UK Politics (7 Viewers)

[Pirlo's Beard]

Uncertainty is not entirely a bad thing considering the way a lot of other EU contries are going, we're certainly going to keep on getting dragged down and then more and more people from said failed economies will come here. And who can blame them. I would too.

At least we have a shot of making our own way in the World and i'm sure we'd be able to find good trade deals outside of Europe. And this is assuming it's worse case scenario and European countries shut us out to be bitter. They could still end up trading with us. It's not like we're the only ones benefiting from trade is it?

 

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[Nicholas]

Farage was right about one thing, this is a one time offer available. This will never come round ever again.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

I'd hate to be sitting here in a couple of decades time in a shit European Union wondering 'what if'

At least if we try it and it fails we can hold out hands up and say we dun goof'd

Although tbf I'll probably end up moving countries eventually. Would try moving to good old 'Straya if the creepy ass bugs over there weren't so big.

 

[Ocelot]

It is extremely interesting to see how perception of the UK-EU relationship differs on the different sides of the canals. I mean I'd definitely say that GB as a country is definitily benefiting more from the EU than vice versa, especially with all the countless favourable exceptions it has negotiated, and that in the past years, UK influence has severely damaged the decision making progress for continental EU.

 

[JuveJay]

I'd hate to be sitting here in a couple of decades time in a shit European Union wondering 'what if'

At least if we try it and it fails we can hold out hands up and say we dun goof'd

I think it might be a little more serious than that if it fails

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

Yeah naturally but I reckon we'd be absolutely fine. Might be some bumps short term but I hardly see us ever failing in the long run. We really don't need to be tied to the EU considering the mess a lot of those countries are in. Last I heard the unemployment rates in places like Greece were shocking. The EU is hardly solving problems.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

What are you guys thinking?

@Red @Scottish @Badass Dybala @PhRoZeN @Ford Prefect @Gep @JuveMkd @K.O. @Mike-e-y @Nicholas @Pirlo's Beard @YouVay

too many ifs and buts. Tbh I wouldn't be too surprised if the EU collapses sooner or later regardless of the outcome of this referendum. Frankly I think the whole campaign on both sides has been idiotic and without really showing any real evidence of what the impacts are on either decisions, rather more they are picking on each others points and putting a spin on it to suit them. Tbh I really didn't want to vote at all because of it however I do feel somewhat strongly against the immigration issue and the knock on effects especially on the NHS which is why I did vote leave. I watched Cameron on this Q&A session the other evening who stated that immigrants who have lived here for a number of years and paid into the system can only benefit from it, to be honest I just simply don't buy that.

I must admit though some of the conversations I've heard in the work place have worried me somewhat by the sheer lack of knowledge and education on the topic

"I don't think we should leave the EU because England won't be able to compete in the euros or in the eurovision song contest"


I shit you not

 

[DAiDEViL]

Please don't leave. We need you.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

too many ifs and buts. Tbh I wouldn't be too surprised if the EU collapses sooner or later regardless of the outcome of this referendum. Frankly I think the whole campaign on both sides has been idiotic and without really showing any real evidence of what the impacts are on either decisions, rather more they are picking on each others points and putting a spin on it to suit them. Tbh I really didn't want to vote at all because of it however I do feel somewhat strongly against the immigration issue and the knock on effects especially on the NHS which is why I did vote leave. I watched Cameron on this Q&A session the other evening who stated that immigrants who have lived here for a number of years and paid into the system can only benefit from it, to be honest I just simply don't buy that.

I must admit though some of the conversations I've heard in the work place have worried me somewhat by the sheer lack of knowledge and education on the topic

"I don't think we should leave the EU because England won't be able to compete in the euros or in the eurovision song contest"


I shit you not

I think a mandatory test should be issued out before being allowed to vote to try and weed out idiots like that.

And Cameron is talking a load of shit as per usual. Obviously it's part of being a politician but he pretty much outright lies half of the time.

 

[JuveJay]

Yeah naturally but I reckon we'd be absolutely fine. Might be some bumps short term but I hardly see us ever failing in the long run. We really don't need to be tied to the EU considering the mess a lot of those countries are in. Last I heard the unemployment rates in places like Greece were shocking. The EU is hardly solving problems.

I think 1/3 of Germans would opt out (for similar reasons), and the BBC did a recent poll of Italians and the majority of them thought the UK should leave (and Italy would given the chance, and go back to the lira).

 

[Boksic]

Yeah naturally but I reckon we'd be absolutely fine. Might be some bumps short term but I hardly see us ever failing in the long run. We really don't need to be tied to the EU considering the mess a lot of those countries are in. Last I heard the unemployment rates in places like Greece were shocking. The EU is hardly solving problems.

I have to agree, i think we will be fine either way which is one of the reasons I am undecided.

I can see positives and negatives on both sides. If we stay in I hope it is close so that changes might happen.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

Yeah I was undecided until one day I decided to really try and educate myself on it (As best as you can in politics with liars either side) and after that decided on vote leave myself.

One thing I do find funny in the general public is usually a lot of your average working man/woman spends a lot of time moaning about the 'big companies' and seemingly despise everything they stand for. Then when a couple of CEO's from major companies come out and say it would be in THEIR best interest to stay within the EU a lot of the aforementioned people change their tune and go in to full blown panic mode as if the interests of the lad working 40 hours a week at daves run down warehouse down the road aligns with a 6 figure salaried CEO within a business with ties around Europe.

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I think 1/3 of Germans would opt out (for similar reasons), and the BBC did a recent poll of Italians and the majority of them thought the UK should leave (and Italy would given the chance, and go back to the lira).

Wouldn't surprise me if a successful 'leave' vote triggered a domino effect within the EU. We won't be the only country who wants out and a lot of undecided people will change their tune if they see us coping well within our own means.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Really quite scared about Thursday, were on the verge of making a bafflingly terrible decision.

 

[Ocelot]

Breaking up the EU would be the single most moronic political decision of the past decades easily. I know that some of the policies pursued by Brussels (mostly led by Germany) the past few years have been everything else but smart, but there really is no solving the problems of the present and coming decades without a politically at least somewhat unified Europe.

The UK has been one of the biggest hinderances in that respect ever since Thatcher anyways.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

we have our own problems, maybe we should focus on that instead of being taken along for a ride with Europe and dragged in their messes. Maybe we'd be a more politically united Europe if Britain didn't constantly get overruled. Might as well pay them to be lapdogs.

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Seen something earlier online.

"55 measures opposed by the UK; 55 defeats

Business for Britain recently analysed votes which took place at the Council of the EU since 1996. The Council is where national ministers from each EU country meet to decide on laws. The decisions they take must be unanimous in some cases (for instance foreign and security policy) or require a simple or qualified majority in others.

Business for Britain identified and listed - using publicly available sources and Freedom of Information Requests - 55 occasions in which the UK voted 'no' to a measure put before the Council and when the measure passed anyway because the UK was outvoted."


Dat unification. We have a say in jack shit, and pay Billions for the privilege of getting overruled.

 

[Nenz]

I posted some long ass posts in another place a little while back on why I'm in favour of 'leave'

There will absolutely be downfalls if we leave but I think there will be plenty of upsides too.

For starters free movement AKA masses of unskilled workers coming in to the country when we absolutely do not need them is stupid. An Australian style procedure for immigration would be excellent. Hell just recruiting the types of people we actually NEED would be fantastic.
Then there's the EU which is a complete mess for the most part. A couple of years ago the EU GDP growth rate was lower than any continent bar Antarctica

God I wish Brexiteers and other anti-EU figures would stop citing Australia's immigration policy as an example for Europe. Australia's immigration policy involves propping up makeshift camps and detention centers on neighboring pacific islands with few more provisions than food, water and very basic shelter. When the migrants protested they've been beaten by armed guards and locals, some to death. Women have been raped and impregnated by security staff and locals (the Australian government refused the impregnated victims C sections in Australian hospitals), children as young as 8 are attempting suicide and men are now self-immolating. Last year the government issued a full media ban on Christmas Island and Nauru. So they're fully aware of what they're doing here.

Detainees have two choices, accept resettlement in a third world country (the Aus government has spent $55M to resettle only ONE migrant in Cambodia with terminal health complications, untreatable in Cambodian hospitals) with no prospects of work or a normal life OR go back to the country from which you were fleeing persecution - many in the camps are Iranian political dissidents/ethnic minorities or they are ethnic Rohingya's who are systematically starved and slaughtered in Burma.

The atrocities happening on Nauru and Christmas Island detention centers now happen with such monotonous regularity that no one seems to care anymore. Both sides of Parliament spin it off as the evil necessary to solve a 'problem' which was never harming our society in the first place. This cruel policy actually costs more than processing and resettling migrants in Australia. Yes, standing up for basic human rights at less of a cost to a budget which is in deficit is actually now considered to be political suicide by both sides of politics.

Genuine asylum seekers who arrive in Australian waters by the only means available to them (unauthorized passage by boat) are never ever ever processed even if they're more than eligible for settlement (genuine claim for asylum, no criminal history, skilled worker). Instead, they're kicked from the queue forever, indefinitely detained and tortured until they return to the place they are fleeing. No review of their eligibility ever takes place to separate the wheat from the chaff as so many Brexiteers seem to believe. There is no pragmatism, just systematic cruelty.

I know the problem is different in Europe, but Australia's immigration policy since the turn of the millennium has been nothing but an election ploy designed to appeal to fear and bigotry. It's the biggest blight on the national conscience since the Stolen Generation. Even Anders Breivik paid homage to Australia's immigration policies in his manifesto. Britain have a terribly under regulated system of immigration, but Australia is not a good example for decent human beings to follow and I sincerely hope that the pendulum in Europe doesn't swing so far from the EU paradigm that it reverts to being the nationalistic clusterfuck it was 80 years ago.

 

[Osman]

Damn Nenz, it's been a long while since a post here horrified and disgusted me as much. I read a bit about the brutality of your hostile integration policies, but seriously, jeez

 

[Salvo]

God I wish Brexiteers and other anti-EU figures would stop citing Australia's immigration policy as an example for Europe. Australia's immigration policy involves propping up makeshift camps and detention centers on neighboring pacific islands with few more provisions than food, water and very basic shelter. When the migrants protested they've been beaten by armed guards and locals, some to death. Women have been raped and impregnated by security staff and locals (the Australian government refused the impregnated victims C sections in Australian hospitals), children as young as 8 are attempting suicide and men are now self-immolating. Last year the government issued a full media ban on Christmas Island and Nauru. So they're fully aware of what they're doing here.

Detainees have two choices, accept resettlement in a third world country (the Aus government has spent $55M to resettle only ONE migrant in Cambodia with terminal health complications, untreatable in Cambodian hospitals) with no prospects of work or a normal life OR go back to the country from which you were fleeing persecution - many in the camps are Iranian political dissidents/ethnic minorities or they are ethnic Rohingya's who are systematically starved and slaughtered in Burma.

The atrocities happening on Nauru and Christmas Island detention centers now happen with such monotonous regularity that no one seems to care anymore. Both sides of Parliament spin it off as the evil necessary to solve a 'problem' which was never harming our society in the first place. This cruel policy actually costs more than processing and resettling migrants in Australia. Yes, standing up for basic human rights at less of a cost to a budget which is in deficit is actually now considered to be political suicide by both sides of politics.

Genuine asylum seekers who arrive in Australian waters by the only means available to them (unauthorized passage by boat) are never ever ever processed even if they're more than eligible for settlement (genuine claim for asylum, no criminal history, skilled worker). Instead, they're kicked from the queue forever, indefinitely detained and tortured until they return to the place they are fleeing. No review of their eligibility ever takes place to separate the wheat from the chaff as so many Brexiteers seem to believe. There is no pragmatism, just systematic cruelty.

I know the problem is different in Europe, but Australia's immigration policy since the turn of the millennium has been nothing but an election ploy designed to appeal to fear and bigotry. It's the biggest blight on the national conscience since the Stolen Generation. Even Anders Breivik paid homage to Australia's immigration policies in his manifesto. Britain have a terribly under regulated system of immigration, but Australia is not a good example for decent human beings to follow and I sincerely hope that the pendulum in Europe doesn't swing so far from the EU paradigm that it reverts to being the nationalistic clusterfuck it was 80 years ago.

Well said

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

Well I don't know about people you have been talking to mean, but I and most others are referring to the criteria for immigrants to come here and work. Let me be clear this is NOT about refugees, even if some closet Nazis on the leave side want it to be. This is about economic migrants and the migration programme. Not the humanitarian stuff.


My point has absolutely zero to do with asylum seekers, and everything to do with low skilled workers coming here from WITHIN the EU to take low skilled jobs. NOT refugees from outside of Europe.

This is the EU referendum we're talking about here. Whatever we do or do not do for these Refugees otuside of Europe is another debate entirely. For the purposes of this, this is about unskilled Europeans coming to our country because of the vastly superior opportunities and wages here. People who are really not needed, definitely not in the numbers we get.


Again, this is about economic migrants not our stance on refugees.




We have our own points system, but because we're in the EU that goes out the window if the person(s) trying to relocate to Britain are already from within Europe. So we have virtually no say on who gets in and how many gets in.

Even if you are European and have a criminal record, we still don't have the right to tell you to fuck off unless we can 'Prove the person is an active threat'

 

[Nenz]

Well I don't know about people you have been talking to mean, but I and most others are referring to the criteria for immigrants to come here and work. Let me be clear this is NOT about refugees, even if some closet Nazis on the leave side want it to be. This is about economic migrants and the migration programme. Not the humanitarian stuff.


My point has absolutely zero to do with asylum seekers, and everything to do with low skilled workers coming here from WITHIN the EU to take low skilled jobs. NOT refugees from outside of Europe.

This is the EU referendum we're talking about here. Whatever we do or do not do for these Refugees otuside of Europe is another debate entirely. For the purposes of this, this is about unskilled Europeans coming to our country because of the vastly superior opportunities and wages here. People who are really not needed, definitely not in the numbers we get.


Again, this is about economic migrants not our stance on refugees.


We have our own points system, but because we're in the EU that goes out the window if the person(s) trying to relocate to Britain are already from within Europe. So we have virtually no say on who gets in and how many gets in.

Even if you are European and have a criminal record, we still don't have the right to tell you to $#@! off unless we can 'Prove the person is an active threat'

Yes the problems both countries face vis-a-vis immigration are completely different. So is the political context of either nation. I'm not trying to make direct comparisons and I'm not attacking you for your suggestion. Sorry if it looks like I flew off the handle lol. I just wanted to give anyone voting in this referendum a reality check on what your politicians are promoting inadvertently or otherwise.

The point is that unlike Australia, EU members have real immigration issues. An exit from the EU gives policy makers a mandate to address those problems but what really shocks me is when I see British politicians campaigning for Brexit continually citing Australia's immigration policy as an example to follow. It's very plausible that a sovereign nation wishes to regulate the massive influx of migrants coming into their country. But in the wrong political and social context, that idea can mutate into something very unpleasant as it has in Australia in the last 20 years (the social and political conditions here seemed fairly innocuous to begin with). Even authorized skilled migrants are terribly exploited here due to a frankly racist culture - a nasty bi-product of years of rhetoric and dog whistling on the matter.

Lord knows there is a real anti-immigration and nationalistic feeling slowly brewing in pockets of Europe at the moment. Politicians are depraved enough to tap into that given the right opportunity. So leaders speaking highly of Australia's immigration policy seems like a bad omen. It's a little bit eerie. Like I said, the idea you're referring to is perfectly plausible but Australia hasn't been a beacon for neither rational nor humane immigration policy for over a decade (that includes unauthorized asylum seekers and economic migrants) and you would think that the proponents of it in the UK would be aware of that.

One last thing... one of the murkiest and ugliest facets of the whole debate is deciphering a genuine asylum seeker from an economic migrant and then deciding how many asylum seekers/economic migrants can come to the UK if any. The UK has a myriad of excuses to shut their doors completely to whoever. Nevertheless, the push factors which drive migrants (both genuine refugees and economic migrants alike) will remain and they will continue to arrive. That is what presents the moral dilemma of what to do with these people. And if the UK governments were to take a leaf out of Australia's book, they would be implementing a cruel policy of deterrence.

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Damn Nenz, it's been a long while since a post here horrified and disgusted me as much. I read a bit about the brutality of your hostile integration policies, but seriously, jeez

Yeah, Australia is a weird place like that. It has a friendly and accepting reputation as a multicultural country I think. But the national conversation has turned very nasty on immigration after the tenure of some very conservative, conservative governments. There's a humanitarian crisis going on in indigenous communities in our own back yard and atrocities being committed against innocent asylum seekers abroad. Two months into a federal election campaign and barely a peep on either issue from any major parties. It seems there's bipartisan agreement on only one thing in Aussie politics and that's being complete dogs.