Where are you on Dawkins Scale? (3 Viewers)

Where are you on Dawkins Scale?

  • 1-Strong theist. 100% possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know"

  • 2-Very high probability 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God

  • 3-Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism

  • 4-Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic.

  • 5-Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism.

  • 6-Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist.

  • 7-Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one


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Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#41
Exactly, it's blind faith and has nothing to do with logical thinking, when you say he wasn't created because he's God, but then say there has to be a God because it's impossible that we would exist without him.
Everything has a beggining, logically. The beggining of the universe was a result of god's actions. Nothing is before the beggining. Take the alphabet for example, before B there is A, you cannot tell me that there must have been something before A therefore A can not have been the beggining.

God is inifinte, he does not start or end, unlike the universe. Theists believe that an inifinite source(god) created the beggining(universe), he is the beggining itself.
 

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Zlatan

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2003
23,049
#42
Everything has a beggining, logically. The beggining of the universe was a result of god's actions. Nothing is before the beggining. Take the alphabet for example, before B there is A, you cannot tell me that there must have been something before A therefore A can not have been the beggining.

God is inifinte, he does not start or end, unlike the universe. Theists believe that an inifinite source(god) created the beggining(universe), he is the beggining itself.
So in other words, nothing can exist without being created.

But God wasn't created, he just exists because he's God?
 
OP
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*aca*

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Jul 15, 2002
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  • Thread Starter #44
    So, almost all people you met who call themselves atheists use the 'light' definition of atheism? For if they would exclude the existence of god, they would contradict themselves because of what you've just said.
    sorry i missed out on this post :)

    7s are rare in Atheist community. Most of the atheist i know will describe atheism as "lack of beliefs" in god and nothing more than that. There is no ideology behind it, no set system of rules, no obligatory beliefs. There are atheists that are on the right wing, there are atheists that are on the left wing. There are atheists that have firm belief in aliens. Being an atheist requires only one thing.

    They say that herding the the atheists is equivalent of herding cats :D

    It is extremly hard to put them under one umbrella. That's why their lobbying power, for instance, in the USA is so weak.
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
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    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    #45
    It is anything but illogical.

    Its rather simple. IF everything is created, who created god? You can define god out of everything, but then word everything loses its meaning. Which one is it?

    Furthermore, we do not need "faith" in the "created" because its there and its tangible. We know that the universe exist. No faith needed.

    Last, how do you know it's a "he" and not she?
    The Universe is tangible but not God. That's the whole reason you refuse to believe in God; he's the unseen and the untouchable.

    Faith in the created? I said we have faith in the creator.

    I refer to him as a he, but God's neither.
     
    OP
    *aca*

    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #46
    Everything has a beggining, logically. The beggining of the universe was a result of god's actions. Nothing is before the beggining. Take the alphabet for example, before B there is A, you cannot tell me that there must have been something before A therefore A can not have been the beggining.

    God is inifinte, he does not start or end, unlike the universe. Theists believe that an inifinite source(god) created the beggining(universe), he is the beggining itself.

    it's only 50 seconds
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #47
    Name one thing that exist and you have no evidence for it.






    In God Delusion, Dawkins gives a statistics of the survey between scientist on this same set as in my opening post. Here is what he says:

    "The equivalent of the US National Academy of Sciences in Britain (and the Commonwealth, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, anglophone Africa, etc.) is the Royal Society. As this book goes to press, my colleagues R. Elisabeth Cornwell and Michael Stirrat are writing up their comparable, but more thorough, research on the religious opinions of the Fellows of the Royal Society (FRS). The authors’ conclusions will be published in full later, but they have kindly allowed me to quote preliminary results here. They used a standard technique for scaling opinion, the Likert-type seven-point scale. All 1,074 Fellows of the Royal Society who possess an email address (the great majority) were polled, and about 23 per cent responded (a good figure for this kind of study). They were offered various propositions, for example: ‘I believe in a personal God, that is one who takes an interest in {102} individuals, hears and answers prayers, is concerned with sin and transgressions, and passes judgement.’ For each such proposition, they were invited to choose a number from 1 (strong disagreement) to 7 (strong agreement). It is a little hard to compare the results directly with the Larson and Witham study, because Larson and Witham offered their academicians only a three-point scale, not a seven-point scale, but the overall trend is the same. The overwhelming majority of FRS, like the overwhelming majority of US Academicians, are atheists. Only 3.3 per cent of the Fellows agreed strongly with the statement that a personal god exists (i.e. chose 7 on the scale), while 78.8 per cent strongly disagreed (i.e. chose 1 on the scale). If you define ‘believers’ as those who chose 6 or 7, and if you define ‘unbelievers’ as those who chose 1 or 2, there were a massive 213 unbelievers and a mere 12 believers. Like Larson and Witham, and as also noted by Beit-Hallahmi and Argyle, Cornwell and Stirrat found a small but significant tendency for biological scientists to be even more atheistic than physical scientists."

    Scientists will keep their mind open, but they will not ignore the evidence (or lack of it ;))
    The first part. We know there exists different minds other than ours yet we cannot prove it.





    The second part. Coincidentally, you chose the field of science, how conveniant. Anyone who is attracted to science in the first place has a tendency to disbelieve in god. This does not mean that intelligent people are for the most part, atheists.

    I can show you an artists who believe in god that is more intelligent that the most decorated and respected scientists. Hence, there is a massive difference between the words "intellectual" and "intelligence".
     
    OP
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    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #48
    The Universe is tangible but not God. That's the whole reason you refuse to believe in God; he's the unseen and the untouchable.

    Faith in the created? I said we have faith in the creator.

    I refer to him as a he, but God's neither.
    how do you know that universe is tangible and god is not?

    I said that you don't need faith in the "created" because it's there. You dont need faith that there is a computer in front of you. You don't need "faith" that sun will come out tomorrow, you don't need faith that oranges are orange, you do not need faith that Juve lost to Napoli tonight ( :D )

    Why, for everything that happens in your life, you need don't need faith and god is the exception?

    As regards to the sex of god (assuming that he/she exists), i wish he was a female. This world would have been a better place
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #49
    So in other words, nothing can exist without being created.

    But God wasn't created, he just exists because he's God?
    Your orginal statement is absolutely true. I said god is inifinite meaning god does not begin or end. He is infinity, you cannot limit infinity to a number because it is infinity. He doesn't exist because he is just god, no, he exists because he has no limit, he not beggining or end. He is inifinity.
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
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    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    #50
    how do you know that universe is tangible and god is not?

    I said that you don't need faith in the "created" because it's there. You dont need faith that there is a computer in front of you. You don't need "faith" that sun will come out tomorrow, you don't need faith that oranges are orange, you do not need faith that Juve lost to Napoli tonight ( :D )

    Why, for everything that happens in your life, you need don't need faith and god is the exception?
    Did you know that Juve was going to lose to Napoli? You as a Juve fan (I assume you are) have faith in your squad. The sun doesn't necessarily have to rise in the morning, we simply expect it to; you don't know whether it'll become a black dwarf.

    So you see it's not about it being an exception when it comes to God. It's simply a faith.

    As regards to the sex of god (assuming that he/she exists), i wish he was a female. This world would have been a better place
    That's if you believe that you don't have free will. I believe I have free will and therefore I don't blame God for everything bad in this world.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #51
    how do you know that universe is tangible and god is not?

    I said that you don't need faith in the "created" because it's there. You dont need faith that there is a computer in front of you. You don't need "faith" that sun will come out tomorrow, you don't need faith that oranges are orange, you do not need faith that Juve lost to Napoli tonight ( :D )

    Why, for everything that happens in your life, you need don't need faith and god is the exception?

    As regards to the sex of god (assuming that he/she exists), i wish he was a female. This world would have been a better place
    You mean like a chick with a dick, that's just sick man.
     
    OP
    *aca*

    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #52
    The first part. We know there exists different minds other than ours yet we cannot prove it.
    Solipsism is the dead end to any argument. Sorry, but that's not something I'll allow myself do be dragged into :)



    The second part. Coincidentally, you chose the field of science, how conveniant. Anyone who is attracted to science in the first place has a tendency to disbelieve in god. This does not mean that intelligent people are for the most part, atheists.

    I can show you an artists who believe in god that is more intelligent that the most decorated and respected scientists. Hence, there is a massive difference between the words "intellectual" and "intelligence".
    I obviously chose the field of science because if we are talking facts and evidence there is no other field that can provide strong basis for ascertaining the existence or non-existence of anything, god included. I can philosophically define myself out of existence, it would still not make it factual.

    Intelligence means nothing. Newton was an extremely intelligent man who was wrong about many things, including physics. Nikola Tesla brought electricity to our homes, yet he believed that we will never be able to get the energy out of an atom. He was also wrong. If we are talking about the truth, facts stand on their own, regardless of the intelligence of the person providing the facts.
     
    OP
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    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #53
    Did you know that Juve was going to lose to Napoli? You as a Juve fan (I assume you are) have faith in your squad. The sun doesn't necessarily have to rise in the morning, we simply expect it to; you don't know whether it'll become a black dwarf.

    So you see it's not about it being an exception when it comes to God. It's simply a faith.
    Wrong on both accounts :D

    First i am not a juve fan. ;)

    Secondly, we know that there is extremely high probability that sun will rise tomorrow because it's been doing that for last 4 billion years at least and it's been doing that since we first experienced it. No faith, just weighing the facts. It is possible that it will eventually become a black dwarf, but the chance of that happening in our lifetime is so small that is completely irrelevant to my life and i will live my life accordingly. If the sun does turn into black dwarf, i don not think i'll be eable to experience it & make different conclusions. [/quote]



    That's if you believe that you don't have free will. I believe I have free will and therefore I don't blame God for everything bad in this world.
    Free will is entirely different topic, which, again time permitting, i would be willing to discuss, but it would derail this thread.

    It's one of the best arguments against existence of the abrahamic god (immediately after problem of evil).
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #54
    Solipsism is the dead end to any argument. Sorry, but that's not something I'll allow myself do be dragged into :)



    I obviously chose the field of science because if we are talking facts and evidence there is no other field that can provide strong basis for ascertaining the existence or non-existence of anything, god included. I can philosophically define myself out of existence, it would still not make it factual.

    Intelligence means nothing. Newton was an extremely intelligent man who was wrong about many things, including physics. Nikola Tesla brought electricity to our homes, yet he believed that we will never be able to get the energy out of an atom. He was also wrong. If we are talking about the truth, facts stand on their own, regardless of the intelligence of the person providing the facts.
    You just contradicted yourself.

    At first, you give us a statistic that suggest the most intelligent scientific minds believe that god does not exist, you are suggesting that these intelligent people have to be right.

    Now you say that believing an intelligent person is irrelevant because he/she doesn't have to be right.
     
    OP
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    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #55
    sorry guys, but i feel like i am an amateur porn star doing an audition of the gang bang movie :D

    it's almost 1am here, and i have life to live. I'll try my best to reply to everyone, but unlike a chick that can serve many at the same time :D, i have only two hands and one sleepy head ;)
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
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    Dec 10, 2004
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    #56
    Wrong on both accounts :D

    First i am not a juve fan. ;)

    Secondly, we know that there is extremely high probability that sun will rise tomorrow because it's been doing that for last 4 billion years at least and it's been doing that since we first experienced it. No faith, just weighing the facts. It is possible that it will eventually become a black dwarf, but the chance of that happening in our lifetime is so small that is completely irrelevant to my life and i will live my life accordingly. If the sun does turn into black dwarf, i don not think i'll be eable to experience it & make different conclusions.

    Free will is entirely different topic, which, again time permitting, i would be willing to discuss, but it would derail this thread.

    It's one of the best arguments against existence of the abrahamic god (immediately after problem of evil).
    If you're not a Juve fan then what are you doing here? The talk about God alone drew you back? :D

    Listen, you didn't have to take my example literally. My whole point was that there is a difference in what you expect and what you have faith in. You can't honestly say that you never have to 'have faith' in something.

    If you lend someone money you have faith in that he/she will return it otherwise you're a fool for lending out. You have faith in that if you mess up that your parents will bail you out of trouble because they love you.

    Find the time, you know the place :D
     
    OP
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    *aca*

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  • Thread Starter #57
    You just contradicted yourself.

    At first, you give us a statistic that suggest the most intelligent scientific minds believe that god does not exist, you are suggesting that these intelligent people have to be right.

    Now you say that believing an intelligent person is irrelevant because he/she doesn't have to be right.
    huh?

    sorry man, reading comprehension failure on your behalf....

    Intelligence is irrelevant when it comes to method of ascertaining facts. That's all.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #59
    sorry guys, but i feel like i am an amateur porn star doing an audition of the gang bang movie :D

    it's almost 1am here, and i have life to live. I'll try my best to reply to everyone, but unlike a chick that can serve many at the same time :D, i have only two hands and one sleepy head ;)
    Take all the time you want. No one is in a rush. :D
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #60
    huh?

    sorry man, reading comprehension failure on your behalf....

    Intelligence is irrelevant when it comes to method of ascertaining facts. That's all.
    So why did you give us examples of intelligent people who are atheists when intelligence has no relevance in ascernating facts?
     

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