What is your god like? (16 Viewers)

[Martin]

I know these emotions happen in the brain, my point is that they cannot possible be scientifically proven. Meaning that you cannot prove the beauty of a painting for example. These are emotions, immaterial things, that science cannot prove or explain.

They can be shown scientifically. But you wouldn't believe me if I told you (in fact, I probably have already).

Nothing, the mind is immaterial.

In that case you're contradicting yourself (I'm tempted to say: again). If you cannot prove it in the sense of presenting a hypothesis that can be tested, then no proof is possible and once again you're using the words like "evidence" and "proof" where they don't belong. Just like you're god argument.

- Prove that I have a mind.
- What kind of proof would satisfy you?
- None.

Cmon, this is nonsense, you know that. Stop playing these games.

Reasoning is not evidence. And lack of proof for something that cannot be proved is an irrational claim.

 

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[Martin]

If you ask me what mankind's greatest flaw is, I will abruptly tell you it is his ego.
Atheists with their overinflated ego refuse to accept to be servants for anyone, that anything is higher than them, they have deluded themselves with this notion of equality. I accept that we are nothing, we are weak, and we are very limited in every possible aspect. I believe that I am being the realist here.

You just happen to restate the Christian doctrine, how surprising

What's wrong with having an ego? Am I doing anyone harm?

 

[Raz]

Why don't you ask a Christian about how he feels about the presence of God in him rather than what an an atheist thinks the Christian feels?

If you ask me what mankind's greatest flaw is, I will abruptly tell you it is his ego.
Atheists with their overinflated ego refuse to accept to be servants for anyone, that anything is higher than them, they have deluded themselves with this notion of equality. I accept that we are nothing, we are weak, and we are very limited in every possible aspect. I believe that I am being the realist here.

I accept i`m weak, at least my body is. I believe in universe, i believe that every object big or small has an effect on me, I believe that there are a lot of forces that influence my life, but none of them are of Inteligent design. Why do you need to imagine someone higher than you in order to live fullfiling lives?

I had tons of discussions with my friend who I consider deeply under influence of "god". The reason I HAD those discusions is that there is no point in discussing it, he simply isnt a reasonable man, because he believes in god and anything anyone would say against it is a lie, no matter what. You know why? Because he knows that god exists. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that if a theist would come up with valid not an imanigary proof or some sort of evidence, theist would believe, but the problem there isnt any. And no matter what atheis wouls say to theist, he would deny anything, just because he knows the god exists. Thats my expiriense with Christians

 

[rounder]

They can be shown scientifically. But you wouldn't believe me if I told you (in fact, I probably have already).

No, you haven't. I'm sorry to say, I'm a bit skeptical you ever will.

In that case you're contradicting yourself (I'm tempted to say: again). If you cannot prove it in the sense of presenting a hypothesis that can be tested, then no proof is possible and once again you're using the words like "evidence" and "proof" where they don't belong. Just like you're god argument.

- Prove that I have a mind.
- What kind of proof would satisfy you?
- None.

Cmon, this is nonsense, you know that. Stop playing these games.

Reasoning is not evidence. And lack of proof for something that cannot be proved is an irrational claim.

- Prove that there is God
- What kind of proof would satisfy you?
- None.

Cmon, this is nonsense, you know that. Stop playing these games.

Precisely how it is ridiculous for you to actually prove to me the existence of your mind through scientific evidence, it is likewise ridiculous for me to prove the existence of God through scientific evidence.

Yes, I know it sounds unreasonable but the comparison is very compatible. We cannot scientifically prove immaterial things, so your request for me to prove the existence of God through scientific evidence is absurd.

In the same way that you feel that it is nonesense to try and prove the existence of other minds, believers that have unmistakingly experienced God will feel very much the same.

You just happen to restate the Christian doctrine, how surprising

What's wrong with having an ego? Am I doing anyone harm?

No one but yourself buddy. The most influential book for me was a book called, "intelligence" by Osho, an Indian Taoist. If you ever happen to read that book, you will understand how damaging an ego is to oneself.

I accept i`m weak, at least my body is. I believe in universe, i believe that every object big or small has an effect on me, I believe that there are a lot of forces that influence my life, but none of them are of Inteligent design. Why do you need to imagine someone higher than you in order to live fullfiling lives?

I don't need to imagine anything, God is not something I created to get on with life. To me, He is an undeniable part of reality.

I had tons of discussions with my friend who I consider deeply under influence of "god". The reason I HAD those discusions is that there is no point in discussing it, he simply isnt a reasonable man, because he believes in god and anything anyone would say against it is a lie, no matter what. You know why? Because he knows that god exists. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that if a theist would come up with valid not an imanigary proof or some sort of evidence, theist would believe, but the problem there isnt any. And no matter what atheis wouls say to theist, he would deny anything, just because he knows the god exists. Thats my expiriense with Christians

Look, I'm not an irrational person, I understand that non-believers would want substantial evidence before they can believe it, but frankly I find it ridiculous that atheists claim they know there isn't a God. It's really mind-boggling how anyone can make such a statement, much less a rational person as atheists claim to be.

Secondly, it's unfortunate that your interactions with Christians has occured in such nature. Not all theists are unreasonable, many theists are intellectual and have very strong reasons for their belief. Perhaps blind faith is for the simple-minded like your friend.

Personally, I wouldn't so strongly believe in God if I did not have any good reasons. I would have no reason to.

 

[*aca*]

Funny thing is, it's all about beliefs (JeveRev proves that).

Evidence doesn't matter, reason doesn't matter. You believe and that's it, reality has to fit god in it.

If there was evidence for god existence, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to believe. But then faith wouldn't make any sense no?

Not that it makes much sense now.....

 

[Martin]

No, you haven't. I'm sorry to say, I'm a bit skeptical you ever will.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "shown". Anyway, to me proving that a mind exists is very simple. First of all, you have to know what you want to prove. The counterpoint to an organism with a mind would be an organism without a mind, yes? Ie. a robot, an automaton, a physical organism without intelligence. There's a very simple tests for this that computer scientists invented decades ago, called the Turing Test. It works like this. You, as the examiner, sits down at a computer. You start chatting with this thing that you're not sure whether it's a human or a machine. If it's a human, the assumption is, you'll be able to tell. A human exhibits emotion, understanding, awareness of his environment etc. So what question do you ask this "contender" to find out if it's a human (or more precisely, if it exhibits the same intelligence as a human)? You could ask it questions that require reasoning ability. Like math or logic puzzles. Or test language skills.

- Prove that there is God
- What kind of proof would satisfy you?
- None.

Cmon, this is nonsense, you know that. Stop playing these games.

That's because you said along the way that god cannot be proven. That's not an assumption I made at the beginning, I'm playing by your rules here. And you said you believe in the Christian god, which is just confusing because he's full of contradictions. I'm "happy" to discuss a supernatural god because I don't have to do anything to dismiss him. No evidence necessary because no evidence could possibly detect him.

Precisely how it is ridiculous for you to actually prove to me the existence of your mind through scientific evidence, it is likewise ridiculous for me to prove the existence of God through scientific evidence.

If you start out with the assumption that the mind is immaterial, then you prevent it from being proven to exist. Why you would make that assumption I don't know. I have no problem thinking of my mind as a big bag of particles that interact in interesting ways. Physically of course, that is precisely what the brain consists of. Scientists have poked around in there and found just that.

Yes, I know it sounds unreasonable but the comparison is very compatible. We cannot scientifically prove immaterial things, so your request for me to prove the existence of God through scientific evidence is absurd.

Which reduces it to a metaphysical discussion which frankly I welcome.

No one but yourself buddy. The most influential book for me was a book called, "intelligence" by Osho, an Indian Taoist. If you ever happen to read that book, you will understand how damaging an ego is to oneself.

Well, I probably won't. So I guess I'll never know.

I don't need to imagine anything, God is not something I created to get on with life. To me, He is an undeniable part of reality.

I don't think you invented him. I think someone suggested him to you and you said okay.

Look, I'm not an irrational person, I understand that non-believers would want substantial evidence before they can believe it, but frankly I find it ridiculous that atheists claim they know there isn't a God. It's really mind-boggling how anyone can make such a statement, much less a rational person as atheists claim to be.

From the position of a man of faith, I can understand how to you it would be the height of arrogance and presumption. However, to produce such a reaction you have to be a believer to begin with.

Secondly, it's unfortunate that your interactions with Christians has occured in such nature. Not all theists are unreasonable, many theists are intellectual and have very strong reasons for their belief. Perhaps blind faith is for the simple-minded like your friend. .

Actually, you don't know anything about my interactions with Christians. They have been pretty much exclusively positive and warm. It's not Christian people I have something against, it's irrational belief.

 

[Stephan]

Martin you study religion in uni or smt?

 

[Martin]

Martin you study religion in uni or smt?

No, just a personal interest. Lifelong interest, actually.

 

[*aca*]

funny thing is, my 9 years old daughter has more evidence for existence of tooth fairy than there is evidence for three-omni god of Christianity.

 

[Raz]

He is not irrational too, he has all the proof and evidence, the same as you have, you just have to believe for them to be real.

As history progresses discoveries are made, we see that we are a mere coincidence, piece of dead stars dust, a lucky poker hand if you will, with no preinstalled purpose.

Anyway i see that we wont go far here, i will just observe this topic.

I wish the best life you can have, be it atheist or theist

 

[*aca*]

Maybe I shouldn't have said "shown". Anyway, to me proving that a mind exists is very simple. First of all, you have to know what you want to prove. The counterpoint to an organism with a mind would be an organism without a mind, yes? Ie. a robot, an automaton, a physical organism without intelligence. There's a very simple tests for this that computer scientists invented decades ago, called the Turing Test. It works like this. You, as the examiner, sits down at a computer. You start chatting with this thing that you're not sure whether it's a human or a machine. If it's a human, the assumption is, you'll be able to tell. A human exhibits emotion, understanding, awareness of his environment etc. So what question do you ask this "contender" to find out if it's a human (or more precisely, if it exhibits the same intelligence as a human)? You could ask it questions that require reasoning ability. Like math or logic puzzles. Or test language skills.

hey there is much more than Turing test.

You can test for emotions, even more for particular emotions. You can do an MRI of the brain and even locate in which part of the brain the neurons are firing and if particular feeling/emotion/idea is there or not.

How it works? well, we don't know as yet. We have pretty good idea and several theories, but we do not have definite answer to the question of consciousness - yet

That is the only honest answer one can give to the still to be solved mysteries of life - we dont know.

If you posit a supernatural/immaterial/undetectable/ being and claim it's all his/hers/it's work - you are just killing off a chance to progress. Why bother if a being like that (ie one that we will never get to know) is doing it all?

Luckily for us, we, as species, seek understanding of ourselves & our environment. None can deny our willingness and capability to learn. None.

 

[Martin]

Luckily for us, we, as species, seek understanding of ourselves & our environment. None can deny our willingness and capability to learn. None.

You see, this is your ego talking. Your evil, arrogant ego.

 

[Martin]

You know it's interesting. JuveRev thinks ego is a harmful. I guess he thinks I might be deluding myself with misplaced confidence, and irrational belief is harmful.

But see, I'd rather believe in myself, at least my own existence I can ascertain, and I can be my own boss, than some mystical being noone has ever seen.

 

[rounder]

Maybe I shouldn't have said "shown". Anyway, to me proving that a mind exists is very simple. First of all, you have to know what you want to prove. The counterpoint to an organism with a mind would be an organism without a mind, yes? Ie. a robot, an automaton, a physical organism without intelligence. There's a very simple tests for this that computer scientists invented decades ago, called the Turing Test. It works like this. You, as the examiner, sits down at a computer. You start chatting with this thing that you're not sure whether it's a human or a machine. If it's a human, the assumption is, you'll be able to tell. A human exhibits emotion, understanding, awareness of his environment etc. So what question do you ask this "contender" to find out if it's a human (or more precisely, if it exhibits the same intelligence as a human)? You could ask it questions that require reasoning ability. Like math or logic puzzles. Or test language skills.

Because something or someone exhibits similar behaviour to what your perception of the mind exhibits, this does not mean this 'something' has a mind. It's not very difficult to program something that acts exactly like humans, regardless, even if you witnessed a human right before your eyes acting the way someone with a mind should be acting, you still cannot prove he has a mind.

The only mind you can ever know for sure exists is that of your own, everything else is an assumption.

That's because you said along the way that god cannot be proven. That's not an assumption I made at the beginning, I'm playing by your rules here. And you said you believe in the Christian god, which is just confusing because he's full of contradictions. I'm "happy" to discuss a supernatural god because I don't have to do anything to dismiss him. No evidence necessary because no evidence could possibly detect him.

I said God cannot be scientifically proven. I think we have an abundant amount of proof for his existence, to me, my own eyes are proof of His existence.
You denied that Jesus even existed, you said He was a fictional character. You expect me to take you seriously when talking about the Christian God?

God is no more full of contradictions than a father with his child as I explained yesterday.

If you start out with the assumption that the mind is immaterial, then you prevent it from being proven to exist. Why you would make that assumption I don't know. I have no problem thinking of my mind as a big bag of particles that interact in interesting ways. Physically of course, that is precisely what the brain consists of. Scientists have poked around in there and found just that.

There's a difference between the mind and the brain, I can prove people have brains, all I would need is a butcher's knife and some alcohol, I can't however prove that people have minds.

I don't think you invented him. I think someone suggested him to you and you said okay.

Well done. Although it's a bit more complicated than that.

From the position of a man of faith, I can understand how to you it would be the height of arrogance and presumption. However, to produce such a reaction you have to be a believer to begin with.

I don't imagine a well-informed agnostic would feel very differently. Hence his agnosticism.

Actually, you don't know anything about my interactions with Christians. They have been pretty much exclusively positive and warm. It's not Christian people I have something against, it's irrational belief.

No, I don't. But I wasn't even talking to you
I was talking to that other person.

 

[Martin]

Because something or someone exhibits similar behaviour to what your perception of the mind exhibits, this does not mean this 'something' has a mind. It's not very difficult to program something that acts exactly like humans, regardless, even if you witnessed a human right before your eyes acting the way someone with a mind should be acting, you still cannot prove he has a mind.

That's interesting, because in many decades noone has been able to pass the Turing Test. And it's not because they haven't tried.

even if you witnessed a human right before your eyes acting the way someone with a mind should be acting, you still cannot prove he has a mind.

Sure you can. If the person behaves like a human. And if you examine his physical substance and ascertain that his brain is made of the same stuff that yours is. Then what more proof do you need?

You denied that Jesus even existed, you said He was a fictional character. You expect me to take you seriously when talking about the Christian God?

I honestly don't care about whether or not there was some historical person called Jesus. Not even the Jews or the Muslims think he was son of god, so why on earth would I?

There's a difference between the mind and the brain, I can prove people have brains, all I would need is a butcher's knife and some alcohol, I can't however prove that people have minds.

That's because, yet again, the "mind" does not exist as a physical entity, just like "heat" is an invented word. How exactly is a brain that exhibits behavior indistinguishable from any human and is made of the same particles not a mind?

I don't imagine a well-informed agnostic would feel very differently. Hence his agnosticism.

The only rational conclusion is that god is impossible. Unless you believe in supernatural beings, in which case I say you're not agnostic.

 

[rounder]

You know it's interesting. JuveRev thinks ego is a harmful. I guess he thinks I might be deluding myself with misplaced confidence, and irrational belief is harmful.

But see, I'd rather believe in myself, at least my own existence I can ascertain, and I can be my own boss, than some mystical being noone has ever seen.

It's amazing what a few good hollywood movies can do to a man.

I can assure you Martin, it's not you at all that feels this way. In fact, you haven't a single originally creative and personal feeling within your brain. Western civilization is the entire and only reason you feel this need and will for independance.

To put it simply, in the west, people who believe they are the greatest and rise above everyone and indeed, make themselves their own boss are the very people that are looked upon with the utmost admiration and awe.

While in the east, particularly the far east, the man who elimates his self pride, selfish ego, and ambition is the one that is looked upon with such awe and admiration.

I don't find what I said interesting as you pointed out. What I find interesting is how people, very much like you, are so confidently able to delude themselves into thinking that the whole " I am ambitious and will never be a servant" is actually their own when it is painfully obvious that it is merely a product of culture. :wink:

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

It's amazing what a few good hollywood movies can do to a man.

I can assure you Martin, it's not you at all that feels this way. In fact, you haven't a single originally creative and personal feeling within your brain. Western civilization is the entire and only reason you feel this need and will for independance.

To put it simply, in the west, people who believe they are the greatest and rise above everyone and indeed, make themselves their own boss are the very people that are looked upon with the utmost admiration and awe.

While in the east, particularly the far east, the man who elimates his self pride, selfish ego, and ambition is the one that is looked upon with such awe and admiration.

I don't find what I said interesting as you pointed out. What I find interesting is how people, very much like you, are so confidently able to delude themselves into thinking that the whole " I am ambitious and will never be a servant" is actually their own when it is painfully obvious that it is merely a product of culture. :wink:

Well I guess if Martin was Chinese that might fuckin' mean something then wouldn't it?

 

[Martin]

Western civilization is the entire and only reason you feel this need and will for independance.

This truly is your greatest moment.

While in the east, particularly the far east, the man who elimates his self pride, selfish ego, and ambition is the one that is looked upon with such awe and admiration.

Great, I'll stop trying to learn anything and do anything. And I'll grab a paper cup and go begging for change on the street.

What I find interesting is how people, very much like you, are so confidently able to delude themselves into thinking that the whole " I am ambitious and will never be a servant" is actually their own when it is painfully obvious that it is merely a product of culture. :wink:

So? Who says everything you do in life has to be your own invention? Ever heard the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants"? If I didn't base my knowledge on what others have discovered before me going back thousands of years I wouldn't last 2 seconds in this world.

This rationale of yours is the same thing as some football player would say "I'm never gonna do a trick than any other player has done before me". Or a writer saying "I'm never gonna use any idea anyone has ever used before me".

 

[rounder]

That's interesting, because in many decades noone has been able to pass the Turing Test. And it's not because they haven't tried.

Sure you can. If the person behaves like a human. And if you examine his physical substance and ascertain that his brain is made of the same stuff that yours is. Then what more proof do you need?

I honestly don't care about whether or not there was some historical person called Jesus. Not even the Jews or the Muslims think he was son of god, so why on earth would I?

That's because, yet again, the "mind" does not exist as a physical entity, just like "heat" is an invented word. How exactly is a brain that exhibits behavior indistinguishable from any human and is made of the same particles not a mind?

The only rational conclusion is that god is impossible. Unless you believe in supernatural beings, in which case I say you're not agnostic.

On the mind.

Clearly, we have different perceptions of what a mind is. To me, it's something very personal, meaning I know I exist because I am thinking, feeling, predicting, hurting, rejoicing, I absolutely KNOW I have a mind. However, I don't know that the people around me are the same.

Enough about that.

You still didn't answer my question on how you can scientifically prove something is beautiful.

Well, one reason is that the resurrection of Jesus was a historical fact. And if you were to believe what Jews and Muslims have to say, then you aren't an atheist, are you?

The only rational conclusion is atheism? Nope.

 

[rounder]

This truly is your greatest moment.

Okay.

Great, I'll stop trying to learn anything and do anything. And I'll grab a paper cup and go begging for change on the street.

No, just let go of the " I want to be my own boss and no one will ever tell me what to do" notion, it's ridiculous and quite childish.

So? Who says everything you do in life has to be your own invention? Ever heard the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants"? If I didn't base my knowledge on what others have discovered before me going back thousands of years I wouldn't last 2 seconds in this world.

That's not what I meant. If you were born somewhere in the far east, you would be a lot more humble. Since you aren't and you are exposed to Hollywood movies that glorify independance and power, then it is quite natural to be this way. My point is, spare us the speech of how you embody pride and all that. It's not you speaking.

This rationale of yours is the same thing as some football player would say "I'm never gonna do a trick than any other player has done before me". Or a writer saying "I'm never gonna use any idea anyone has ever used before me".

see above..