What is your god like? (8 Viewers)

[Alen]

I don't see how that's relevant Martin. If historians chose to document Jesus' resurrection 2 or 200 years after his death, it makes absolutely no difference. The point is, there are alternative sources other than the Bible that have stated Jesus' resurrection.

Read again what did these historians you quoted say about Jesus resurrection :

-Tacitus says nothing at all
-Suetonius says nothing at all
-Julius Africanus was a 3rd century Christian. He was writing 200 years after the "resurrection", 70 years after the Christian teachers began to produce theological and apologetic works aimed at defending the faith.
-Pliny the Younger says nothing at all
- Emperor Trajan says nothing at all
- Emperer Hadrian says nothing at all
- Lucian says nothing at all
- Mara Bar-Serapion says nothing at all
- Flavius Josephus text was a forgery

 

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[rounder]

Clement, elder of Rome, letter to the Corinthian church (95 AD):

"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."




Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, letter to the Trallians (110-115 AD):

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth; who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His Father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe on Him."




Ignatius, letter to the Smyrneans (110-115 AD):

"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptised by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of his most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection."

"For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, 'Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body.' And straightway they touched him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. And after His resurrection He ate with them and drank with them."




Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians (110-115 AD):

"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate; for these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope."




Quadratus, to Emperor Hadrian about 125 AD:

"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when He had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."




(Pseudo-)Barnabas, written 130-138 AD:

"He must needs be manifested in the flesh. ... He preached teaching Israel and performing so many wonders and miracles, and He loved them exceedingly. ... He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel. ... But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him to suffer on a tree."




Justin Martyr, to Emperor Antoninus Pius about 150 AD:

After referring to Jesus's birth of a virgin in the town of Bethlehem, and that His physical line of descent came through the tribe of Judah and the family of Jesse, Justin wrote, "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea."

"Accordingly, after He was crucified, even all His acquaintances forsook Him, having denied Him; and afterwards, when He had risen from the dead and appeared to them, and had taught them to read the prophecies in which all these things were foretold as coming to pass, and when they had seen Him ascending into heaven, and had believed, and had received power sent thence by Him upon them, and went to every race of men, they taught these things, and were called apostles."




Justin Martyr, in Dialogue with Trypho, around 150 AD:

"For at the time of His birth, Magi who came from Arabia worshipped Him, coming first to Herod, who then was sovereign in your land."

"For when they crucified Him, driving in the nails, they pierced His hands and feet; and those who crucified Him parted His garments among themselves, each casting lots for what he chose to have, and receiving according to the decision of the lot."

"Christ said amongst you that He would give the sign of Jonah, exhorting you to repent of your wicked deeds at least after He rose again from the dead ... yet you not only have not repented, after you learned that He rose from the dead, but, as I said before, you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that 'a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilean deceiver, whom we crucified, but His disciples stole Him by night from the tomb, where He was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that He has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.'"

"For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."

 

[rounder]

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

 

[Alen]

Okay, are there no historical documents that state there was a man named Jesus who was crucified, and on the third day, his tomb was found empty? I have seen so many, and please don't make me find them right now, it's late here.

I challenge you to find one single historical document writen after Jesus died or 50 years after his death where the resurrection is mentioned.
Man, there were many historians writing in this period. What are the chances that not even one of them mentioned how a man rised from the dead?

The ones who write about it are Christians and they write almost 100 years after the death.

 

[Fred]

This must be completely foreign to you, because it's a western thing. But the urge for freedom is actually a pretty universal one. People like to be free, like not to be told what to do, like not to be supervised constantly. They do not in fact crave submission or slavery. But I guess you're different.



So what? Why should I care what I'd be like if I were born in the east?

Ever heard of Aristotle's quote about Arab's? the one where he said something along the lines of "Arab's have a slave culture, " ie they are more prone to submission and letting go of their freedom than westerners. i thought that was very interesting, i guess it explains why we've always been ruled by dictators.

 

[rounder]

Please read the above link.

 

[Martin]

Ever heard of Aristotle's quote about Arab's? the one where he said something along the lines of "Arab's have a slave culture, " ie they are more prone to submission and letting go of their freedom than westerners. i thought that was very interesting, i guess it explains why we've always been ruled by dictators.

No, I must have missed that meeting. Much like you've been missing this thread

But since you bring it up I have to say you seem relatively at peace with the state of affairs (?)

 

[rounder]

Ever heard of Aristotle's quote about Arab's? the one where he said something along the lines of "Arab's have a slave culture, " ie they are more prone to submission and letting go of their freedom than westerners. i thought that was very interesting, i guess it explains why we've always been ruled by dictators.

I guess I was right about cultural effects then.

 

[rounder]

I challenge you to find one single historical document writen after Jesus died or 50 years after his death where the resurrection is mentioned.
Man, there were many historians writing in this period. What are the chances that not even one of them mentioned how a man rised from the dead?

The ones who write about it are Christians and they write almost 100 years after the death.

So what is your theory?

 

[Alen]

The ones who write about it are Christians and they write almost 100 years after the death.

And all of these "historians" write after the gospels of Matthew, John and Luke were writen. Actually, they're simply stealing from the gospels.

 

[rounder]

So why are the gospels false?

 

[rounder]

Often people are uncertain about the existence of Christ, but few scholars would disagree that a man named Jesus lived roughly between 2 BC and about 33 AD. History documents that this man was not a myth but a real person and the historical evidence for this is excellent. For instance, the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition [Christ's resurrection] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. (Bettenson, p. 2)

In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:

"I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do." (Bettenson, p. 3)

These passages indicate that Christianity was wide spread in the Roman empire within 80 years of Christ's death. Again, these are eyewitness accounts, not historians looking back years later.

The popular historian Will Durant, himself not a Christian, wrote concerning Christ's historical validity, "The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity" (Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. 3, p. 555). And again, "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels" (Ibid., p. 557).

It is a substantial thing that an historian who spends his life considering historical facts should affirm the reality of Christ's existence as well as the rapid growth of the early movement.

The Jewish historian Josephus,writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the gospels) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, ch. V, p. 20; Book XX, ch. IX, p. 140 ). Again we have sources external to the Bible that demonstrate the historical reliability of the text. Josephus, who was probably alive during the time of Christ, is attesting to the reality of his existence. What this also tells us is that within 40 years of Christ's death, the knowledge of who he was was widespread enough that Josephus could reference him and expect his readers to know exactly who he was talking about.

 

[Alen]

So what is your theory?

There are no writen sources about the resurrection before the gospels were writen, simply because the story (sorry, i know you don't like it but it's just a story to me) was invented sometime in the last two decades of the first century AD.
After it was writen for the first time we get many others writing about it.

 

[Alen]

Often people are uncertain about the existence of Christ, but few scholars would disagree that a man named Jesus lived roughly between 2 BC and about 33 AD.

Actually, i believe that a man named Jesus did exist. You don't have to convince me.

 

[rounder]

Julius Africanus was a North African Christian teacher writing in A.D. 215. He recorded the writing of a pagan historian by the name Thallus who wrote his book in A.D. 52 only twenty years after the resurrection of Christ. Thallus wrote that the darkness totally covered the land at the time of the Passover in A.D. 32. Julius Africanus records, "As to [Jesus'] works severally, and His cures effected upon body and soul, and the mysteries of His doctrine, and the resurrection from the dead, these have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness, Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes

place only when the moon comes under the sun." (Thallus (Samaritan, 1st century) -Julius Africanus, Extant Writings 18, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 6).

ted stor

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/historicalev.htm

 

[rounder]

Alen, did you check out the link I posted?


http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

 

[rounder]

It is also important to recognize that in 70 A.D., the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground! We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eye-witnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

 

[Fred]

No, I must have missed that meeting. Much like you've been missing this thread

But since you bring it up I have to say you seem relatively at peace with the state of affairs (?)

I do?


95% of the population has been indoctrinated to accept things the way they are and easily let go of their basic liberties though. Most people don't even think thats a problem.

 

[Martin]

I do?


95% of the population has been indoctrinated to accept things the way they are and easily let go of their basic liberties though. Most people don't even think thats a problem.

I guess we haven't really talked about it much, have we?

The strange thing is you're in direct shall we say reciprocity with Salman. He'd love nothing more than a strong hand ruling Pakistan. And that's what you got, but you don't like it. Maybe you two should switch.

 

[Seven]

Actually, i believe that a man named Jesus did exist. You don't have to convince me.

There's a lot of secondary evidence that points to the existence of Jesus or at least someone they based the later image of Jesus on. All of this obviously does not mean that the stories told are true.