What is your god like? (12 Viewers)

[DelpieroForLife]

Can you speculate on why god revealed this book to some illiterate guy in the desert, while snubbing for example South East Asia? Was it his plan all along that for instance Indonesia, which today is mostly a Muslim country, did not receive his words until a thousand years later? Were they not worthy or what?

If he revealed his book in Indonesia you would still ask why he didn't reveal it to some illiterate guy in the desert of middle east.

 

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[Martin]

No i cannot speculate, you have to go to a cleric(a real one, not the radical extremists in the Saudi, nor the government appointed ones that are there to serve personal interests) to answer that question for you.

Do you think it's an interesting question, though?

 

[Fred]

Yeah, absolutely no aberrations from the standard qoranic text, right? No unconventional verse orderings no textual variations etc. It's exactly the way God said it.

I believe so yes. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Fred]

Do you think it's an interesting question, though?

Yes it is, one that probably has an answer.

 

[Martin]

If he revealed his book in Indonesia you would still ask why he didn't reveal it to some illiterate guy in the desert of middle east.

Why not both, so it would reach many more people?

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Who is "I"? I believe that some human is using an account called DelpieroForLife to talk to me on this forum.

Of course, what else goes through your mind

 

[Alen]

I believe so yes. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

If i'm an archeologist and i find a manuscript of the Quran from the 7th century which won't be the same as the standard qoranic version, which is even older than the standard version, what would you say about it?

Logically, it would mean that the quran was changing over time, right? That what you have today is not exactly what God said.

P.S: And what if even this version is a palimpsest, writen over an even older text of the quran?

 

[Fred]

Why not both, so it would reach many more people?

Why not 3? why not 4? why not 10? 20? 100? 10000?

We could go on forever. Point is, it was one, and Islam reached Indonesia anyway, so whats the fuss about?

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Why not both, so it would reach many more people?

If he reveal it both you would still ask why not reveal it to someone from Negiria, Morocco, Egypt.... as well.

See it never ends.

 

[Fred]

If i'm an archeologist and i find a manuscript of the Quran from the 7th century which won't be the same as the standard qoranic version, which is even older than the standard version, what would you say about it?

Logically, it would mean that the quran was changing over time, right? That what you have today is not exactly what God said.

Well it depends actually. Some people might have tried to change it, but i'm sure they failed.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

If i'm an archeologist and i find a manuscript of the Quran from the 7th century which won't be the same as the standard qoranic version, which is even older than the standard version, what would you say about it?

Logically, it would mean that the quran was changing over time, right? That what you have today is not exactly what God said.

P.S: And what if even this version is a palimpsest, writen over an even older text of the quran?

If this ever happen I will most certainly lose my faith.

 

[Martin]

Why not 3? why not 4? why not 10? 20? 100? 10000?

Exactly, why not? Why not reveal himself to every person on earth, that way we would not spend thousands of years fighting over it?

We could go on forever. Point is, it was one, and Islam reached Indonesia anyway, so whats the fuss about?

Because to someone who doesn't buy this story it looks like it's made up.

 

[Alen]

Well it depends actually. Some people might have tried to change it, but i'm sure they failed.

Ok, but what if i find a version of the qoran older than Uthman's official, standardized version and if the older version is different, even if it's slightly different, from Uthman's version?
Won't it make you wonder why is the older version different? Because in this case the one who tried to change it was Uthman, right?

I'm talking about the Sana'a manuscripts. You probably know much more about them than i do, so i wonder what do you think about these manuscripts?

 

[Seven]

I did not give any proof. I am not an expert in my religion, and i really don't know that much anyway. Someone more knowledgable than me might be able to prove it, i don't know. What i am saying is that Seven is just speculating.

"He might have lied, afterall xxx did it"

Imo that is irrelevant, like i said. I accuse you of stealing from me, you say you didn't. i say that Seven has done it before so you probably did it too. Not convincing imo.

That's why I wasn't really talking to you. DelPieroForLife insisted that he could come up with proof. I said I doubted that. I didn't make the first claim.

The Joseph Smith story would, according to your analogy, mean that people are able to steal. Because they have done so before.

Man, you'd suck in court

Actually an atheists position is the easiest to take. All you have to do is sit down, ask people for concrete evidence (which is almost impossible to provide anyway) and just reject everything you hear.

Of course it is.

 

[Seven]

I believe so yes. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Is it exactly what God said?

Because Allah would be speaking to himself then.

 

[Seven]

No i cannot speculate, you have to go to a cleric(a real one, not the radical extremists in the Saudi, nor the government appointed ones that are there to serve personal interests) to answer that question for you.

Wait, this is your religion, your LIFE and you can't answer that question? You say someone else should answer it for you?

That's insane.

 

[Fred]

Ok, but what if i find a version of the qoran older than Uthman's official, standardized version and if the older version is different, even if it's slightly different, from Uthman's version?
Won't it make you wonder why is the older version different? Because in this case the one who tried to change it was Uthman, right?

I'm talking about the Sana'a manuscripts. You probably know much more about them than i do, so i wonder what do you think about these manuscripts?

You see, before Uthman standardized the manuscripts and collected all the verses and Sura's in one book. Many of the Prophet's companions had written what they memorized for their own personal use, what was found in Yemen could have been one of those.

 

[Fred]

That's why I wasn't really talking to you. DelPieroForLife insisted that he could come up with proof. I said I doubted that. I didn't make the first claim.

The Joseph Smith story would, according to your analogy, mean that people are able to steal. Because they have done so before.

Man, you'd suck in court



Of course it is.

Yes the Joseph Smith story would also mean that people are able to lie, if you read properly i did not deny that. But it doesn't mean that the prophet(pbuh) did lie.

 

[Seven]

Yes the Joseph Smith story would also mean that people are able to lie, if you read properly i did not deny that. But it doesn't mean that the prophet(pbuh) did lie.

But I'm not claiming that he did. My claim is that he's human and humans are able to lie. Thus he is able to lie. Doesn't mean he did lie.

 

[Martin]

Yes the Joseph Smith story would also mean that people are able to lie, if you read properly i did not deny that. But it doesn't mean that the prophet(pbuh) did lie.

wth?