It was fair but it wasn't fair that just Juve got relegated and Milan were allowed to play CL.But that's past I guess,let's look forward
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Was Juve's relegation fair? (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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Thats irrelevant, since they cite their claims. Court documents weigh more than anything the media has printed.
Not to mention affiliation was never a problem when an Inter paper illegally printed manipulated transcripts, or when an Inter shareholder/former board member/Moratti friend went out of his way to make sure we were relegated.
How's that for an affiliation? However, a bunch of Juventus fans who wrote a book, with all their claims backed up by fact, is somehow a conflict of interest which takes away from their legitimacy? Classic.
Juve Red, how was it fair? Show me where in the rulebook it states that relegation, 2 titles stripped and a pts penalty was legal? If u manage to find that, how is it logically possible for teams who committed worse offenses to stay in serie a, while were sent to serie b?
Thats right, its bullshit, and thats y I, along with a many others will never put it behind us. We could win every title imaginable for the next 5 years but that doesn't change the fact we were made a scapegoat for an Italian problem. Our image is forever tainted, an image our players worked very hard to build.
Not to mention affiliation was never a problem when an Inter paper illegally printed manipulated transcripts, or when an Inter shareholder/former board member/Moratti friend went out of his way to make sure we were relegated.
How's that for an affiliation? However, a bunch of Juventus fans who wrote a book, with all their claims backed up by fact, is somehow a conflict of interest which takes away from their legitimacy? Classic.
Juve Red, how was it fair? Show me where in the rulebook it states that relegation, 2 titles stripped and a pts penalty was legal? If u manage to find that, how is it logically possible for teams who committed worse offenses to stay in serie a, while were sent to serie b?
Thats right, its bullshit, and thats y I, along with a many others will never put it behind us. We could win every title imaginable for the next 5 years but that doesn't change the fact we were made a scapegoat for an Italian problem. Our image is forever tainted, an image our players worked very hard to build.
Yea, like Enron had anything to do with that. Since he wasn't even alive. If Juve fans could fight and not pussy out, they might be alive.
Bayern are better than Juve, I will disgust you as much as I want, meathead.
Ummmm, humans are animals, meathead. But even lower forms of animals, I would agree with you, I just consume and don't give back. Things like bees and worms and cows are much more useful than any of us are.
But you didn't think that through did you? hat is because you are the meathead.
Bayern are better than Juve, I will disgust you as much as I want, meathead.
Ummmm, humans are animals, meathead. But even lower forms of animals, I would agree with you, I just consume and don't give back. Things like bees and worms and cows are much more useful than any of us are.
But you didn't think that through did you? hat is because you are the meathead.
I’ve never been so disappointed. I read through this thread and am sorry I did. I fully expect the “Moggi was a cheater” attitude from Interisti but for Juventini to think it after a year and a half of revelations is a disgrace. I’m not saying that Juve fans should have outright denied everything just because they are fans but to have accepted such an obviously fixed trial without doing any investigating makes me question the depth of your loyalty.
How could you not have questioned anything when a former Inter Director was named Commissioner of the trial (Guido Rossi)? How could you not have asked why Inter wasn’t investigated after president Facchetti was found calling the same Bergamo that Moggi called? How could you not question a sentence for match fixing that sends Juventus to Serie B and then states that no games in the 2004-2005 Season were fixed? How could you accept that Moggi corrupted referees when all referees (except De Santis for a game that had nothing to do with Juve) were absolved of any wrong doing?
Those of you who still believe Juventus were caught cheating have a lot of reading to do. You can all start here and I will continue to flood this thread with evidence until everyone wakes up. Those who want more evidence (legal documents and actual wiretaps) can email me at [email protected] and those who want to debate should know that I have a year and a half of research under my belt.
By the way, the article posted here regarding Moggi’s by Jason Burke should be slammed for slander and defamation of character since NO EVIDENCE can be found in it. Anyone can write an article…basing it on facts is what will make it credible.
Start reading:
This story was nearly 10 years in the making and has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with money, power, and politics. I'm involved in various activities revolving around Calciopoli and have become somewhat of an expert in the topic. I'm fluent in Italian and as a result have been able to go through archives of newspaper articles, interviews, and books (written by lawyers). The most evidence you will get however is in reading the declarations and sentences left by the judges that presided over the trials and appeals. Most Juventus and Anti-Juventus fans (outside of Italy) have no idea that no shred of evidence existed linking Moggi and company to a single fixed game. Most people are unaware of the judge's declaration that "no game was fixed and referee selections were legitimate" Cesare Ruperto CAF judge. So why the punishments? Equally puzzling, why did Milan get a slap on the wrist after Meani threatened a linesman over the phone "when Milan is on the field keep your flag down unless the ball is on the opposite side of the field otherwise we'll chop your head off" Leonardo Meani. Why was an Inter investor and former Inter employee allowed to control the trial? This man Guido Rossi not only omitted evidence that would have cleared Juventus but discarded evidence that would have condemned his former employers (Inter). Do people know that there was phone tap evidence of Udinese and Milan organizing a tie? Do people know that there was phone tap evidence of Galliani and Collina meeting personally after hours at Meani's restaurant? Do people know the same man that sponsors Italian soccer through his ownership of TIM Mobile managed to intercept the phone calls that would eventually be used against Juventus? Do they know that he gave them to his partner (Moratti) illegally through a police officer who sanctioned the intercepts and then ordered that they be altered or destroyed in cases where Inter were incriminated? Eventually a security employee at Telecom Italia confessed to the shady wire taps and the police officer killed himself on July 21st 2006 (his name was Adamo Bove). Does anyone know that the wire taps were never listened to in court despite Juventus defense requesting it? When Juventus requested to use video evidence it was denied too. People are in the dark on this case because it is convenient to many to believe that their team was losing because someone else was cheating...others are unwillingly in the dark because evidence is hard to find and hard to understand (unless you are fluent in Italian). As a result I have been strongly considering writing a book in English regarding the case (now known in Italy as Farsopoli). I am questioning the level of public interest however. It would take months to put together and I'd hate to do it for nothing. For now though feel free to ask me whatever you want and I'll do what I can to shed light on the situation. I'm more than happy to answer your questions. For now I'd suggest reading this article which helps understand why the media painted such an ugly picture of Juventus. http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=299625 Let me know what you think. If you get anything out of this article it should be the web of power Juve were up against. Here are some names in powerful positions just to give you an idea:
- FIGC President (at the time): Franco Carraro (ex-Milan President and co owner of Lazio/Roma through his control of Capitalia Credit Bank)
- La Lega Calcio President: Adriano Galliani (Milan Vie President)
- Italian Referees Association (AIA) President: Tulio Lanese good friend and political affiliate of Silvio Berlusconi and known Milanista (known on wire taps as Tulio “miLanese”)
- FIGC Referee Designers: Bergamo and Pairetto underlings of Carraro, Lanese, and Galliani as evidenced by the wire taps…now Collina after secretly meeting with Galliani assumed that role
- Prime Minister (at the time): Silvio Berlusconi who controls several TV stations, magazines, and newspapers, as well as controlling one of Italy’s biggest political parties (Forza Italia). Through his TV station ownership Berlusconi controls all Soccer TV rights (therefore ad revenue) for all teams competing in Serie A and B (this would later be used as blackmail to keep Milan in the Champions League).
- Italian Soccer Sponsor: Tronchetti Provera (massive Inter shareholder and personal friend of Moratti) owns Telecom Italia and its sister company TIM Mobile and which not only provided Inter owner Moratti with phone intercepts but also sponsors all soccer competition in Italy (Serie A TIM, Coppa Italia TIM, Supercoppa Italiana TIM)…also owns Pirelli Tires (Inter primary sponsor) and also owns LA7 (major Italian TV Station)
- Federcalcio (FIGC Investigations) President: Borelli, a political associate of Berlusconi and discovered having meetings behind closed doors with Galliani throughout the trial
- Federcalcio Commissioner: Guido Rossi, major Inter shareholder and former Inter director also sat on Telecom Italia’s board of directors
- President of la Gazzetta dello Sport: Carlo Bore also acting as Vice President of Inter
- Editor and Chief of la Gazzetta dello Sport: Verdelli and Cannavo’ both Inter shareholders
- Vice President of Federcalcio: Massimo Moratti Inter Owner
- Current Commissioner of the Federcalcio Investigating Inter for Accounting Fraud: Stefanini acting lawyer for La Spezia soccer team (40% of which is owned by Moratti)
So...still sound like a "Moggi controlled system"?
Finally (and believe me there is still WAY more to the story) I want to inform you of what our team was actually accused of. The accusation of match fixing revolved around three games. This is key to the case and all but proves how ridiculous it was.
Game 1: Lecce-Parma – yes you read right. The game has nothing at all to do with Juventus but this game allowed Fiorentina to survive Serie A in 2005. The ccusation is that the Moggi controlled referee De Santis fixed the match at the request of Moggi after Della Valle (Fiorentina owner) asked Moggi for help. Moggi actually can’t stand De Santis and De Santis can’t stand Juventus. It was De Santis (admitted Interista) that disallowed a legitimate Juventus goal in the Italian Supercup costing Juve the trophy and handing it to Inter wrongfully. All intercepted phone calls regarding this game showed Della Valle contacting Bergamo (referee designer) and Carraro (FIGC president) and Mazzei (FIGC Vice President) directly with no mention of Luciano Moggi.
Game 2: Juventus-Udinese – the actual “fixed” game was Udinese-Bologna the week before. The idea was for the Moggi controlled referee to give yellow cards to Udinese players that were already carrying yellow cards so that they couldn’t play against Juventus. The players handed yellow cards that day were Pinzi and Di Michele. In actual fact neither was carrying yellows and both were on the field against Juventus the following match day.
Game 3: Juventus-Sampdoria – here the accusation was that the Moggi controlled referee allowed an offside goal to stand granting Juventus a 1-0 win over Sampdoria. The game actually ended 0-1 for Sampdoria with Aimo Diana scoring an offside goal. The result can be found on espn.com still today.
To close it should be noted that both Cesare Ruperto (CAF judge) and Piero Sandulli (Federal Court judge) declared that no system of pre-planned yellow cards existed and that no game was fixed by referees. It was also expressed that referee designations occurred throughout the season regularly. In other words the season was legit. The phone calls showed unsportsmanlike conduct by all parties but this is an Article 1 offense punishable by a 1 to 3 point deduction and a possible fine.
Finally the CAF sentence declared that “though no Article 6 offense can be found in the investigation, the overall conduct of Moggi and Giraudo (the latter heard on 3-5 phone calls mostly about nothing) created an unsportsmanlike environment favorable to Juventus in the standings AS EVIDENED BY THEIR 1ST PLACE FINISH IN THE SEASON IN QUESTION”. This is like saying that driving is proof of being a car thief. In the end the sentence tried to lead us to believe that Juventus obtained an unfair advantage in the standings without conditioning referees or fixing a single game…mysterious no?
Feel free to ask me anymore questions. By the way...there isn't a single recorded conversation between Moggi and a referee or linesmen with one exception; Paparesta called Moggi to apologize after a mistake of his cost Juventus a game against Reggina. Moggi said one line "I have nothing to say to you" and hung up.
I enjoy shedding light on these matters so feel free to share my points with others and ask me whatever you like.
FORZA JUVE!
How could you not have questioned anything when a former Inter Director was named Commissioner of the trial (Guido Rossi)? How could you not have asked why Inter wasn’t investigated after president Facchetti was found calling the same Bergamo that Moggi called? How could you not question a sentence for match fixing that sends Juventus to Serie B and then states that no games in the 2004-2005 Season were fixed? How could you accept that Moggi corrupted referees when all referees (except De Santis for a game that had nothing to do with Juve) were absolved of any wrong doing?
Those of you who still believe Juventus were caught cheating have a lot of reading to do. You can all start here and I will continue to flood this thread with evidence until everyone wakes up. Those who want more evidence (legal documents and actual wiretaps) can email me at [email protected] and those who want to debate should know that I have a year and a half of research under my belt.
By the way, the article posted here regarding Moggi’s by Jason Burke should be slammed for slander and defamation of character since NO EVIDENCE can be found in it. Anyone can write an article…basing it on facts is what will make it credible.
Start reading:
This story was nearly 10 years in the making and has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with money, power, and politics. I'm involved in various activities revolving around Calciopoli and have become somewhat of an expert in the topic. I'm fluent in Italian and as a result have been able to go through archives of newspaper articles, interviews, and books (written by lawyers). The most evidence you will get however is in reading the declarations and sentences left by the judges that presided over the trials and appeals. Most Juventus and Anti-Juventus fans (outside of Italy) have no idea that no shred of evidence existed linking Moggi and company to a single fixed game. Most people are unaware of the judge's declaration that "no game was fixed and referee selections were legitimate" Cesare Ruperto CAF judge. So why the punishments? Equally puzzling, why did Milan get a slap on the wrist after Meani threatened a linesman over the phone "when Milan is on the field keep your flag down unless the ball is on the opposite side of the field otherwise we'll chop your head off" Leonardo Meani. Why was an Inter investor and former Inter employee allowed to control the trial? This man Guido Rossi not only omitted evidence that would have cleared Juventus but discarded evidence that would have condemned his former employers (Inter). Do people know that there was phone tap evidence of Udinese and Milan organizing a tie? Do people know that there was phone tap evidence of Galliani and Collina meeting personally after hours at Meani's restaurant? Do people know the same man that sponsors Italian soccer through his ownership of TIM Mobile managed to intercept the phone calls that would eventually be used against Juventus? Do they know that he gave them to his partner (Moratti) illegally through a police officer who sanctioned the intercepts and then ordered that they be altered or destroyed in cases where Inter were incriminated? Eventually a security employee at Telecom Italia confessed to the shady wire taps and the police officer killed himself on July 21st 2006 (his name was Adamo Bove). Does anyone know that the wire taps were never listened to in court despite Juventus defense requesting it? When Juventus requested to use video evidence it was denied too. People are in the dark on this case because it is convenient to many to believe that their team was losing because someone else was cheating...others are unwillingly in the dark because evidence is hard to find and hard to understand (unless you are fluent in Italian). As a result I have been strongly considering writing a book in English regarding the case (now known in Italy as Farsopoli). I am questioning the level of public interest however. It would take months to put together and I'd hate to do it for nothing. For now though feel free to ask me whatever you want and I'll do what I can to shed light on the situation. I'm more than happy to answer your questions. For now I'd suggest reading this article which helps understand why the media painted such an ugly picture of Juventus. http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=299625 Let me know what you think. If you get anything out of this article it should be the web of power Juve were up against. Here are some names in powerful positions just to give you an idea:
- FIGC President (at the time): Franco Carraro (ex-Milan President and co owner of Lazio/Roma through his control of Capitalia Credit Bank)
- La Lega Calcio President: Adriano Galliani (Milan Vie President)
- Italian Referees Association (AIA) President: Tulio Lanese good friend and political affiliate of Silvio Berlusconi and known Milanista (known on wire taps as Tulio “miLanese”)
- FIGC Referee Designers: Bergamo and Pairetto underlings of Carraro, Lanese, and Galliani as evidenced by the wire taps…now Collina after secretly meeting with Galliani assumed that role
- Prime Minister (at the time): Silvio Berlusconi who controls several TV stations, magazines, and newspapers, as well as controlling one of Italy’s biggest political parties (Forza Italia). Through his TV station ownership Berlusconi controls all Soccer TV rights (therefore ad revenue) for all teams competing in Serie A and B (this would later be used as blackmail to keep Milan in the Champions League).
- Italian Soccer Sponsor: Tronchetti Provera (massive Inter shareholder and personal friend of Moratti) owns Telecom Italia and its sister company TIM Mobile and which not only provided Inter owner Moratti with phone intercepts but also sponsors all soccer competition in Italy (Serie A TIM, Coppa Italia TIM, Supercoppa Italiana TIM)…also owns Pirelli Tires (Inter primary sponsor) and also owns LA7 (major Italian TV Station)
- Federcalcio (FIGC Investigations) President: Borelli, a political associate of Berlusconi and discovered having meetings behind closed doors with Galliani throughout the trial
- Federcalcio Commissioner: Guido Rossi, major Inter shareholder and former Inter director also sat on Telecom Italia’s board of directors
- President of la Gazzetta dello Sport: Carlo Bore also acting as Vice President of Inter
- Editor and Chief of la Gazzetta dello Sport: Verdelli and Cannavo’ both Inter shareholders
- Vice President of Federcalcio: Massimo Moratti Inter Owner
- Current Commissioner of the Federcalcio Investigating Inter for Accounting Fraud: Stefanini acting lawyer for La Spezia soccer team (40% of which is owned by Moratti)
So...still sound like a "Moggi controlled system"?
Finally (and believe me there is still WAY more to the story) I want to inform you of what our team was actually accused of. The accusation of match fixing revolved around three games. This is key to the case and all but proves how ridiculous it was.
Game 1: Lecce-Parma – yes you read right. The game has nothing at all to do with Juventus but this game allowed Fiorentina to survive Serie A in 2005. The ccusation is that the Moggi controlled referee De Santis fixed the match at the request of Moggi after Della Valle (Fiorentina owner) asked Moggi for help. Moggi actually can’t stand De Santis and De Santis can’t stand Juventus. It was De Santis (admitted Interista) that disallowed a legitimate Juventus goal in the Italian Supercup costing Juve the trophy and handing it to Inter wrongfully. All intercepted phone calls regarding this game showed Della Valle contacting Bergamo (referee designer) and Carraro (FIGC president) and Mazzei (FIGC Vice President) directly with no mention of Luciano Moggi.
Game 2: Juventus-Udinese – the actual “fixed” game was Udinese-Bologna the week before. The idea was for the Moggi controlled referee to give yellow cards to Udinese players that were already carrying yellow cards so that they couldn’t play against Juventus. The players handed yellow cards that day were Pinzi and Di Michele. In actual fact neither was carrying yellows and both were on the field against Juventus the following match day.
Game 3: Juventus-Sampdoria – here the accusation was that the Moggi controlled referee allowed an offside goal to stand granting Juventus a 1-0 win over Sampdoria. The game actually ended 0-1 for Sampdoria with Aimo Diana scoring an offside goal. The result can be found on espn.com still today.
To close it should be noted that both Cesare Ruperto (CAF judge) and Piero Sandulli (Federal Court judge) declared that no system of pre-planned yellow cards existed and that no game was fixed by referees. It was also expressed that referee designations occurred throughout the season regularly. In other words the season was legit. The phone calls showed unsportsmanlike conduct by all parties but this is an Article 1 offense punishable by a 1 to 3 point deduction and a possible fine.
Finally the CAF sentence declared that “though no Article 6 offense can be found in the investigation, the overall conduct of Moggi and Giraudo (the latter heard on 3-5 phone calls mostly about nothing) created an unsportsmanlike environment favorable to Juventus in the standings AS EVIDENED BY THEIR 1ST PLACE FINISH IN THE SEASON IN QUESTION”. This is like saying that driving is proof of being a car thief. In the end the sentence tried to lead us to believe that Juventus obtained an unfair advantage in the standings without conditioning referees or fixing a single game…mysterious no?
Feel free to ask me anymore questions. By the way...there isn't a single recorded conversation between Moggi and a referee or linesmen with one exception; Paparesta called Moggi to apologize after a mistake of his cost Juventus a game against Reggina. Moggi said one line "I have nothing to say to you" and hung up.
I enjoy shedding light on these matters so feel free to share my points with others and ask me whatever you like.
FORZA JUVE!
