What is your god like? (14 Viewers)

[rounder]

This is utter speculative buffoonery.

Or to use a more technical term: rationalization. When bad stuff happens people always try to make themselves feel better by saying it was inevitable and that "it happened for a reason". Yeah, sometimes it does happen for a reason, but sometimes it doesn't. But above all you have no evidence to make a claim saying "without suffering there would be no happiness". That's just you talking out of your ass as the saying goes.

I think it was Socrates that once said, " Evil is the absence of good".

The two complement each other, and so do happiness and sadness, pleasure and pain. Without one, the other cannot possibly exist. It is surprising that you fail to see the rational behind this. If there was no sadness in the world, how could I experience happiness? Indeed, how could I even identify what happiness is?

I suggest you think for a moment about this one Martin.

 

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[DelpieroForLife]

you really wanna go there? who designed the designer?

Before I answer you.... How can you explain the starting point in your view?

 

[Martin]

I think it was Socrates that once said, " Evil is the absence of good".

The two complement each other, and so do happiness and sadness, pleasure and pain. Without one, the other cannot possibly exist. It is surprising that you fail to see the rational behind this. If there was no sadness in the world, how could I experience happiness? Indeed, how could I even identify what happiness is?

I suggest you think for a moment about this one Martin.

Pure speculation. Noone has ever proved that happiness comes out of sadness. What is happiness really? It's a particular state of particles in your brain. And you're claiming this state cannot occur until you've experienced sadness? On what basis?

 

[Martin]

Before I answer you.... How can you explain the starting point in your view?

It's you who should give the first explanation, because you are the one who gave the criticism "something cannot come out of nothing". So at least show that this axoim is consistent with your own theory, otherwise we can dismiss it right now.

 

[rounder]

you really wanna go there? who designed the designer?

http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27611

To add to this. Nothing can design God since god is supernatural, endless, timeless. If you fail to understand this, then you fail to understand the nature of God.

 

[rounder]

Pure speculation. Noone has ever proved that happiness comes out of sadness. What is happiness really? It's a particular state of particles in your brain. And you're claiming this state cannot occur until you've experienced sadness? On what basis?

No, this sate cannot occur if sadness does not exist. If you don't no or have an idea of what it is to be sad, how can you possibly know you are happy?

Since this is a football forum, let me put it into football context.

If you are a die hard Juve fan and the only game you have ever seen was the Juve A team vs the Juve B team games, you have never seen any other game in your life. If I asked you tell me whether you think Juventus plays attractive football, can you answer me?

 

[DelpieroForLife]

It's you who should give the first explanation, because you are the one who gave the criticism "something cannot come out of nothing". So at least show that this axoim is consistent with your own theory, otherwise we can dismiss it right now.

I believe God (Super Power, Universe Director whatever the name is) can't be judged or recognized using the rules of a universe he created at first place.

Taking this in consideration there is no way to answer the when, where, what, who questions related to God

I've posted this before but I feel the need to post it again.

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

Albert Einstein.

 

[Martin]

No, this sate cannot occur if sadness does not exist. If you don't no or have an idea of what it is to be sad, how can you possibly know you are happy?

Stop philosophizing, it's getting you nowhere. Humans perceive emotions as a result of particular brain states. This is evident through the use of drugs. Antidepressants regulate neurotransmitters and receptors so that certain neural signals are amplified or diminished. This is also what happens with unregulated drugs like heroin. All these emotions induced by drugs (happiness being one of them) are purely a result of neurotransmitters.

Now guess what, these psychoactive drugs will affect you whatever your history is. It's not so that heroin only works on people who have experienced trauma or whatever. They work on anyone.

If you are a die hard Juve fan and the only game you have ever seen was the Juve A team vs the Juve B team games, you have never seen any other game in your life. If I asked you tell me whether you think Juventus plays attractive football, can you answer me?

This has nothing to do with happiness.

 

[Martin]

I believe God (Super Power, Universe Director whatever the name is) can't be judged or recognized using the rules of a universe he created at first place.

Taking this in consideration there is no way to answer the when, where, what, who questions related to God

Okay, so I can say the same thing. Our universe can't be judged or recognized using the rules of itself.

Problem solved.

Either the universe itself is unexplainable or we can explain the universe but we can't explain god. Either way we have something unexplainable, so we have achieved nothing by inventing god.

 

[rounder]

Stop philosophizing, it's getting you nowhere. Humans perceive emotions as a result of particular brain states. This is evident through the use of drugs. Antidepressants regulate neurotransmitters and receptors so that certain neural signals are amplified or diminished. This is also what happens with unregulated drugs like heroin. All these emotions induced by drugs (happiness being one of them) are purely a result of neurotransmitters.

Now guess what, these psychoactive drugs will affect you whatever your history is. It's not so that heroin only works on people who have experienced trauma or whatever. They work on anyone.


This has nothing to do with happiness.

It has everything to do with happiness. If I showed you one painting in life and no other, how can you possibly tell me it is beautiful? Beautiful relative to what?

The concept here is simple. Please answer my question directly for once. You cannot tell me Juventus plays attractive football, nor can you tell me the painting is beautiful, you cannot be experience happiness if sadness does not exist, you cannot understand beauty if ugliness does not exist, you cannot experience freedom if oppression does not exist.

I am philosophizing, yes, but my philosophy does have logical grounds and I'm sorry but you have done nothing to show me why my arguments fail.

 

[Martin]

It has everything to do with happiness. If I showed you one painting in life and no other, how can you possibly tell me it is beautiful? Beautiful relative to what?

The concept here is simple. Please answer my question directly for once. You cannot tell me Juventus plays attractive football, nor can you tell me the painting is beautiful, you cannot be experience happiness if sadness does not exist, you cannot understand beauty if ugliness does not exist, you cannot experience freedom if oppression does not exist.

I am philosophizing, yes, but my philosophy does have logical grounds and I'm sorry but you have done nothing to show me why my arguments fail.

Yes, they are logical, but they are not based on anything but your own speculation. I told you emotions are a result of neurological signals in the brain. That actually says something about how what we feel relates to the physical world. What you say doesn't.

 

[rounder]

Yes, they are logical, but they are not based on anything but your own speculation. I told you emotions are a result of neurological signals in the brain. That actually says something about how what we feel relates to the physical world. What you say doesn't.

Do you agree with the typical argument," how can a loving God allow suffering in the world?"

 

[Martin]

Do you agree with the typical argument," how can a loving God allow suffering in the world?"

I've made that argument lots of times.

 

[rounder]

I've made that argument lots of times.

Okay, I have responded to that argument with two other arguments of my own.

1) If we were to have freewill, suffering would be a necessity.

2) Without suffering, we cannot experience alternative emotions such as happiness.

I will add a final third argument that supports (1).

To claim that "X" does not exist, you must prove that things would be different if "X" did exist. Let us replace the variable with freewill.

To prove that free will does not exist, you must prove that things would be different if free will did exist. Before you attempt this, physical capablities are irrelevant. I am talking about a human being's free will, not superman's or Neo's free will.

 

[Hist]

Yes, they are logical, but they are not based on anything but your own speculation. I told you emotions are a result of neurological signals in the brain. That actually says something about how what we feel relates to the physical world. What you say doesn't.

Happiness cannot be understood without sadness and vice versa, BUT that doesnt mean they cant be felt.

You can feel happiness regardless of your history.. after all you'll experience one before the other. but you wont appreciate it or understand it unless you witness the contrast.

 

[rounder]

Happiness cannot be understood without sadness and vice versa, BUT that doesnt mean they cant be felt.

You can feel happiness regardless of your history.. after all you'll experience one before the other. but you wont appreciate it or understand it unless you witness the contrast.

That's absolutely the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

 

[Martin]

Happiness cannot be understood without sadness and vice versa, BUT that doesnt mean they cant be felt.

You can feel happiness regardless of your history.. after all you'll experience one before the other. but you wont appreciate it or understand it unless you witness the contrast.

You're completely correct (according to my pathetically weak knowledge of the brain ) to say that feeling an emotion and understanding it are two very different things. However, you have not convinced me that you know the preconditions for this understanding to occur.

 

[Martin]

Okay, I have responded to that argument with two other arguments of my own.

1) If we were to have freewill, suffering would be a necessity.

2) Without suffering, we cannot experience alternative emotions such as happiness.

I will add a final third argument that supports (1).

To claim that "X" does not exist, you must prove that things would be different if "X" did exist. Let us replace the variable with freewill.

To prove that free will does not exist, you must prove that things would be different if free will did exist. Before you attempt this, physical capablities are irrelevant. I am talking about a human being's free will, not superman's or Neo's free will.

"Free will does not exist" is not exactly what I meant. I don't think I can explain it though, so I'll put it this way instead:

Even if suffering is necessary, why is there precisely this much suffering in the world and not more or less?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27611

To add to this. Nothing can design God since god is supernatural, endless, timeless. If you fail to understand this, then you fail to understand the nature of God.

but you fail to see that any one ordinary man's opinion on god is as good as anyone else's.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

Before I answer you.... How can you explain the starting point in your view?

that life in the universe was inevitable? i already explained that, sheer number of planets determines it.