Which team do you like to be our next opponent in CL? (4 Viewers)

JuveCampione · Mar 24, 2003

Agree, that was genius! but hey, we not comparing Trezeguet to Zidane. we all know how good zidane is (and he is a mid).
What we talked about is Trezeguet being a very good striker.
Tom, Trezeguet doesn't have the technique Zidane has.. and he doesn't score spectacular goal.
But Trez pays for it with other things, like what Primo already explained to you. well, it's also a form of technique!
what you don't like in Trezeguet is his style and contribution. about the style, it's a mattar of opinions. there are more players in the world like Trez, and that style is acceptable in football.
about the contribution, he scored loads of goals!

Primo · Mar 24, 2003

loads of them last season actually...

now we're talking sense. good point Oded. well thought of.

Tom · Mar 24, 2003

I think thats enough

Oded, I don't really want to compare him to zidane, we were just comparing the goals and there is no way that trez is a footballing 'genious' in the same way that zizou is. Obviously its an unfair comparison anyway so lets end it here.

Yes its a matter of opinion and you know that I respect your opinion on this matter. It seems we aren't going to agree and if people are going to react like primo did its not really worth arguing about.

Respaul · Mar 24, 2003

And thats (and especially the one before) a sensible response is it??

Hydde · Mar 24, 2003

zidane in the eurocup 2000 did a very good work, especially against portugal, he was fantastic.

well about treze, he is good, no doubt about that, but his playing style is complicated, cuz he do not give any contribution to the team, in terms of recovering or marking. But i think we must talk about this matter after some games with delpiero and treze both in good conditions.
about zizou vs treze, they have different roles and style. its very hard to make a comparisson of those two

Glen · Mar 24, 2003

Unbe****inglievable....

Tom · Mar 24, 2003

in what way/which bit?

Glen · Mar 24, 2003

Free for all Tom. All angles covered dealing with Trez vs. Zizou. Trez vs. Trez, Trez vs. Juventus, Juventini vs. Trez.

The wordings of said discussions, their content, just about anything. Unbe****inglievable.

Ian · Mar 24, 2003

Indeed Glen, might you say that we are "flogging a dead horse?"

JuveCampione · Mar 24, 2003

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++

:howler:

I think thats enough

Oded, I don't really want to compare him to zidane, we were just comparing the goals and there is no way that trez is a footballing 'genious' in the same way that zizou is. Obviously its an unfair comparison anyway so lets end it here.

Yes its a matter of opinion and you know that I respect your opinion on this matter. It seems we aren't going to agree and if people are going to react like primo did its not really worth arguing about.

yes you right, so let's stop arguing about it...
I think my way and you think your way... it's OK.

Tom · Mar 24, 2003

you sound pissed off. From my viewpoint the criticism of Trez is fair in this thread, though obviously comapring him to zizou is ridiculous. Do you feel the criticism is unfounded?

Ok oded, glad we got that sorted

Glen · Mar 24, 2003

No Ian. This isn't a dead horse. I just simply, for the life of me, cannot understand the strong critique of Trez. I'm not claiming that I'm right, and that criticism of Trez can't be meritted, but...

We haven't had as prolific a goalscorer since Michel Platini looking at goals to games. It's true that his charactheristics necessitate that we play in certain ways, and people can fault him for his mobility or lack hereof, but we sold Pippo because Trez was considered an upgrade, and he has scored with more regularity than Pippo ever did. Hence he was that. An upgrade. Pippo is on the other hand propably the most mobile forward I've ever seen in my life. Hardly anyone runs as many useless miles as he does (that's a positive thing btw. no disrespecting Pippo), but it doesn't change the fact that the results are better with Trez than Pippo looking at production.

Then the same old horse is whipped as to 'the kind of goals he scores'.... For heavens sake. Diego Tristan scores tap ins, headers in the area etc. Vieri scores vitually nothing else. Pippo did the same with us and is doing it now too. Everyone used to complain about him being the tap in king as well as diving king. Van Nistelrooy does it, Owen does it. EVERYONE who scores goals in numbers get's most their goals "cheaply". Del Piero too these days. Most goals are in fact relatively simple finishes, and especially so from the real strikers. Trezeguet has scored some absolutely brilliant goals for us, but in the end most goals will always come to look easy as he's getting his chances inside the penalty area. What's the virtue of such an argument? We've seen how Trezeguet can wickedly finish off chances on the volley, with his head, left or right foot, standing, runnning... doesn't matter. What he cannot do is run at defenders, make fakes and beat an entire defence, but we have others to do that. In recent years- we have never had as productive a forward duo as DP /Trez. Not even DP/Pippo in the glorious 1997/1998 beats Trez/DP last year. This year the two have hardly played together (and we've suffered for it), but the duo still has 19 goals from a combined 31 appearances or something.

Trezeguet has 45 goals from something like 72 serieA games with us (app.15 as a sub) and 11 CL goals from 21 matches I think.
Last season when he was injury free, having gotten used to calcio, he had 32 goals in 44 matches, and now, after having spent ½ the season away- he is getting diatribes his way after only scoring 9 goals in 18 serieA and CL matches.... what's the problem? Are we to sell everyone who has proved to be very valuable and effective assets when they don't litterally sparkle for a 1½ months... coming back from injury?
Yes- if it means being certain of getting Trez caliber finishing, Pippo movement and Cissé pace instead... combined in one player who's an instant fit to calcio and Juventus... but.. pray tell me... who is that player? And how can we be certain that this player will be this effective at Juventus?

Should Del Piero have been sold in 2000?

Tom · Mar 24, 2003

As far as the Trez Vs Pippo debate goes, I am all for trez. Pippo did do a lot of runningas you said, but of course a lot of it got him nowhere, for example the many many offsedes he used to get, we all remember.

Trez is certainly, in my opinion, an upgrade of Pippo, but whether this is because I don't rate pippo particularly highly or because trez is that good I am not entirely sure, probably a mix of both. Results are better with trez, whether this is actually down to him is another matter. Lippi has come back to the club, we have purchased some quality players (Nedved, buffon, Thuram) and we have lost the defensive mentality of the Ancelotti era. Obviously trez has weighed in with his goals, but maybe if we had the same team but with Pippo we would have done even better? who knows?!

I'm not overly concerned with the type of goals he scores. If trez converts 90-95% of the clear cut box chances he gets, then I would be delighted, though I don't believe this is the case.

What I am more concerned with is the rest of his game. Nobody is asking him to develop extra skills that he does not have, what I want from him is more effort, and I believe I am entitled to ask for this, as apart from score, his hold up play is poor, he often ruins or slows down swift attacks (one touch in particular) and he rarely closes down opponents when on the ball.

Surely we can expect this from a striker?

Replacements for trez..its a tough issue in today's market. I firmly believe Di vaio can do the job, and add more workrate and pace to the side. As for one to purchase its a toughie. Tristan would be one option, and I believe him and DP would work wonders together, I really do, whether depor would sell him of course is another matter. Van Nistlerooy is out of our reach but i would love to see him and Alex paired up. Hasselbaink on form would be good too, and there are some up and coming stars, like Cisse that can surely do a job up front in a top side. Morientes is another idea, he worked wonders with raul, could he do the same with alex? I believe he could.

Obviously there is always an element of risk with any purchase, but it would be worth it if we gained an extra man to the team, a player not just involved with the finish, but one that can create chances, taking the laod of neddy and dp, and also work hard off the ball.

Respaul · Mar 24, 2003

++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
No Ian. This isn't a dead horse. I just simply, for the life of me, cannot understand the strong critique of Trez. I'm not claiming that I'm right, and that criticism of Trez can't be meritted, but...

We haven't had as prolific a goalscorer since Michel Platini looking at goals to games. It's true that his charactheristics necessitate that we play in certain ways, and people can fault him for his mobility or lack hereof, but we sold Pippo because Trez was considered an upgrade, and he has scored with more regularity than Pippo ever did. Hence he was that. An upgrade. Pippo is on the other hand propably the most mobile forward I've ever seen in my life. Hardly anyone runs as many useless miles as he does (that's a positive thing btw. no disrespecting Pippo), but it doesn't change the fact that the results are better with Trez than Pippo looking at production.

Then the same old horse is whipped as to 'the kind of goals he scores'.... For heavens sake. Diego Tristan scores tap ins, headers in the area etc. Vieri scores vitually nothing else. Pippo did the same with us and is doing it now too. Everyone used to complain about him being the tap in king as well as diving king. Van Nistelrooy does it, Owen does it. EVERYONE who scores goals in numbers get's most their goals "cheaply". Del Piero too these days. Most goals are in fact relatively simple finishes, and especially so from the real strikers. Trezeguet has scored some absolutely brilliant goals for us, but in the end most goals will always come to look easy as he's getting his chances inside the penalty area. What's the virtue of such an argument? We've seen how Trezeguet can wickedly finish off chances on the volley, with his head, left or right foot, standing, runnning... doesn't matter. What he cannot do is run at defenders, make fakes and beat an entire defence, but we have others to do that. In recent years- we have never had as productive a forward duo as DP /Trez. Not even DP/Pippo in the glorious 1997/1998 beats Trez/DP last year. This year the two have hardly played together (and we've suffered for it), but the duo still has 19 goals from a combined 31 appearances or something.

Trezeguet has 45 goals from something like 72 serieA games with us (app.15 as a sub) and 11 CL goals from 21 matches I think.
Last season when he was injury free, having gotten used to calcio, he had 32 goals in 44 matches, and now, after having spent ½ the season away- he is getting diatribes his way after only scoring 9 goals in 18 serieA and CL matches.... what's the problem? Are we to sell everyone who has proved to be very valuable and effective assets when they don't litterally sparkle for a 1½ months... coming back from injury?
Yes- if it means being certain of getting Trez caliber finishing, Pippo movement and Cissé pace instead... combined in one player who's an instant fit to calcio and Juventus... but.. pray tell me... who is that player? And how can we be certain that this player will be this effective at Juventus?

Should Del Piero have been sold in 2000?

Glen you dissapoint me, Is that really the best you can come up a few stats and references to players that bear no resemblance to trez whatso ever... yes they all score tap ins but then everyone of them works for his team in the course.
Stats, from a person that so many times has dismissed any stat ive placed in front of him.

And to rip your last ounce of credibility away from yourself at the last stand with the worthless del piero comment.

Dissapointed

Paul

Glen · Mar 24, 2003

Paolo: I'm not claiming you can't ask for more movement from trez. I'm just saying it's very difficult to see who we would/could get who would be an upgrade. You mention Di Vaio, but while that is possible there hasn't been much to suggest it so far I think.
It's possible to say that one expect more movement from Trez. Currently we just don't play a style of football that accomodates him (or the team in general), and if we'd pesist in 4-2-3-1 I would actually be all for selling him (unless of course other investments in midfield would make it plausible that we'd get the cretivity and mobility to play like France where Trez is afterall quite the success, no?).
With DP and Miccoli coming in- I just don't think there's any reason to revert from the 4-3-1-2 where Trezeguet has been so effective, and has earned recognition as one of the deadlies strikers in the world. Trezeguet has looked out of his element since DP got injured. Not only because DP hasn't been there to set him up, but also because he has been isolated in the area. I just don't think the soution to Trez not performing in a system where Juve isn't playing well or has the human resources to excell ought to prompt us to sell or dismiss Trezeguet, but rather go back to the system that has seen us (and him) perform.

Paul: No offence, but I really don't care for the father to son thing.
Provide an argument if you want to dismiss what I said.

When I dismissed your stats I believe it was on Tacchinardi where you used the OPTA stats to 'verify' that he was a brilliant passer, while I said that didn't show alot since a backwards or diagonal pass in defence counts for as much as an offensive one. That one still stands as after Tacchinardi number two on our list is Thuram who's also apparently our most 'dangerous' dribbler if memory serves me right.

Goals are goals however, and we havent' had a striker as prolific since Platini. Is that comparing the two? Is that ignoring that there were other features to Platini's game Trezeguet could never dream to have? NO! It's saying that when comparing the forwards we've had since Platini- NOONE has scored as many goals.

Whether I ripped my last line of credibilty away with the Del Piero comment.... :rolleyes:

. Credibility has to be in the eye of the beholder. Del Piero wasn't effective for us for nearly 1½ years, after his injury. Sure- he played well often enough, but he didn't score which is also a forwards job however much we adore him. Among many others I argued that we HAD to keep him still; that he was coming back from a complicated injury and that there might have been an impact of his fathers ilness to contemplate. Still- there were voices that we should sell him just the same, and I can hardly think that anyone would say the same now.
It's a parallel example as Trezeguet throughout all of last season showed that he's an amazing striker and hugely contributed to us wining Lo scudetto, and if you don't like his charachteristics, you should at least be able to accept his contribution on the scoresheet after the matches. That doesn't make him an icon or fan favourite like DP, but it does make him a very valuable asset, and selling him would be absolutely insane in my view. Or... at least as insane as it would have been selling Del Piero to get another segunda punta at the time.
Both obviously options that could have turned out to actually improve us provided we got the right player- like the Zizou-Nedved switch. It's just not a gamble I'd like to venture into, and if that sepparates us- so be it.

The fact that I use stats I believe to be of relevance to support my stance and 'attacks' the use of stats I don't believe to say anything hardly makes my argumentation suspect by default. It just makes for something to agree or disagree with.

NB: If Vieri and Tristan aren't comparable to Trezeguet as far as their roles and physical charahtheristics are concerned (and I KNOW and AGREE that they're not identical)... who are?
And if Pippo, the one who made way for Trez is not eleglible for discussion in the context... then who is?

Layce Erayce · Mar 24, 2003

respaul I believe that though Glen's post may not have hard facts that he may have put hours of research into, and a flawlessly put-together argument, it still is his opinion and thats what he believes.

I dont see any flaw that is so severe it ruins his credibility. maybe if those are pointed out i will understand your post better....

Tom · Mar 24, 2003

glen I'd love to reply again now but i probably couldn't give it justice since I'm half falling asleep here

denco · Mar 24, 2003

Please when you are talking about Trez, do not bring Zz into the arguement as what you have just stated is incredible.Did you not see the wonderful freekick against Spain or the last minute penalty against Portugal. Please pick your words carefully when you are contributing to an arguement

Respaul · Mar 24, 2003

Your either getting far to sentimental in your old age or should stop taking whatever your particular anaesthetic is that causes you to read these strange interpretations of my words.

Dissapointed... why : You are hailed around here and elsewhere as this all knowing poster with a good argument for everything and someone who at least tries to offer something which could either proove someone wrong or change there opinion.
In this case you gave nothing... A post that was just an eloquent rehash of what had already been written by others.
There are some people here who look for there posts looking for something fruitful, or maybe even on occasion design a post purely to garner a response from certain individuals.
Maybe im wrong for expecting more.

You want me to argue with you yet surely being as the 2 people that brought the view to this thread was tom and myself, so your writings should be countering our statements.

Something you have not done so you have given nothing to argue with.
Plus I would never and have never dismissed your words, they are your right not mine.

Firstly...
I have never had any kind of discusion with you regarding thuram, other than one week when i criticised him in a post match thread and you questioned that... I personally would not waste my time discussing thuram his place in our squad means nothing to me, I have no intrest in him what soever.
Selective memory on the tacchi argument as well... I never said he was a briliant passer, We were discussing the usefulness of his contribution.
And if you remember rightly I supplied you with far more than stats of his pass numbers that included forward and defensive pass percentages and several stats involving key passes, defensive saves etc.

Excuse me, show me where i said the type of goal mattered!!
Did I question that stat... of course not!
Back to stats later

Yes it is.. and in my eyes in this case you did.... To use an example which has no relevance or bearing to the argument to bolster your opinion i find weak. jus MO
If i had at any point questioned his lack of form then fine but I didnt I question his play... his form is irrelevant.

Again where did I bsay his goals didnt contribute to our scudetto victory.... of course they did.

But not in mine... for the money we could receive I personally think we could play a better game without him and the money would help sure up our ever shakey defense.

My problem with your stats is that they are jus goal figures....
~They dont show he has no workrate, they dont say how many times his first touch destroys our attack, they dont say that he is jus about the slowest out an out striker in world football, they dont show shot pertcentages , passes, assists, etc, etc they were jus how many goals he scored.
To me that means little... sorry jus MO

And they dont answer the one question i raised the one reason I personally have no time for him... he does nothing, you may well say thats his job.. but no it isnt or at least shouldnt be, I know of no other striker in the world who has suchj a lack of movement....
I know several that dont touch the ball very often, but then they are constantly moving, dragging defenses working for the team to either run him self into a scoring position or open a defemse for his team mates..... trez does not do this he jus floats and waits... sorry thats not good enough for me or such a great team.

And also why a supposedly world class player seems only to play to form when del piero is present... if he is world class he should be able to adapt to other team mates and also to varying roles which he seems unable to do.
He seems only to play well with a creative along side him, not with others or as a lone striker which he should be suited to with his particular attributes (of course, not that he ever plays well IMO... jus better)

My reason for saying they are not comparable was as i have jus stated... he may be of the same role as those you mention, but everyone of them works for there team, trez does not... he is by far the most static player i have ever seen.

Personally I see trez's place on the pitch as a hindrence to the team... we play with 10 men , you cannot say this doesnt effect us when we are not in the oppositions box.
To me this was shown at the beginning of the season when trez was injured.
With di vaio we far more fluid, controlled , we played well... unfortunately he was bang off form at the time and couldnt score for toffee.... but hey thats football!!

Anyway, enough rambling for now...

It would be boring if we agreed glen, but your the expert not me.

Glen · Mar 25, 2003

I never asked for that. I'm not asking to be held to any particular standarts, nor to be a cause of disappointment when I don't write a novel to back up my position.

I dind't read all of the debate to be honest. My rehash was quite likely very repetitive. I know I've said the same before here and elsewhere. Doesn't make it more correct nor more wrong. At the same time- you complaining that Trez is the most static striker you've ever seen is repetitive too, and your points are wellknown for anyone who've paid attention to your posts over the past year.

That depends on me having to accept the terms of your discussion. I don't. Because I disagree. And I say why I disagree as the 'movement' argument can't be the be all end all for me.

Likewise. I'm just disagreeing with ya both.

I never implied you did. I was just using Thuram to underline the validity of the Tacchinardi analogy, and the difficulty of actually using the OPTA stats meaningfully in general when including the dribbling business.

Come one! You are not seriously suggesting that we fornicate with walls here on year old discussions are you? At the same time I can't think I said Tacchi was useless as a passer, but the discussion centered on disagreemt as to how good he was exactly. You said he was better, I said he was worse. I adore Tacchi and wouldn't call him useless anyway.

Honestly- I don't remember that. Not apart from the ones accessible at the OPTA panels at least which I don't give a hoot for (I'll try and give an example below). I remember you sending me private messages about you not having the time right now, but that you would get back to it and develop on your views. Sorry if I mised it, but I don't recall. I just tried to search for it on your present account name and the old one, but perhaps it's gotten lost in the server business.

That comment og mine had no connection to types of goals. It followed our previous discussion on passing stats that can be interpreteted in different ways like you and I have proven. Went to say that there were no forward or backwards goals, key goals or defensive goals. There are just goals, and if Trezeguet scores with more regularity than anyone we've had since the glorious Platini it speaks in his favor as his occationally flawed movement does the opposite.

Only so because you consider his movement or lack of such cause enough for ditching him. I say if he scores enough he could be a statute. The only time he hasn't been freescoring as a starter at Juve was upon arrival from France and when coming back from injury this season- after DP got injured. We just disagree on what to expect. Hence- my DP analogy holds good for ME as I look at production in another way than you do, and I believe Trezeguet can only be attacked for moderately underperforming this season.... after his injury. hence- this has significance to me whereas you're obviously welcome to dismiss it and disagree. It doesn't render my perspective invalid though.

That's a fair point of view. I just couldn't pretend to understand why.

Why say sorry? My goalfigures means little to you, and the above means nothing to me as I think you're simply being grossly unfair and completely off the mark.

And that is of course again a matter of opinion, and if you think I should counter such points then you'll continue to be disappointed in me, because I have no way to counter your impression of Trez. I don't know where I can get stats on how many miles Trez runs in a game as opposed to others, or how many first controls he misses/makes. All I know is that I watch a completely different footballer than you do. Still- there's no reason to say sorry.

The hermeneutic circle doesn't seem to really work for us

.

We played well? That simply baffles me. Di Vaio was absolutely atrocious with his passing and ball control when playing on top with DP. Whenever he had it he would give it away. That's how I remember him on top. The fact that Salas was even more incriminatingly poor made him start in Trez absence. It wasn't just about the goals. Di Vaio get's the ball more than Trez because he get's more involved and skips his markers more often because of his pace. On that I definately agree. But when one looks at what he has been actually doing with the ball (apart from Juve-Inter) then if you'd look at success rates for passing I believe you'd be seing a more complex picture, although I don't think this means the world either. Especially if we could some how find the success rates for passing when he was one of two strikers compared to his time on the left where he become more invloved.

http://www.planetfootball.com/playe...=128&cpid=21&Title=David+Trezeguet+OPTA+Stats

These are the latest figures for Trez and:

http://www.planetfootball.com/playe...id=128&cpid=21&Title=Marco+Di+Vaio+OPTA+Stats

...these are for Di Vaio.

Trez:
7 goals in 937 minutes- 134 minutes pr goal
Shooting accuracy: 50% inside and 505 outside the area. Goals to shots: 21% inside/25% outside.

Di Vaio:
6 goals in 1167 minutes- 195 minutes pr. goal.
Shooting accuracy: 55 % inside and 63% outside. Goals to shots: 21% inside and 0% outside.

Trez:
Passing: 2 assists, 5 key passes. 179 passes made in the opponents half- completion rate 77% , corners forced: 4.

Di Vaio:
Passing: 1 assist, 10 key passes. 298 passes made- competin rate 70%, corners forced: 12.

Can we agree that the fact Di vaio has played on the left wing and gotten the ball alot more has influence on these stats? Just as I'll agree that Di Vaio is by himself a player who search the ball more?

Trez:
Tackles won: 2, foults comitted: 12/suffered: 3 and rather importantly I think.. offsides: 7 (which speaks in favor of your immobility theory as well, but seing that he was offside 35 times last year, I'll go out on the limp and suggest that the fact he hasn't been fully fit has something to do with this).

Di Vaio:
Tackles won: 14, foults commited 28/suffered: 21, offsides 12 (66 for the season prior to that- change very much because he has been playing a different role at Juve). Bonus category: penalties won: 2.

Surely- Di Vaio is more involved in the physical skirmishes, and is better at it with his pace an important factor. He is a forward however. Trez is a target man striker. They operate on different terms

I don't think it's possible to say that these stats are conclusive in any or either way. It confirms what we know: that DV and Trez are different types of players. You prefer Di Vaio. I prefer Trezeguet. Mainly because I think the DP/Trezeguet partnership is the best there is. In any country and any league or NT. A perfect combination. Just a shame that we've only seen it so little this season.
To add one additional piece in favor of Trez- I think it's necessary to remember that he has in fact been out with injury for half the season.

When did I claim to be the expert and not you? As you said it would be boring if we agreed on everything. But why play that card when I'm not arguing that my opinion is more correct than yours? We are both trying to win over the other by argumentation aren't we? So please just keep arguing your points of view, and stop trying to force some kind of superiority trip on to me.

Ciao.

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