Wikileaks (12 Viewers)

Lapa

FLY, EAGLES FLY
Sep 29, 2008
19,954
I couldn't care less about Wikileaks...everybody already knew that something like that was going on! Just get over it...
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
Let's put it this way. Israel and Palestine might be an impossibility for a future peace agreement by many accounts. But clearly things were mighty close when Arafat dropped the ball.

None of that would ever be possible in a fully transparent system.
You know there was no ball really. Don't you?

They're diplomatic cables not CIA documents. What do you think "diplomatic cable" means?
I mean that even those don't show anything material that we didn't know.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
until now, I see nothing that hurts American politics. Some leaks are lies just to try to make some internal problems in some countries like in Turkey for example.

What USA is leaking there is just claiming that the PM has secret bank accounts in Switzerland just to decrease his party's chance of winning the coming elections just because his acts don't agree with the American politics.

I'm starting to doubt that these documents are really leaked without the approval of the American politicians.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,457
You're argument is that a "fully transparent" system cannot work. Which as far as I can tell is a straw man, because I can't see that anyone has claimed everything should be fully transparent. Can you point me to a system which is dangerously close to being fully transparent?

Government secrecy is an incredibly convenient method to hide the unethical and the illegal, and governments by their very nature will always strive to keep you in the dark as much as possible. "Why do I have to be groped at the airport?" "Can't tell you." "Why not?" "National security." See how that works? When everything is secret, you don't have the right to protest anything.

Some amount of secrecy is necessary, just as it is necessary among moderators on the forum. But if moderators never had to justify anything and always said "that's classified", would that make a good forum?
My point wasn't that a fully transparent system cannot work. It's that Wikileaks makes no distinction between what should and should not be fully transparent, which makes them naive and irresponsible.

If they are taking a stand that all things should be fully transparent, they are burying their head in the sand and acting like a four-year-old to the realities of how human politik works. If they are not taking such a stand, then by setting no rules or guidelines about what is or what is not objectionable to publicize proves them incapable of using information constructively. It proves Wikileaks to be clueless and blind to the values of information management.

Either way, it reflects failure on their behalf.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
My point wasn't that a fully transparent system cannot work. It's that Wikileaks makes no distinction between what should and should not be fully transparent, which makes them naive and irresponsible.

If they are taking a stand that all things should be fully transparent, they are burying their head in the sand and acting like a four-year-old to the realities of how human politik works. If they are not taking such a stand, then by setting no rules or guidelines about what is or what is not objectionable to publicize proves them incapable of using information constructively. It proves Wikileaks to be clueless and blind to the values of information management.

Either way, it reflects failure on their behalf.
Actually, they do take a stand. They don't just hit Publish on anything they receive. Plus they read it and decide to redact some parts. Does that solve your problem?
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,457
Actually, they do take a stand. They don't just hit Publish on anything they receive. Plus they read it and decide to redact some parts. Does that solve your problem?
What would is a stated policy they use to decide what to publish and what not to.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,457
And until then what they do, in your opinion, is fail?
Yes. Because it shows that their standards are, given a lack of evidence to the contrary, arbitrary and just as hypocritically opaque as the governments they are trying to expose.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
Arguably, yes. What's the point of beating your chest about transparency while you're not even showing a willingness to practice it yourself?
Exactly. There is no point in having all this time between releasing each bulk of documents except if they want to use the yet-to-be-revealed ones in a blackmail.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
Arguably, yes. What's the point of beating your chest about transparency while you're not even showing a willingness to practice it yourself?
They are a tiny counter force to the secrecy of a massive bureaucracy that you are funding with your taxes yet you have no idea what it does. You would rather remove this opposition?
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,457
They are a tiny counter force to the secrecy of a massive bureaucracy that you are funding with your taxes yet you have no idea what it does. You would rather remove this opposition?
Absolutely. Because they're making no stand and taking no responsibility for what should be considered responsible use of secretive information and what shouldn't.

It's this kind of complete oversight that adds to the questions I have about how much is this a mission for a cause and how much this is about building personal notoriety. Anybody truly committed to the cause of transparency would make an example of themselves, first and foremost. It's the ones who don't that have me worried re: motivations. Otherwise, they're no better than religious leaders who don't practice what they preach.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
Absolutely. Because they're making no stand and taking no responsibility for what should be considered responsible use of secretive information and what shouldn't.

It's this kind of complete oversight that adds to the questions I have about how much is this a mission for a cause and how much this is about building personal notoriety. Anybody truly committed to the cause of transparency would make an example of themselves, first and foremost. It's the ones who don't that have me worried re: motivations.
Personal notoriety to what end exactly? Getting thrown in jail somewhere? Getting wiped out in some so called accident? What are they hoping to gain?
 

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