Given that zebras represent just a 10% portion of lions' diet, and lions eat only once in two weeks, we may conclude that one zebra will be eaten by lions every 20 weeks, or about twice a season...
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why can't we win Cl? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter denco
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What is underlying here is the desire of many people to go back to the Playmaker style team we left, as you said, when Zizou left us.
Very understandable desire, but unfortunately not comparted by Favio Capello.
He want Juve to play primarly 4-4-2, with two contention midfielders. He has stick furiously to it(all last year and this pre-season) in the important games, leaving the trident just for the secondary games.
And Obviously, he is not interested to bring a creative playmaker for the center. Thats the reason why he brings Vieira, instead of Pizarro...
Then , do we stick to Capello with is ugly football or we kick him out ??
Very understandable desire, but unfortunately not comparted by Favio Capello.
He want Juve to play primarly 4-4-2, with two contention midfielders. He has stick furiously to it(all last year and this pre-season) in the important games, leaving the trident just for the secondary games.
And Obviously, he is not interested to bring a creative playmaker for the center. Thats the reason why he brings Vieira, instead of Pizarro...
Then , do we stick to Capello with is ugly football or we kick him out ??
Well as we have seen with Liverpool last season we do not actually need a natural playmaker running things behind the strikers, just a player or two with fantastic vision who can create a lot from his central position in midfield. Players such as Gerrard, Xabi Alonso, Xabi, and David Pizarro can all provide their clubs exceptional passing range, so it's not so much letting a playmaker have free roam to create, only having a player somewhere on the pitch to conduct our attack. Capello has won the competition before with a system very much like the one he uses at Juve, so anything is possible. I'm just saying last year we lacked too much creativity to actually make a push for the Final. Perhaps this year will be a different story with Vieira and Mutu in the squad.
Other numbers seem to suggest otherwise. The highest scores recorded in a CL final in recent times is the 4-0 Milan delivered to Steaua Bucarest (after demolishing Real 5-0 in the semi when a 0-0 would have sufficed) and the 4-0 against Barca in 94. The latter was a bit in contradiction with the rest of our CL campaign that year, which had seen us adopt a more cautious attitude (mainly because we lacked the talent to play differently), but only the season before we had reached that same final by properly finishing off all our opponents (beating them in every single game, no less, and often if not always outplaying them).
This year's CL final was turning into just another demonstration if it hadn't been for those infamous 6 minutes. Milan were still trying to score the fourth and nail it before Liverpool's come-back, and after the shock of seeing three goals fall from the sky we still made more efforts than the latter to win the game.
Lippi's first Juve itself was a very determined-till-the-end team, maybe even more so in its 2nd and 3rd CL campaigns (the ones you lost in the final) than in her first winning year. I regard the Ajax-Juve semi of 98 as the best display of the ability to suffocate the other team for the whole 90 mins since Sacchi's Milan. Your 2003 semi against Real was another such show of force that comes to mind.
Inter, for what it's worth, had the CL's best goal rate last year.
Finals are always games of their own, but if we re-examine the ones Italian clubs have lost in the past 25 years, we can't really chastize them for giving up:
- Juve in 83 against Hamburg : Juve dominating with their stellar team but Magath taking his chance and punishing you (in fact, you can be accused of just the opposite in that game, i.e. thinking you had already won before playing)
- Roma-Liverpool in 84 : pretty balanced game with both teams more preoccupied with not losing than anything else.
- Juve-Liverpool in 85 : tight game that could go both ways and Juve winning on a dubious peno.
- Barca-Samp in 92 : Samp playing superbly, giving everything they have, creating the best chances (Vialli and Mancio hitting posts), Barca being dangerous too but only winning on a Koeman scud in the dying minutes of ET).
- Milan-Marseille in 93 : very balanced game again decided on an episode and the Southern French confirming that they are our nemesis.
- Milan-Ajax in 95 : Ajax are favourites but Milan play better, not letting the young Dutch prodigies take the initiative, though Kluivert seals it in the final minutes on a counter.
- Juve-Dortmund in 97 : see Juve-Hamburg, i.e. Juve too sure of themelves and being quite unlucky too.
- Juve-Real : again a very balanced game with both teams taking their chances and Real winning on a detail.
So, whereas it is true that, once they get to the final, English teams tend to win it more often than not, I don't think any of our losses can be attributed to too cautious an attitiude on our behalf, whereas most of our wins (or at least Milan's) were lessons of determination, sometimes (Milan-Barca) stemming precisely from our will to humiliate our cocky opponent.
This can be pretty much extended to most of the two legs games. We sometimes defend when there is a lead to preserve but generally also because we don't have many alternatives, because we don't have the players it takes in that particular instance. One thing is wiping the floor with Ajax in Amsterdam with the likes of Zidane, the pre-98 DP and Vieri, another is managing to score against Liverpool with what you had on the field this year.
An exception must be made though for the group stage games, where my impression is that we sometimes do display a dangerous serie A-esque attitude of scoring one and then sitting back, precisely because there is less at stake as a draw could always be remedied in the next game.
So to conclude, I'll state the obvious for the umpteenth time : if you have the players to produce offensive football, you can and will do it, otherwise you need to adapt. Juve could certainly use a creative mid that makes the link between attack and midfield, but on the whole you certainly have what it takes to win the CL (especially if Cassano were to join you).
This year's CL final was turning into just another demonstration if it hadn't been for those infamous 6 minutes. Milan were still trying to score the fourth and nail it before Liverpool's come-back, and after the shock of seeing three goals fall from the sky we still made more efforts than the latter to win the game.
Lippi's first Juve itself was a very determined-till-the-end team, maybe even more so in its 2nd and 3rd CL campaigns (the ones you lost in the final) than in her first winning year. I regard the Ajax-Juve semi of 98 as the best display of the ability to suffocate the other team for the whole 90 mins since Sacchi's Milan. Your 2003 semi against Real was another such show of force that comes to mind.
Inter, for what it's worth, had the CL's best goal rate last year.
Finals are always games of their own, but if we re-examine the ones Italian clubs have lost in the past 25 years, we can't really chastize them for giving up:
- Juve in 83 against Hamburg : Juve dominating with their stellar team but Magath taking his chance and punishing you (in fact, you can be accused of just the opposite in that game, i.e. thinking you had already won before playing)
- Roma-Liverpool in 84 : pretty balanced game with both teams more preoccupied with not losing than anything else.
- Juve-Liverpool in 85 : tight game that could go both ways and Juve winning on a dubious peno.
- Barca-Samp in 92 : Samp playing superbly, giving everything they have, creating the best chances (Vialli and Mancio hitting posts), Barca being dangerous too but only winning on a Koeman scud in the dying minutes of ET).
- Milan-Marseille in 93 : very balanced game again decided on an episode and the Southern French confirming that they are our nemesis.
- Milan-Ajax in 95 : Ajax are favourites but Milan play better, not letting the young Dutch prodigies take the initiative, though Kluivert seals it in the final minutes on a counter.
- Juve-Dortmund in 97 : see Juve-Hamburg, i.e. Juve too sure of themelves and being quite unlucky too.
- Juve-Real : again a very balanced game with both teams taking their chances and Real winning on a detail.
So, whereas it is true that, once they get to the final, English teams tend to win it more often than not, I don't think any of our losses can be attributed to too cautious an attitiude on our behalf, whereas most of our wins (or at least Milan's) were lessons of determination, sometimes (Milan-Barca) stemming precisely from our will to humiliate our cocky opponent.
This can be pretty much extended to most of the two legs games. We sometimes defend when there is a lead to preserve but generally also because we don't have many alternatives, because we don't have the players it takes in that particular instance. One thing is wiping the floor with Ajax in Amsterdam with the likes of Zidane, the pre-98 DP and Vieri, another is managing to score against Liverpool with what you had on the field this year.
An exception must be made though for the group stage games, where my impression is that we sometimes do display a dangerous serie A-esque attitude of scoring one and then sitting back, precisely because there is less at stake as a draw could always be remedied in the next game.
So to conclude, I'll state the obvious for the umpteenth time : if you have the players to produce offensive football, you can and will do it, otherwise you need to adapt. Juve could certainly use a creative mid that makes the link between attack and midfield, but on the whole you certainly have what it takes to win the CL (especially if Cassano were to join you).
The "magic" player doesnt have to be a creative central attacking midfielder ala Zidane.
Nedved was our "magic" player a few years back. The side that dominated the other does so in midfield. If the midfield has a leader, it has direction, it has drive, it has power.
In that sense, Pat may have been the best purchase this season. If he can boss around midfield, half the job's done. Liverpool had Xabi Alonso and Gerrard. Do we have a "magic" player like that? I hope it is Vieira, but sorry-I dont think so. He will not compensate for mediocre creative players.
If indeed we decide to play Mutu in the central AM position like Zidane, he will have to work his balls off. Like our Nedved was a few seasons back.
We should have won back then.
Nedved was our "magic" player a few years back. The side that dominated the other does so in midfield. If the midfield has a leader, it has direction, it has drive, it has power.
In that sense, Pat may have been the best purchase this season. If he can boss around midfield, half the job's done. Liverpool had Xabi Alonso and Gerrard. Do we have a "magic" player like that? I hope it is Vieira, but sorry-I dont think so. He will not compensate for mediocre creative players.
If indeed we decide to play Mutu in the central AM position like Zidane, he will have to work his balls off. Like our Nedved was a few seasons back.
We should have won back then.
This is the biggest rubbish I have ever Heard!!! How can you even compare Barcelona and Juventus conserning their play in the CL???
Am I the only one that remember Juve knocking Barca out of CL with only 10 players???
Am I the only one who remember Juve knocking Real Madrid out of CL twice??
am I The only one who remember Juve unbeaten in the group phase in this years CL campaign?? (just a draw against Tel Aviv) and we played Bayern and Ajax....
Am I the only one who remember Juve beating Milan at San Siro??
I didn't see Xavi, Rhonaldinho, or Deco get to the final.
Neither did Zidane, Ronaldo or Beckham look quite happy after playing Juve...
Did Kaka, Pirlo or Cafu get any medals this year?? I don't think they did....
And if we are to discuss the Liverpool Games, it was not the midfield that collapsed.... matter of fact it was the strikers that didn't move, and didn't take deep runs that they were supposed to.. because as far as I remember Juve had over 65% of the ball in midfield...
That, for me, is a midfield who win the game...
Am I the only one that remember Juve knocking Barca out of CL with only 10 players???
Am I the only one who remember Juve knocking Real Madrid out of CL twice??
am I The only one who remember Juve unbeaten in the group phase in this years CL campaign?? (just a draw against Tel Aviv) and we played Bayern and Ajax....
Am I the only one who remember Juve beating Milan at San Siro??
I didn't see Xavi, Rhonaldinho, or Deco get to the final.
Neither did Zidane, Ronaldo or Beckham look quite happy after playing Juve...
Did Kaka, Pirlo or Cafu get any medals this year?? I don't think they did....
And if we are to discuss the Liverpool Games, it was not the midfield that collapsed.... matter of fact it was the strikers that didn't move, and didn't take deep runs that they were supposed to.. because as far as I remember Juve had over 65% of the ball in midfield...
That, for me, is a midfield who win the game...
See, IMO the Champions League has evolved (backwards) to a stage where it has become a one game at a time competition. The team you are playing on the day and their current form should determine how you play, not the other way round (as in plan for a season ahead).
That is my opinion.
We can't sit down at this time and say we won't win it, neither can we sit down and say we will win. It is just to hope for the best.
That is my opinion.
We can't sit down at this time and say we won't win it, neither can we sit down and say we will win. It is just to hope for the best.
3 things.
1, The games away.
Juve has a tendensy to play utterly defensive away.
The teams that has succseed have been playing smart and not defensively away.
2. The midfield.
The most important thing as a team is to be able to own the midfield.
With that i mean that the opponant has to adjust to your speed and tempo. Look at M-united 5 years ago and milan at ther best.
3. Work capacity.
Work as a team. Help each other and respect the opponant.
If you put out a lot of divas that expect someone else to do the work you want win the hard games.
Run for 95 minutes!
1, The games away.
Juve has a tendensy to play utterly defensive away.
The teams that has succseed have been playing smart and not defensively away.
2. The midfield.
The most important thing as a team is to be able to own the midfield.
With that i mean that the opponant has to adjust to your speed and tempo. Look at M-united 5 years ago and milan at ther best.
3. Work capacity.
Work as a team. Help each other and respect the opponant.
If you put out a lot of divas that expect someone else to do the work you want win the hard games.
Run for 95 minutes!
Erm, I remember the strikers moving and trying to get free from marks, however most of the time the midfielders could not execute passes in such tight areas in front of Liverpool's 18. The passes just would not come off correctly and put our strikers in difficult situations in traffic. Once they recieved the ball I clearly remember they had no support from midfield, nobody charging up the pitch to get themselves available for a pass. Del Piero would hold the ball, but he rarely had somebody else to pass to. Same thing with Zlatan. The midfielders for some reason did not get that far up the pitch, and when that happens we are screwed attacking a strong defensive unit.
Then after crap play such as that for 60 minutes we started to resort to long balls cuz we could not do anything else and started to panic. We also resorted to long balls too frequently in midfield because we lacked a creative player who could hit passes all over the pitch with great consistentcy. We lacked a player in midfield who could quickly form ideas while he sees the pitch and execute those ideas on the run. That was our main problem last season, not having many ideas with the ball at our feet. That is what happens when you do not have much creativity in the side, and our forwards lacked service because of the aforementioned problem.
Then after crap play such as that for 60 minutes we started to resort to long balls cuz we could not do anything else and started to panic. We also resorted to long balls too frequently in midfield because we lacked a creative player who could hit passes all over the pitch with great consistentcy. We lacked a player in midfield who could quickly form ideas while he sees the pitch and execute those ideas on the run. That was our main problem last season, not having many ideas with the ball at our feet. That is what happens when you do not have much creativity in the side, and our forwards lacked service because of the aforementioned problem.
so You are saying that Nedved, Emerson and Camoranesi can't hit passes over th pitch with great consistancy???
On a great day Nedved takes the ball in the middle of the pitch, dribbles for 5 meters and hits a canon leaving us one goal ahed...
But not everyday is a great day...
How can people claim that we can't win the CL. Or need a creative player in the middle to do so after just ONE GAME??
Nobody complained about our defensive duo in the middle when Playing Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Milan.
It is so easy to pick out the weak link when odds are against you...
I assure you that Vieira-Emerson would win any battle in the midfild against Emerson-Aimar, Emerson-Pizzaro or Emerson-Rosicky. we would never have kept our 1-0 streak throughout the group phase if it wasnt for our strong defensive central chain. neither would we have won the Scudetto...
The game against Liverpool was a Bad Day. everybody have had a bad day, Even Juve!
And to give my opinion.. I dont think Juve played a bad game, Liverpool played fantastic football!
If this season goes well people will forgett about a "creative midfielder"... But if this season fails, people will blaim Moggi for Vieira....
It's so easy to be negative when you are not winning....
On a great day Nedved takes the ball in the middle of the pitch, dribbles for 5 meters and hits a canon leaving us one goal ahed...
But not everyday is a great day...
How can people claim that we can't win the CL. Or need a creative player in the middle to do so after just ONE GAME??
Nobody complained about our defensive duo in the middle when Playing Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Milan.
It is so easy to pick out the weak link when odds are against you...
I assure you that Vieira-Emerson would win any battle in the midfild against Emerson-Aimar, Emerson-Pizzaro or Emerson-Rosicky. we would never have kept our 1-0 streak throughout the group phase if it wasnt for our strong defensive central chain. neither would we have won the Scudetto...
The game against Liverpool was a Bad Day. everybody have had a bad day, Even Juve!
And to give my opinion.. I dont think Juve played a bad game, Liverpool played fantastic football!
If this season goes well people will forgett about a "creative midfielder"... But if this season fails, people will blaim Moggi for Vieira....
It's so easy to be negative when you are not winning....
Anybody that has watched every single match of last season can tell you we lack creativity, and when there is a tight match with two great defensive teams that extra creativity will come in handy. Creativity also gives us the ability to adapt to specific situations when the ball is at our feet; changing the pace of our play, switching the direction of the attack, making decisions that the defense would not normally expect. I think our main problem is we cannot elevate our play to higher or different levels when the odds are stacked against us, and we can only keep doing the same sort of attacks over and over again. As I stated before, this is too repetitive and we resort to long balls up top when we become flustered. If we had that extra creativity, just one player maybe, we could switch things up more often and trouble the opposition defense much more.
We are totally one dimensional in our attacks, and that is the reason why we sometimes struggle against the best defenses in the world. We have decent drive attacking the opposition, however the best offenses in this would consist of drive and creaitivity. The latter is what troubles defenses because it catches them off guard. Like it or not, that is the truth.
We are totally one dimensional in our attacks, and that is the reason why we sometimes struggle against the best defenses in the world. We have decent drive attacking the opposition, however the best offenses in this would consist of drive and creaitivity. The latter is what troubles defenses because it catches them off guard. Like it or not, that is the truth.
