WAHAHAHA!! Aliens!!!! (9 Viewers)

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#41
Then prove your God exists, putting this "demon" of science to rest.
Islam doesn't make a demon of science, the first word God sent to Muhammad was "Read"

the matter of his existence is a matter of belief, to have it or just not to, scientific facts that can't be argued about are something like Water is composed of 2H and an O, if Quran said otherwise I'll declare myself atheist
but so far I haven't seen a "fully proven" undoubtable scentific fact (not theory) that opposed what I have in the book I believe in
 

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
#43
Not all religions deny evolution, at least mine doesn't.

The Qur'an does mention life on other planets...and it did it 1400+ years ago :)
How does that work, Ze? Don't tell me it's about intelligent design, because there are plenty examples out there that prove there can be no such thing.

You know what Hobbes once said? The only thing that stands in the way of peace and tranquillity is the belief in an objective moral standard.
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,327
#44
Yeah, that is scientific facts I agree with, but then again who created proteins?
and it brings us back to evolution the unfully proven theory, where I choose to believe that God created everything the way it is, proteins, planets and humans
or even aliens if they existed
and here's where faith and belief comes in
Ok this has to be put to rest once and for all.


Hypothesis - something completely unproven and untested on observable phenomena

Theory - Something with significant evidence that has been test empirically on observable phenomena

The Sun rising in the sky is a THEORY, because there is no empirical way to comprehensively say that sun will rise tomorrow, merely that is has risen and the mathematics that apply to other things such a earth orbit etc say it's 99% sure.

I can prove that 1+1=2 or that A+B+C = 180 degrees in a triangle but I can't prove empirically that Plate Tectonics is fact etc etc
Of all theories that aren't related to calculation or empirically testable models, the Theory of Evolution has the most evidentiary samples.

Darwin was right, Creationists are Wrong. You call bring it back to believing that the Abrahamic God created proteins w/e and we grew from that but the fact is in both the old testament and new testament specifically disagree with this. However, the Quran does have some very interesting sections, I like this one:

"Allah Almighty (God) created every animal from water. Among living objects there are some which crawl on their bellies, some walk on two legs and some on four".

First living thing was algae in plant kingdom then animal kingdom started. Quran makes reference to plant kingdom.


"The status of human life has been achieved after successfully passing through the steps of animal life".
Correct-ish :agree:

"He caused you to grow from earth"

"We fashioned you from soil."

"Man's creation was initiated from inorganic matter which before you, was lying lifeless in the form of clay".


Bullshit.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
#45
Islam doesn't make a demon of science, the first word God sent to Muhammad was "Read"

the matter of his existence is a matter of belief, to have it or just not to, scientific facts that can't be argued about are something like Water is composed of 2H and an O, if Quran said otherwise I'll declare myself atheist
but so far I haven't seen a "fully proven" undoubtable scentific fact (not theory) that opposed what I have in the book I believe in
According to the Quran the Sun has a resting place. Allah commands the Sun to rise every day. Clearly science has proved this theory wrong. Another thing is that the Quran says mountains were designed to prevent earthquakes, while we now know very well how exactly mountains come to exist.

There are a lot of theories in the Quran that have been proven wrong by science. If all these theories are proven wrong, we might as well consider the whole damn thing a fallacy as, contrary to what some said in reaction to my first post, the goal of the Quran is indeed to explain the universe.

So there you go.
 

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#47
Ok this has to be put to rest once and for all.


Hypothesis - something completely unproven and untested on observable phenomena

Theory - Something with significant evidence that has been test empirically on observable phenomena

The Sun rising in the sky is a THEORY, because there is no empirical way to comprehensively say that sun will rise tomorrow, merely that is has risen and the mathematics that apply to other things such a earth orbit etc say it's 99% sure.

I can prove that 1+1=2 or that A+B+C = 180 degrees in a triangle but I can't prove empirically that Plate Tectonics is fact etc etc
Of all theories that aren't related to calculation or empirically testable models, the Theory of Evolution has the most evidentiary samples.
I know the difference between facts, theories and hyphothis, and I didn't call evolution a hyphosis, it is a theory, whether it's 10% or 99% for sure, it still isnt' fully proven and that is a fact
don't get me wrong, my religion isn't causing any narrow mindness, I do enjoy scientific debates and accepting new ideas
it's just that you can never be 100% sure, as the Greek who'd burn whoever opposes the theory that says that the sun orbits the planet, that is narrowmindness, but then it was proven wrong and there are too many examples like that, it's enough for me to believe that no scientific theory is perfect, but in the entire history of humans man thought what he knows in science is facts
the solar system and all astronomy theories are based on physics and the laws of Newton which were proven as theories and became facts, for example through his ways you can tell the weight of Earth or the distance between us and the sun, that is a practical theory than you can apply in your house on much much smaller objects, then they became facts, but evolution is all theoritical until now, and I am not toally against it, neither is Islam
there's a very interesting theory, actually I heard of, from a sheikh in Islam, he says that there is a possibility that God created the universe with all the bacteria and microorganisms and there were no humans created, and then humans who came from this evolution and lived in societies, he chose 2 of them "Adam and Eve" to be in his heaven on Earth, until the end of that story..
that theory satisfies creationism and evolution in a way, and then a religious person might say "but God said clearly that he created Adam", you'd say that he also says that he created us all.
see? Qur'an didn't deny evolution at all
I see how much sense evolution makes, and I believe completely in creationism too, they don't really oppose each other that much if you think about it from a different point of view


"Allah Almighty (God) created every animal from water. Among living objects there are some which crawl on their bellies, some walk on two legs and some on four".

First living thing was algae in plant kingdom then animal kingdom started. Quran makes reference to plant kingdom.


"The status of human life has been achieved after successfully passing through the steps of animal life".
Correct-ish

"He caused you to grow from earth"

"We fashioned you from soil."

"Man's creation was initiated from inorganic matter which before you, was lying lifeless in the form of clay".
Could you mention the verses so I read them in their and my original language?
and I don't understand your comments on each verse specially the BS one tbh, elaborate please.


According to the Quran the Sun has a resting place. Allah commands the Sun to rise every day. Clearly science has proved this theory wrong. Another thing is that the Quran says mountains were designed to prevent earthquakes, while we now know very well how exactly mountains come to exist.


So there you go.
show me the Quran verse that says the sun has a resting place, or that mountains were designed to prevent earthquakes
Quran says about mountains:
078.007
YUSUFALI: And the mountains as pegs
PICKTHAL: And the high hills bulwarks
SHAKIR: And the mountains as projections (thereon)

which means, they stabilize the planet, like pegs

science proved that "God commands the sun everyday" is wrong?
nothing can assure you that it will rise up tomorrow, it's theoritical, in this case why can't you assume that a higher power orders it to rise everyday?
those chemical reactions making the sun what it is started millions of years ago and didn't end yet, I've never seen a longer chemical reaction, this makes me believe that God commands it to rise everyday

check this out:
if you ask anyone with basic knowledge in physics or ignorant completely about the shape of the sun, pretty obvious he'd say spherical, that is what we all see
but:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/oblate_sun.html
Nasa proves it's not exactly spherical 2 years ago, only
see the point? everything even what you see in front of you can be proven wrong, every theory is subjected to change

but Quran says:
081.001
YUSUFALI: When the sun (with its spacious light) is folded up;
PICKTHAL: When the sun is overthrown,
SHAKIR: When the sun is covered,

which means on the judgement day "when the sun becomes spherical" the way it is said in Arabic.

so Quran told you over 1400 years ago that it isn't spherical despite how you see it, and 2 years ago only you could prove it

is that not enough to believe?

There are a lot of theories in the Quran that have been proven wrong by science. If all these theories are proven wrong, we might as well consider the whole damn thing a fallacy as, contrary to what some said in reaction to my first post, the goal of the Quran is indeed to explain the universe.
mention them, I'm willing to go all the way with each of them

what makes you say that is the goal of Quran? the main goal is to show all people the right path peacefully, and it occasionally explains life and scientific things but thats not its main goal
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,327
#48
I know the difference between facts, theories and hyphothis, and I didn't call evolution a hyphosis, it is a theory, whether it's 10% or 99% for sure, it still isnt' fully proven and that is a fact
don't get me wrong, my religion isn't causing any narrow mindness, I do enjoy scientific debates and accepting new ideas
it's just that you can never be 100% sure, as the Greek who'd burn whoever opposes the theory that says that the sun orbits the planet, that is narrowmindness, but then it was proven wrong and there are too many examples like that, it's enough for me to believe that no scientific theory is perfect, but in the entire history of humans man thought what he knows in science is facts
the solar system and all astronomy theories are based on physics and the laws of Newton which were proven as theories and became facts, for example through his ways you can tell the weight of Earth or the distance between us and the sun, that is a practical theory than you can apply in your house on much much smaller objects, then they became facts, but evolution is all theoritical until now, and I am not toally against it, neither is Islam
there's a very interesting theory, actually I heard of, from a sheikh in Islam, he says that there is a possibility that God created the universe with all the bacteria and microorganisms and there were no humans created, and then humans who came from this evolution and lived in societies, he chose 2 of them "Adam and Eve" to be in his heaven on Earth, until the end of that story..
that theory satisfies creationism and evolution in a way, and then a religious person might say "but God said clearly that he created Adam", you'd say that he also says that he created us all.
see? Qur'an didn't deny evolution at all
I see how much sense evolution makes, and I believe completely in creationism too, they don't really oppose each other that much if you think about it from a different point of view


Could you mention the verses so I read them in their and my original language?
and I don't understand your comments on each verse specially the BS one tbh, elaborate please.
l
Firstly, why can't every religious person on the planet be like you? Using a reasoned debate, accepting that if 99% is true your faith can make up the 1% of doubt and not just account for 100% of everything.

With regard to the laws of Physics et al, they also can't be 100% because we haven't tested them on the entirety of the Universe, I'm no sciencey type but I believe that Newtons theories had to be supplemented with Quantum mechanics because they weren't returning the expected results.
Basically what I'm saying is that unless it is empirically tested to be true and will at all times and in all places in the universe then it can't by definition be deemed a 100% universal factual theory/law. It's arrogant to believe that any theories about the universe are inherently true if we haven't observed the entire universe.

Evolution as in, natural selection over long periods of time in a random series of biological/neurological enhancements/reductions is a fact, 100%. That animals do evolve is a fact, that we have a common ancestor and those related queries are more suspect as the fossils haven't yet been found but evolution as an occurence is a fact, the entire theory is unproven but it's core theme has enough evidence to be taken as valid.

Believing that Allah saw to it that the clouds of dust and gas bonded together to create earth, where microbial life slowly emerged and then over millions of years turned gradually into man from apes is just as valid as believing (as I do) that our brains can't comprehend the complexities of the relationship between time and space to the extent that 'somebody had to create it,what was there before' is a moot point.

We can argue all day as to what created the universe if anything but natural selection and evolution is a fact, even we have evolved from Homo georgicus to Home Erectus :lol: Erectus! right through to Homo sapiens which the Quran supports by saying that Allah made men gradually as a process.

The verses should be here
http://www.parvez-video.com/science.asp

What I meant by BS is that those things are patently untrue, we aren't composed of wet clay ;)
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,904
#51
Not you.

I would still love to ask God why he chose the acceleration of Earth's gravity to be 9.8m/s^2 as opposed to, you know, 10m/s^2.

He should have just rounded everything off to make it easy for us, but no, he makes us suffer.
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#53
Never mind that there have been Muslim Nobel Laureates in the field of science, IZ is here to disprove everything :howler:

Andy, so if God was behind all of this he should have rounded everything to an even number....and that's because...? :shifty:

Seven, where did you get that from?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
#54
Never mind that there have been Muslim Nobel Laureates in the field of science, IZ is here to disprove everything :howler:

Andy, so if God was behind all of this he should have rounded everything to an even number....and that's because...? :shifty:

Seven, where did you get that from?
You mean Hobbes or the science in the Quran?

If it's the second: some website. I didn't even check, but I'm sure there are loads of examples. The book was written more than a thousand years ago, it'll contain scientific errors. I don't know how muslims see this, but to say that the Quran is 100% correct scientifically is just stupid. I suppose you could say it wasn't mean to be taken literally.

What's sad though is that Islam used to be the religion of science. And now you have morons within your religion destroying that idea.
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#55
You mean Hobbes or the science in the Quran?

If it's the second: some website. I didn't even check, but I'm sure there are loads of examples. The book was written more than a thousand years ago, it'll contain scientific errors. I don't know how muslims see this, but to say that the Quran is 100% correct scientifically is just stupid. I suppose you could say it wasn't mean to be taken literally.
The science in the Qur'an.

'Some website'? Aren't you studying law? You can't argue like that.

What's sad though is that Islam used to be the religion of science. And now you have morons within your religion destroying that idea.
Couldn't agree more.
 

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#58
Firstly, why can't every religious person on the planet be like you? Using a reasoned debate, accepting that if 99% is true your faith can make up the 1% of doubt and not just account for 100% of everything.
It beats me tbh, because Islam tells us to use our minds and find reasons for everything, not believe blindly
and this means you study things well and learn about them then see the greatness of God's creations
and as long as Muslims lived like that they were the greatest of civilizations, but not today

With regard to the laws of Physics et al, they also can't be 100% because we haven't tested them on the entirety of the Universe, I'm no sciencey type but I believe that Newtons theories had to be supplemented with Quantum mechanics because they weren't returning the expected results.
Basically what I'm saying is that unless it is empirically tested to be true and will at all times and in all places in the universe then it can't by definition be deemed a 100% universal factual theory/law. It's arrogant to believe that any theories about the universe are inherently true if we haven't observed the entire universe.
Of course they can't be all 100%, they're pretty close to accuracy though, I liked Newton's work when I studied physics in highschool, they made much sense to me.
off-topic Q: what are you studying by the way? -assuming you're in college

Evolution as in, natural selection over long periods of time in a random series of biological/neurological enhancements/reductions is a fact, 100%. That animals do evolve is a fact, that we have a common ancestor and those related queries are more suspect as the fossils haven't yet been found but evolution as an occurence is a fact, the entire theory is unproven but it's core theme has enough evidence to be taken as valid.

Believing that Allah saw to it that the clouds of dust and gas bonded together to create earth, where microbial life slowly emerged and then over millions of years turned gradually into man from apes is just as valid as believing (as I do) that our brains can't comprehend the complexities of the relationship between time and space to the extent that 'somebody had to create it,what was there before' is a moot point.

We can argue all day as to what created the universe if anything but natural selection and evolution is a fact, even we have evolved from Homo georgicus to Home Erectus Erectus! right through to Homo sapiens which the Quran supports by saying that Allah made men gradually as a process.
Well I can't really agree that one should choose between logical scientific thinking and believing, I think they complete each other
reminds me of that scene before the end of Clooney's movie "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" when he finally starts to pray before he's killed, and he prays to see his daughters one more time, and when God answers his prayer, he finds a scientific explaination for what happened! pretty funny I found it
you won't get me if you didn't see it yet, but it's worth seeing

God says also in Quran:
035.028
And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.

I highly agree with this part, the more knowledge I gained, the more I believed, not the other way around

What I meant by BS is that those things are patently untrue, we aren't composed of wet clay
I wouldn't really know for sure about that
but perhaps the meaning includes bacteria as the livings among clay or something.
but I can't go any deeper in something I don't know about


Mountains stabilize the planet? Really?
I was only translating the part about mountains function, and it didn't talk about earthquakes
but I didn't study enough geology to talk about mountains' functions, if you did please share it with us


What's sad though is that Islam used to be the religion of science. And now you have morons within your religion destroying that idea.
I don't like your ways of accusing Islam and Quran of ignorance without proofs, but this part is absolutely correct, in the brightest times of the Islamic civilization scientists had their freedom completely, unlike now how some people who took the idea of Islam wrong are in the way of any developement, and the worst part is that they're the ones in front

one of my heroes is Al Khwarizmi, without this great man none of modern sciences would exist, to make it simple we just say "he came up with the Zero", this man was a religious muslim, can anyone say he was stupid for believing in Quran? I don't think so, this is an obvious proof the Islam doesn't stop science or encourage terrorism and violence, it's just the people who misunderstood it then somehow became its defenders
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
#59
I don't like your ways of accusing Islam and Quran of ignorance without proofs, but this part is absolutely correct, in the brightest times of the Islamic civilization scientists had their freedom completely, unlike now how some people who took the idea of Islam wrong are in the way of any developement, and the worst part is that they're the ones in front

one of my heroes is Al Khwarizmi, without this great man none of modern sciences would exist, to make it simple we just say "he came up with the Zero", this man was a religious muslim, can anyone say he was stupid for believing in Quran? I don't think so, this is an obvious proof the Islam doesn't stop science or encourage terrorism and violence, it's just the people who misunderstood it then somehow became its defenders
The problem is that at a certain point the book does limit scientific research if you have to take it literally. I know you believe it wasn't written by Muhammad himself, but to be honest there are several things in there that do imply that the book was written in that timeperiod by someone who was influenced by his peers. You can see traces of what science was back then and there are several theories in the book that have later been proven wrong.

This makes the Quran a historic document and as such it is very prone to scientific error. I think this is the point where I fundamentally disagree with the vast majority of muslims today, who will say that the Quran is 100% correct.
I know you are not going to want to hear this, but I think that's what the true strength of the book was in the beginning: it tried to offer an explanation for certain things and it used a fairly scientific approach in doing so.

This is not an attack on the core ideas of the book or anything, those are ideas that have virtually nothing to do with science.
 

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#60
To IZ:
this is an interesting point I found in Quran that also supports evolution:

002:30
And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know

That's before Adam as he is the Khalif, but if there were never humans before him, then howcome the angels knew what humans would do?
it to me supports the theory that evolution occured and angels saw what's going, then God chose Adam and Eve of the people on Earth to be Khalifs
 

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