palestine started the killing.

Can you please give me the exact date of these killings started by Palestinians, according to your sources??

Besides, Hamas is still a terorrist group.

"Created in 1987 and connected to the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt, Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel, as well as of any secular Palestinian government that may be set up.[1] Its popularity is in part explained by the extensive network of welfare programs it has set up throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip, although it is best known throughout the world for carrying out suicide bombings[2][3][4][5][6] and other attacks against Israeli civilians, as well as military targets, to further its goal of creating a Palestinian Islamist state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the European Union, Israel, and the United States,[7] and is banned in Jordan.[8]"-wikipedia

Well, to tell me that Palestinians started the killings, then you gave me that source which said that Hamas was created in 1987, so do you suggest that this region was a peace oasis before Hamas??

And did you think ever of the reason that led to creating Hamas??

Fine, some people elected a terrorist organization. Just because they were elected, does not mean it’s a democracy. You can’t ignore the violent religious undertones in this.

Again, I must say it is a liberation organization by those who chose it, not a terrorist movement like its Israeli enemies claim...

And it is a democracy, you liked that or not, it is absolutely democracy...

By your logic, is electing G. Bush was in a democratic way or not?? Because if you heard, he's killing civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq...

He was elected democratically, so was Hamas...

Yeah, legislative council, I guess they’re hard at work creating peace with Israel? The legislative council is full of Hamas.

Do you think that the legislative council is not good just because they don't run to make peace with Israel??

Using your logic, if Israel doesn't want peace (This is the current case), there should not be any elections in the Palestinian lands and the people of Palestine should not care about their local problems!!!

Democracy is not necessarily majority rule. But, that does not negate the fact that their political parties are terrorist organizations.

Again, It's liberation, my dear...

Why must you assume the motives of Israelis? Are you Israeli?

I live the result of their motives...

If you don't know, their flag contains two lines which are (According to their own explanations) the Nile river in Egypt and the Furat river in Iraq...

Their motives is to expand their occupied lands to cover the region from Iraq to Egypt...

My duty is to resist their motives...

It makes more sense to me that walls were built for safety, not attack.

A very big area of my own village was stolen to make this stupid wall...

It's just a way to steal more lands, nothing more...

And it will not give the Israelis any safety, because the son of that family which lost its land to build this wall, won't forget the hunger caused by stealing his ancestors' only way to earn a living, and he'll find a way to make the revenge when he becomes older...

That’s incredibly slanted. The Palestinians are armed well enough to level a café or turn a bus into a fireball…

You still forget that these bombings are often a reaction for killing hundreds of civilians in Palestinian cities...

Just give the Palestinians another way to react...

I would like you not to fuck up history. Palestine was included in Jordan, the British mandate, after WWI. The British, divided the mandate into two sections, Palestine, and Trans-Jordan, which later became Jordan. Palestine was only important to the Muslims for the religious sites in Jerusalem, etc. Without the Zionists, most of the land would arid or swamp.

You're kidding me!!!

Without the alien zionists, around 4 million people, mostly farmers were living in that land...

I'm not telling you these facts from any book, but simply my family was there...

Because the Philistines weren’t Arab, they were Greek in origin.

Palestinians are a mix of many people who lived in this region during thousands of years...

Arab Canannites mixed with Greek Philistines to build a place that prospered for centuries before the first jewish guy thinks of coming to this part of this world...

Take your time reading, son. I said, “a large part”, not most. Look at the figures:

Palestinians Born in the West Bank, Gaza, or Israel: 4,913,000
Palestinians Born outside that area: 4,482,00

So what??

I add to you that there are 250000 Palestinian refugees live now in Chile ALONE...

So, if they are out of their land since 50 years, then they have no right to ask for going back??

That's a weird logic, I must say...

I did know that’s one of the lies that Palestinians and others use to justify terrorism.

Again, it's liberation, not terrorsim...

If you believe that the British Army and the Zionists forcibly took the land and property of the Palestinians (which isn’t the case), then why don’t you go bomb something in England?

Did you hear of something called "priorities"??

Palestinians were so hurt by English way of stealing their lands and giving it to aliens, but we should fight those who live between us now, then we will face those who brought them...

Alright man, it’s all a huge conspiracy…
.

It is

I keep hearing that Islam is really a very peaceful religion, but I guess I was wrong. And as I said before, it’s hard to hit Palestinian military targets, because their military is civilian and they are terrorists.
.

Do you hint that all Palestinian civilians are militants or what??

That’s a value judgment, it differs from person to person. Besides, if you focus all your attention on what happened in the past, without opening the door for new things in the future, how can peace ever be achieved. I think that peace is more important than the destruction of Israel or the restoration of the full Palestinian state.

I'm not discussing the past because I love history or something...
I'm discussing it because I'm treated in a bad way in some country in the Middle East because I made one sin: My grandfather escaped from his land in Palestine and brought us to this shitty place hoping to go back to his house one day in the future...

He died in 1999, but his dream of going back won't...

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[ReBeL]

Oh please... he said it twice under provocation... whats the big deal...

You are jus using it (as your friend is) as an excuse and to detract from the fact that even with his somewhat flawed argument he has outdone you all...

You both keep saying hes wrong and your arguments are stronger but fail to put it across..

Either stop whinging and out debate him or shut up... show us what you got... Cause at the moment you lot are looking rather weak..



No one here is speaking the actual truth... On this subject there is no "truth"... theres opinions from 2 sides and several angles... Its all opinions and you should all show a lil more respect for that...

And at least his opinion comes from a lil knowledge of the subject... unlike those that were commenting on the ira earlier in the thread who clearly had absolutely no clue what Northern Ireland is all about..

I don't think your friend needs a lawyer to help him to make his voice louder...

Ian is saying his opinion and we replied to him...

Nobody said he can't say whatever he wants to say...

 

[ReBeL]

Finally as promised here comes the "media" section. As it seems all those who are never gonna believe anything are always gonna believe CNN, Fox news e.t.c simply because they are more assecible and rightly so they are the richest media organisations owned of course by some of the richest people in the word.

Firstly I would like to point out that if you look back a few or more decades ago or maybe more, there were dozens of news organisations all owned by different people gradually all of these companies were bought out by the same men and now we see only 5 or 6 organisations which actually present the media to us..

dont believe me? see the following links.

http://www.freepress.net/content/ownership
http://www.nowfoundation.org/issues/communications/tv/mediacontrol.html

Even the independent organisation FAIR recognises this..

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=7&issue_area_id=6

So moving on.. who actually owns these institues? Afterall they can be all biased can they?

Well without going too far back heres some info..

That most of the owners of these organisations were actually former Senators or Representatives in the House such as William Cohen (Viacom). Board members served at the
FCC such as William Kennard (New York Times) and Dennis FitzSimmons
(Tribune Company) showing revolving door relationships with big media
andU.S. government officials. Now is it a mere conspiracy that they only what information to be passed down to what they believe will be politicaly right for their nation and not forgetting the zionists who run half of america. If your in denial that zionists dont run most part of america? then your insane.

GE - Jeffrey R. Immelt although not prooven fully to be a a jewish he is part of the jewish foundation Institute in Oregon. Also Immelt has made several donations to the Republican Party and various committees of the party. According to the same documents see..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._Immelt

Time Warner - Geral Levin A jew.. need a i say more read article below

Time Warner. The largest media conglomerate today is Time Warner (briefly called AOL-Time Warner; the AOL was dropped from the name when accounting practices at the AOL division were questioned by government investigators), which reached its current form when America Online bought Time Warner for $160 billion in 2000. The combined company had revenue of $39.5 billion in 2003. The merger brought together Steve Case, a Gentile, as chairman of AOL-Time Warner, and Gerald Levin, a Jew, as the CEO. Warner, founded by the Jewish Warner brothers in the early part of the last century, rapidly became part of the Jewish power base in Hollywood, a fact so well-known that it is openly admitted by Jewish authors, as is the fact that each new media acquisition becomes dominated by Jews in turn: Speaking of the initial merger of Time, Inc. with Warner, Jewish writer Michael Wolff said in New York magazine in 2001 "since Time Inc.'s merger with Warner ten years ago, one of the interesting transitions is that it has become a Jewish company." ("From AOL to W," New York magazine, January 29, 2001)

Disney. The second-largest media conglomerate today, with 2003 revenues of $27.1 billion, is the Walt Disney Company. Its leading personality and CEO, Michael Eisner, is a Jew. see ians favourite site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Eisner. His succesor ian pilgar is also a jewish he was formerly the head of ABC news channel.

Viacom. Number three on the list, with 2003 revenues of just over $26.5 billion, is Viacom, Inc., headed by Sumner Redstone (born Murray Rothstein), a Jew. Melvin A. Karmazin, another Jew, was number two at Viacom until June 2004, holding the positions of president and chief operating officer.

Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation owns Fox Television Network, Fox News, the FX Channel, 20th Century Fox Films, Fox 2000, and publisher Harper Collins. News Corp. is the fifth largest megamedia corporation in the nation, with 2003 revenues of approximately $19.2 billion. One of ruperts sayings from wikipedia is..
"The greatest thing to come out of this [war in Iraq] for the world economy...would be $20 a barrel for oil. That's bigger than any tax cut in any country." This obviously shows he is driven by greed.

Historian David Irving has published information from a claimed high-level media source who says that Murdoch's mother, Elisabeth Joy Greene, was Jewish. As for his dad it remains unknown. However his second inline Paul chernin is a jew.
Source: http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=4231

Although I proberly will hear from the usual suspects " Give me more, give me more this proove is insufficient".. the only thing I can say is that.. im trying to find a the secret profile of some of the richest people in the world.. its not as easy as said.

Anyway I hope my points above show some understanding of why the media is biased.. there are prolly many reasons more but thats all I have time for.

Great...

 

[ReBeL]

i wouldnt say im brainwashed by media. i dont care about israelis or palestinians. it is hypocrytical of western countries who promote democracy to cut aid for a democratically elected goverment, then i again i fully agree with ian that hamas shouldnt receive any aid because IT IS a terrorist organization in the first place. for all i care, palestinians and israelis can wipe out each other, i dont support neither of the sides and i think both of the parties are wrong.

but seeing people justifying terrorists?? i'll be damned..

They are resistants, man...

The problem is that you take the words used in the Western media as postulates...

Did you think ever of the reason of that SO-CALLED TERROR??

 

[ReBeL]

Perfectly stated.

I never said that Israel is a democracy, or that they are blameless, or that they don't kill people. But, there is a serious difference between a military action which kills civilians, and a suicide bomber blowing up a cafe. Whatever happened in the past is no justification to kill anyone, IMO. It all comes down to that fact that Israel would have no motivation or support for it's military actions without the terrorist campaign from Palestine.

1- There is absolutely a big difference between an organized military action by the big fifth Weapon-armed country in the world and small bombings happening as a reaction for the first party's crimes...

2- Again, the Palestinians didn't start their struggle to earn the independence for 17 years (1948-1965), but nobody said a word about their lands which were stolen to make a fake country ruled by blood-shedders...

3- You're imagining Israel as the victim party where you can go back to read the article posted by Rami in the first pages of this thread to know how they deserve your sympathy...

 

[Enron]

They are resistants, man...

The problem is that you take the words used in the Western media as postulates...

Did you think ever of the reason of that SO-CALLED TERROR??

Could it be an extension of a centuries old religous conflict?

 

[ReBeL]

Right, But I was not making any argument whatsoever, just showing you that your thoughts on Kosovo and Palestine were contradicting. I never stated my opinion on Kosovo.

My point is only that no matter which people claim a particular land is theirs, there will always be historical evidence that another people pre-dated them and also have legitimate claims to that very same land. So, how far back do we go to determine who is the rightful owner?

If you lose the land because of defeat in war, can your future generations later make claims for a return of the land?

What about treaties and armistaces entered into by corrupt governments? Can future generations come back hundreds of years later and demand return of lands?

Interesting points, indeed...

The treaties which were by some corrupt governments can't be obligating to anybody but to those who signed them...

These treaties were not implemented ever by the Israeli party while USA and EU are keeping asking Palesinian people to be obliged to commit it...

Current genereations don't agree on these treaties, and if these current generations were treated as humans in their refuges, they may forget...

But (Thanks God) the neighbour countries didn't make the life of the refugees easy one...

 

[ReBeL]

This thread makes me fucking sick. All the Arabs think the killing of innocent lives is OK. All the westerners think its not. This is going nowhere. I have one statement for all you pro violence fucks:

If you want your land so badly and you're sure that the killing of innocent lives is the way to get it. Then fucking man up. Strap on some C 4, grab a handfull of your Hamas brothers and make it golden. Its easy to sit at your keyboard and pretend half ass reasons are worth human life. In all honestly it was wrong of the Allies to split up the Ottoman Empire after WWI without taking into thought the ethnic differences of the people whos lives they were changing. But those people are dead and gone. But if its still worth it to you, then go join your boys and put the money where the mouth is. I may be some American pig who knows nothing about fighting for ones land but heres a quick question, how many military targets have Hamas and other organizations attacked in the last 5 years? Find the answer to that and you'll understand why the UN and the US won't have anything to do the new Palestinian leadership.

On another note to compare William Wallace to Hamas or any organization like it is absolutely ridiculous and is a disgrace to the legend of Wallace.

I lied, it wasn't one statement.

You're right about the first party... If I could do anything to may country, I'll do it wthout any hesitation, but unfortunately, I'm forbidden from even seeing my enemy...

About Wallace and Hamas, both of them are freedom fighters, and there is no reason to differentite between them...

 

[Enron]

1- There is absolutely a big difference between an organized military action by the big fifth Weapon-armed country in the world and small bombings happening as a reaction for the first party's crimes...

2- Again, the Palestinians didn't start their struggle to earn the independence for 17 years (1948-1965), but nobody said a word about their lands which were stolen to make a fake country ruled by blood-shedders...

3- You're imagining Israel as the victim party where you can go back to read the article posted by Rami in the first pages of this thread to know how they deserve your sympathy...

1- And killing innocent citizens is retribution? Why not attack military targets? Heres the scenario, Isreal rapes and pillages the Arab population in Isreal as you say. In retaliation the heroes of Hamas blow but a disco in Tel Aviv. Hamas claims ownership of the boom but hides amongst their own people. Where does Isreal go to counter? The only place it can, the innocent non Hamas Palestinians that those cowards hide behind. It is indeed a most violent game of chess, perhaps the deadliest game. As you said Palestine is a smaller, poorer "nation" with no standing army, so what military targets does Isreal have to attack? The US ran into this problem in Vietnam, but that is neither here nor there. I don't condone violence on either side because it only brings more death and destruction no matter which side is the culprit. Why can't Palestinians use non-violent protests such as civil disobediance? Why can't they get there leaders together as one group and challenge the authority of Isreal as a whole? If Isreal were to attack a non violent Palestinian nation, the world could not turn away. Other countries have done similar things to gain independence. I dont see why Palestine can't. Unless of course this conflict is not only about land but also about a conflict of religous difference that stretches back centuries.

2- Apparently all Jews are blood-shedders. Thats like saying all Arabs are terrorists.

3- Rami's article was completely untrue. Jews don't rule the world, stupid white men do. It is true the US has had mad love for Isreal and that isn't good at all. That isn't because of the Jewspiracy Rami's article rants about. Its because our leaders made some bad foriegn policy decision in the Cold War. Neither parties are victims and neither, in fact both are to blame. Still both sides deserve much sympathy as they find themselves in such a sad predicament.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Oh please... he said it twice under provocation... whats the big deal...

You are jus using it (as your friend is) as an excuse and to detract from the fact that even with his somewhat flawed argument he has outdone you all...

You both keep saying hes wrong and your arguments are stronger but fail to put it across..

Either stop whinging and out debate him or shut up... show us what you got... Cause at the moment you lot are looking rather weak..



No one here is speaking the actual truth... On this subject there is no "truth"... theres opinions from 2 sides and several angles... Its all opinions and you should all show a lil more respect for that...

And at least his opinion comes from a lil knowledge of the subject... unlike those that were commenting on the ira earlier in the thread who clearly had absolutely no clue what Northern Ireland is all about..

His argument was not only decorticated, but he was also the first to show frustration and resort to petty insults. It's funny how you're commenting on people diverting from the subject to talk about the other party's shortcomings while you;re perpetrating it with this same message of yours. you have not added one bit of info to the argument, but instead pointed yourself arbitrator and judge.

As far as northern Ireland is concerned, the same could be said of you and Ian regarding paestine, so please if you have something constructive or critical to add do so.

 

[ReBeL]

Thanks...

1- And killing innocent citizens is retribution? Why not attack military targets? As you said Palestine is a smaller, poorer "nation" with no standing army, so what military targets does Isreal have to attack? The US ran into this problem in Vietnam, but that is neither here nor there. I don't condone violence on either side because it only brings more death and destruction no matter which side is the culprit. Why can't Palestinians use non-violent protests such as civil disobediance? Why can't they get there leaders together as one group and challenge the authority of Isreal as a whole? If Isreal were to attack a non violent Palestinian nation, the world could not turn away. Other countries have done similar things to gain independence. I dont see why Palestine can't. Unless of course this conflict is not only about land but also about a conflict of religous difference that stretches back centuries.

Palestinians used non-violent protests in the first intifada in the period (1987-1993) where nothing was used but small stones, but what was the result??

2000 Palestinians were killed and one woman cried for them in norway!!!

So what??

This World is so lazy that can't move its ass to help you if you haven't the guts to defend yourself...

3- Rami's article was completely untrue. Jews don't rule the world, stupid white men do. It is true the US has had mad love for Isreal and that isn't good at all. That isn't because of the Jewspiracy Rami's article rants about. Its because our leaders made some bad foriegn policy decision in the Cold War. Neither parties are victims and neither, in fact both are to blame. Still both sides deserve much sympathy as they find themselves in such a sad predicament.

Well, after all the names and small details which were mentioned there, you deny it!!!

What can I say??

 

[Enron]

Thanks...




Palestinians used non-violent protests in the first intifada in the period (1987-1993) where nothing was used but small stones, but what was the result??

2000 Palestinians were killed and one woman cried for them in norway!!!

So what??

This World is so lazy that can't move its ass to help you if you haven't the guts to defend yourself...



I agree




Well, after all the names and small details which were mentioned there, you deny it!!!

What can I say??

First of all small rocks is not non-violence. I refer you to the stuggles of Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr as well as the writings of Henry David Thoreau.
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

If you believe that all Jews are bloodshedding evil people, you have no place arguing in this thread. What you are saying is like me saying all Arabs are commercial pilots with boxcutters in their pockets. Which is not true.

And of course I deny Rami's article, do you think I haven't seen others like it. The worldwide Jewspiracy has been around for years. Most educated people have heard the stories of Jewish control groups and their sway on the US and Europe. Though few have seen evidence of these claims.

 

[ReBeL]

First of all small rocks is not non-violence. I refer you to the stuggles of Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr as well as the writings of Henry David Thoreau.
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

Well, the non-violent acts can be used against some countries which have a general opinion to affect it and make internal change in the occupier country like what happened in India, but when you face a country which kills your creative people, then you have no another way but to fight...

The man in my avatar was not a fighter, but he was a novelist...

Israelis killed him in Beirut before 30 years because they felt his writings started to reach the Western people...

A famous caricature drawer was killed in London because he used his pen to highlight their crimes...

The only Palestinian director who reached to Hollywood was killed because Israelis felt he may make some dangerous movies about them that may change the general Western opinion...

Briefly, there is nothing to be used but the gun...

If you believe that all Jews are bloodshedding evil people, you have no place arguing in this thread. What you are saying is like me saying all Arabs are commercial pilots with boxcutters in their pockets. Which is not true.

Well, let me make myself clear here...

Israeli military and government are blood-shedders...

Israel doesn't represent all the jews in the World...

I may give you a surprising fact which is that there are some jewish members in the Palestinian legislative council... Do you know who they are??

They represent the Jewish people in Nablus city who were living side by side with Palestinians for centuries without any religious conflicts...

Those jews refuse the Israeli policy just like me...

And of course I deny Rami's article, do you think I haven't seen others like it. The worldwide Jewspiracy has been around for years. Most educated people have heard the stories of Jewish control groups and their sway on the US and Europe. Though few have seen evidence of these claims.

Well, the control groups in the Western countries, especailly USA are offering you the evidence of that article...

Just go to:

http://www.aipac.org

Then think of what was written in that article...It's a full series of control organizations...

 

[The Pado]

ReBel, you say the world is too lazy to care, but I don't think the world is lazy. I think that the peace loving people of this planet are waiting for all you Christians, Moslems and Jews to quit fucking up the world, put your god-damned bombs away and start to face up to the FACT that when this planet gets blown to shit, it's going to be some god-crazed religious fuck head who lit the fuse.

 

[ReBeL]

ReBel, you say the world is too lazy to care, but I don't think the world is lazy. I think that the peace loving people of this planet are waiting for all you Christians, Moslems and Jews to quit fucking up the world, put your god-damned bombs away and start to face up to the FACT that when this planet gets blown to shit, it's going to be some god-crazed religious fuck head who lit the fuse.

And can the peace loving people of this planet offer more than one annual protesting rally??

I like to see more, but I don't think they can do anything more...

 

[ReBeL]

For those who keep saying that palestinians are terrorists, just read this out of the mouth of an Israeli writer in an Israeli newspaper:


----------------------------------------------

Who is a terrorist?


The scenes from Gaza are heartbreaking. Heartbreaking? That's not for certain. The sight of the Aben family from Beit Lahiya mourning its 12-year-old daughter Hadil last week did not stir any particular shock in Israel. Nor did anyone take to the streets and protest over the sight of her wounded mother and little brother lying in shock on the floor of their shanty in Gaza.

On the day Hadil Aben was killed, Yedioth Aharonoth carried a story about Nelly, the dog from Kibbutz Zikim that died of heart failure from the booming noise of the Israeli artillery firing into Gaza.

Instead of expressions of sorrow at the death of children, the upper echelons of the defense establishment came out with a stream of strident statements. The defense minister said that the only thing to do was step up the pressure on the Palestinians. The deputy chief of staff spoke about a possible invasion of Gaza and the head of army operations added, "what we've seen so far are only the previews." The IDF announced it would further reduce the "safety range" that is designed to avoid shells hitting the civilian population.

It was a chilling, united chorus. Israel is dropping thousands of bombs on towns and villages, on the "the launching pads" of the Qassams - another dubious term created by the defense establishment and blindly adopted by the press - and only the Palestinians, whose Qassam rockets haven't killed anyone since the disengagement, are called "terrorists."

Nor was there any substantive debate after a possible slip of the tongue by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, in an interview to the BBC, in which she said that there was a difference between attacking civilians and attacking soldiers. Even though she did not resolutely stand by her own words in an interview with Channel 10, Livni dared to speak the truth: If harming civilians is a measure of terror, then Israel is a terror state. With 18 killed in Gaza alone in 12 days, three of them children, the absence of intent cannot suffice for us. Someone who uses artillery to shell population centers and says with horrific indifference that this is "just a preview," as if it were another reality show on TV, cannot claim that he does not intend to kill children.

Those responsible for such bombings around the world are rightfully considered war criminals. That's terror - just ask Livni. And when it is done in the name of a state, it is much worse than in those cases when the perpetrators are from rogue organizations.

Israel declares it is striving to apply pressure with its cannon on the Palestinian population, so that it will prevent the Qassam fire. That is a hollow argument. No Palestinian leader can promote a cease-fire while dozens of civilians are being hurt. No Palestinian, no matter how peaceable, can prevent with his body the launches from inside Palestinian Authority territory. Could Hadil Aben's parents have done something? What exactly was the crime of these poor people? And how, exactly, will killing their daughter lead to a halt in the Qassams?

The continuing imprisonment of besieged Gaza is precisely the opposite policy that should be applied to serve Israeli interests. The current policy only strengthens support for the Hamas, just like the terror attacks within Israel always strengthen the Israeli right. A nation under siege, its leadership boycotted, will have far more determination and resolve to fight to its last drop of blood. It is impossible to break the spirit of a desperate people. Only a nation that sees a light at the end of its desperation will change its ways.

What would happen if Israel were to turn to the world and call upon it to enlist in the cause of support for the residents of Gaza, to donate and invest money to help them out of their utter poverty? If an Israeli prime minister did such a thing and at the same time called for a meeting with his elected Palestinian counterpart, it would create far more effective and positive pressure than any cannon fire.

If the Palestinians only saw for the first time in their lives that Israel also had their well-being in mind, which is not necessarily bad for Israel, they would have a lot more to lose and they would expel the Qassam launchers themselves. Only the Palestinians can do that, and sowing the seeds of hope is the only way to do so. And if, in the current situation, the artillery fire were to end, and they were to stop the Qassams, would Israel ease the siege, enable freedom of movement from Gaza to the West Bank, allow Palestinians to work in Israel, agree to the construction of a seaport and airport in besieged Gaza? Israel's declarations prove that the answer to all these questions is an unequivocal no. Its current policy and the policies we have seen it adopt lead only to intensification of the violence on the part of the Palestinians.

No Qassam justifies the killing and terror that the shells sow in Gaza. Cannons are meant for war against an army. Using them against a helpless civilian population is supposed to be beyond the realm of the legitimate, without any ifs or buts about it. A state does not shell towns. Period. Just like in the war against crime that is also deadly and endangers state security, no end justifies all the means. Would it ever occur to the Israeli police to evacuate an entire neighborhood from which some murderers came? Would anyone decide to shell such a neighborhood, even if it would mean minimizing the crime coming out of it?

Those who really want to end the Qassam launches from Gaza, should turn Israeli policy upside down. To show restraint in the face of the Qassams, to lift the siege, to immediately meet with the elected Palestinian leadership and call on the world to stop withholding the funds from the Palestinian Authority. Only a free and secure and thriving Gaza will stop launching Qassams. Have we ever tried that?

By Gideon Levy

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/705995.html

 

[joe5]

Predate?...
1- 14th century BC : Egyptian power began to weaken, new invaders appeared: the Hebrews, a group of Semitic tribes from Mesopotamia, and the Philistines (after whom the country was later named), an Aegean people of Indo-European stock.

Philistines did not belong to Indo-European stock but they were Minoan Cretans who lived in Crete many years before Indo-European came to Europe from Asia. Crete these years controlled the mediteranan sea and had strong relations with Philistines. If you see at the Old Testament the peaple of Israel were abused the Cherethims (Cretans) and Filistines for this.

{25:16} Ezekiel
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch
out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the
Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.

 

[PhRoZeN]

This discussion is reaching a ridicolous stage..

has any of the pro israeilis even read any of my posts? seriously how do you expect me to continue when all I hear is stuff which I have already replied too.. seriously take some reading lessons or something.

BTW Enron.. this is a debate and not a challenge of who could strap bombs and blow each other.. I have right to free speech just the same as you.. so please respect others views.

PADO - You didnt seem to take into account the mini reply that I said about Kosovans.. as I mentioned earliar the real history goes way back to the 14th century in which there was a fair war done by both sides.. such geneocides that were done by slobodan and co obviously gave the kosovans no choice but to retreat to lands which may not belong to them. The internation community condemned such actions that were taken by sloban yet no action was taken...

joe5 - I have already commented on who owns the lands.. please read my earliar posts.

Finally I dont see why when the discussion is shifting the other way we are getting some "aggressive" response from certain individuals.. if you have sufficient knowledge regarding the matter .. then speak up if not then shut up.

Oh BTW.. I aint even arab for those who may think I am. There are jews out there who believe that the land was stolen themselves and also go against there own "brothers" the zionists the people who literally run the world.. or rather are the richest people of the world. See the link below.

http://www.nkusa.org

What do these jews say or believe in? well they certainly go against the zionists (there own fellow jews). They believe that they are contradicting their own holy book and doing thing which go against judaism. The neurtie Karta are orthodox jews the "true" jews of the land.. but money and greed has distorted the zionists that live abroad in their true objective of being peaceful men which jews were a few hundred years ago. So as I said before.. this aint about people supporting arabs or being biased for gods sake we are seeing jews themselves who know the real story and are out there going out marching for their palestinian friends.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

My point is only that no matter which people claim a particular land is theirs, there will always be historical evidence that another people pre-dated them and also have legitimate claims to that very same land. So, how far back do we go to determine who is the rightful owner?

We the Kosovar have the Evidence and We will have our country Independent very soon...

And we can go back in the history for how much you would like to, it will alwayse show u that the albanian people have been there all the time and 98% of Kosovos people are Kosovar/Albanian... 2 % are Serbien...

Anyway, There is no reason speaking about the Balkan problem as it is nothing compered to what is happening in Palestine...

 

[- vOnAm -]

This discussion is reaching a ridicolous stage..

has any of the pro israeilis even read any of my posts? seriously how do you expect me to continue when all I hear is stuff which I have already replied too.. seriously take some reading lessons or something.

Hey Phrozen, don't tire yourself out...plus rep for your effort in actually creating a debate in here with arguments and facts to back them up...

I see your pretty new to these forums, and the posts that I've read are thought out stuff from you..

Just wanna remind you that this is (in all reality) a Juventus forum :faq1: , you gatta bare the guys who aren't really here to debate and just sort of lash out their opinions and feelings towards the subject. No matter how much evidence you give, they won't think about it or consider it or even read it for that matter.

Not all of us are trying to find the truth, and trying to understand the full situtation, there are those who are happy watching the events from their balcony or point of view without having to wonder how it might look like from a different angle and why.

I mean the counter arguments I've read here are not thought out (in the sense that they aren't countering(replying to) anything other than just expressing their opinion, and those that are replies to an argument only reply to certain aspects of the argument instead of the point of the argument itself)...

In fact the guy who claims that Rebel, Hambon and Azzurri7 have shallow arguments IMO is infact defending the poster who has shown the least facts to back-up his arguments.

Very interesting facts that all of you have mentioned here, I have been reading up on this subject as well, from pro-palestine, to pro-isreali, to Jews who are not pro-isreali...yet some facts I have read here have givin more light on the subject...


I would just like to add that not many people here in my country know that many American people are against Isreal and what they are doing, as some of the people have said in this forum. Too bad most muslims here in my country already have anti-American sentiments in regards to their position in the Pal-Isr conflict..and very little know that there are American people who are against their countries political position in this matter

And its pretty sad that bieng in the most populated muslim country in the world, we are not able to do anything about it (or not doing enough)...because we are too dirty, filthy and screwed internally ourselves that we can't give a helping hand.....atleast interms of feeding the needy, which in all sense is a humane thing to do regardless of race or religion...

How ironic if the facts presented here are true that the US give $3 Billion in foreign aid to Isreal, $2 Billion of which are going to Military supplies, yet they are stopping and urging other countries to stop all aid to feed people on the verge of starvation.

int: