UK Politics (17 Viewers)

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
I intend to vote 'yes'.

Had the 'devo-max' (more powers for Scotland, but not independence) option been on the ballot, as it looked like it would at one point, I probably would have voted for that.

Since the 'no' campaing were the ones who made sure 'devo-max' wasn't on the ballot, I was starting from a position where I was against them since they had denied me my preferred voting option and I have gradually become more convinced independence is the better option as the campaigns have gone on.

However, given that in the 'no' capaign's panic to avert a 'yes' vote in the last few day they have pretty much promised the stuff that would have been in 'devo-max', I feel as though I am heading into the referendum in a position where I'm very unlikely to be particularly put out at the outcome either way.

The 'yes' campaign has been pretty vague a lot of the time.

The 'no' campaign has just shouted 'no' at the top of their voice for the most part, claiming Scotland will lose out in every possible way with a 'yes' vote.

The reality, I believe, is that a 'yes' vote will simply result in a lot of negotiations about pretty much everything.

Neither Scotland nor England will get everything they want, but the continuing suggestion that Scotland will get absolutely nothing from it is silly given the rather useful bargaining chips Scotland would have.

For instance, if Westminster won't allow Scotland into any currency union, Scotland will probably decline to take over it's share of the UK's current national debt.

There are plent of reasons I could go into for voting 'yes', but I can't really be bothered.
thanks for sharing
 

Boksic

Senior Member
May 11, 2005
13,380
I always find it irritating when people are so blinkered as to not understand the position of others.

Regardless of the outcome of the vote, the country is going to be split close to 50-50 and it's that sort of attitude that will cause difficulty and possibly animosity when everyone is trying to figure out how to move forward after the vote.
I find it equally irritating when I hear of people wanting to completely put people's jobs at risk by wanting independence because "our ancestors fought for their lives at Bannockburn" or we don't like conservatives. These are genuine reasons people give to making a huge decision that will make a monumental change to our country.

Major businesses, banks, financial markets and economists have all indicated how costly this could be and it is simply cast aside as scaremongering.

I am more than happy to hear and understand someone else's point of view but when I hear these trivial reasons I cannot help but think that people are voting with emotion rather than their head.
 
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Nov 26, 2006
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  • Thread Starter #389
    Even if the union wins a reprieve on Thursday, the argument is clearly not going to end there. The hope once entertained by both Mr Cameron and Mr Miliband that this referendum would put independence to bed for a generation is now for the birds. Among yes voters, even among a lot of no voters, Scots have been energised and exhilarated. Their feeling of empowerment will surely have been sharpened by the spectacle of Westminster politicians on their knees pleading with them not to go. Even if Scotland says no this time, the nationalists will be back to ask the question again.

    Heads, Alex Salmond wins. Tails, he wins. In whatever currency you are using.


    http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-the-winner-scottish-independence-referendum
     
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    Nov 26, 2006
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  • Thread Starter #391
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

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    Perhaps the most arresting fact about the Scottish referendum is this: that there is no newspaper – local, regional or national, English or Scottish – that supports independence except the Sunday Herald. The Scots who will vote yes have been almost without representation in the media.

    There is nothing unusual about this. Change in any direction, except further over the brink of market fundamentalism and planetary destruction, requires the defiance of almost the entire battery of salaried opinion. What distinguishes the independence campaign is that it has continued to prosper despite this assault.

    In the coverage of the referendum we see most of the pathologies of the corporate media. Here, for instance, you will find the unfounded generalisations with which less enlightened souls are characterised. In the Spectator, Simon Heffer maintains that: “addicted to welfare ... Scots embraced the something for nothing society”, objecting to the poll tax “because many of them felt that paying taxes ought to be the responsibility of someone else”.

    Here is the condescension with which the dominant classes have always treated those they regard as inferior: their serfs, the poor, the Irish, Africans, anyone with whom they disagree. “What spoilt, selfish, childlike fools those Scots are ... They simply don’t have a clue how lucky they are,” sneered Melanie Reid in the Times. Here is the chronic inability to distinguish between a cause and a person: the referendum is widely portrayed as a vote about Alex Salmond, who is then monstered beyond recognition (a Telegraph editorial compared him to Robert Mugabe).

    The problem with the media is exemplified by Dominic Lawson’s column for the Daily Mail last week. He began with Scotland, comparing the “threat” of independence with that presented by Hitler (the article was helpfully illustrated with a picture of the Führer – unaccompanied, in this case, by the Mail’s former proprietor). Then he turned to the momentous issue of how he almost wrote something inaccurate about David Attenborough, which was narrowly averted because “as it happens, last weekend we had staying with us another of the BBC’s great figures, its world affairs editor John Simpson”, who happily corrected Lawson’s mistake. This was just as well because “the next day I went to the Royal Albert Hall as one of a small number of guests invited by the Proms director for that night’s performance. And who should I see as soon as I entered the little room set aside for our group’s pre-concert drinks? Sir David Attenborough.”

    Those who are supposed to hold power to account live in a rarefied, self-referential world of power, circulating among people as exalted as themselves, the “small number of guests” who receive the most charming invitations. That a senior journalist at the BBC should be the house guest of a columnist for the Daily Mail surprises me not one iota.

    In June the BBC’s economics editor, Robert Peston, complained that BBC news “is completely obsessed by the agenda set by newspapers … If we think the Mail and Telegraph will lead with this, we should. It’s part of the culture.” This might help to explain why the BBC has attracted so many complaints of bias in favour of the no campaign.

    Living within their tiny circle of light, most senior journalists seem unable to comprehend a desire for change. If they notice it at all, they perceive it as a mortal threat, comparable perhaps to Hitler. They know as little of the lives of the 64 million inhabiting the outer darkness as they do of the Andaman islanders. Yet, lecturing the poor from under the wisteria, they claim to speak for the nation.

    As John Harris reports in the Guardian, both north and south of the border “politics as usual suddenly seems so lost as to look completely absurd”. But to those within the circle, politics still begins and ends in Westminster. The opinions of no one beyond the gilded thousand with whom they associate is worthy of notice. Throughout the years I’ve spent working with protest movements and trying to bring neglected issues to light, one consistent theme has emerged: with a few notable exceptions, journalists are always among the last to twig that things have changed. It’s no wonder that the Scottish opinion polls took them by surprise.

    One of the roles of the Guardian, which has no proprietor, is to represent the unrepresented – and it often does so to great effect. On Scottish independence I believe we have fallen short. Our leader on Saturday used the frames constructed by the rest of the press, inflating a couple of incidents into a “habit” by yes campaigners of “attacking the messenger and ignoring the message”, judging the long-term future of the nation by current SNP policy, confusing self-determination with nationalism.

    If Westminster is locked into a paralysing neoliberal consensus it is partly because the corporate media, owned and staffed by its beneficiaries, demands it. Any party that challenges this worldview is ruthlessly disciplined. Any party that more noisily promotes corporate power is lauded and championed. Ukip, though it claims to be kicking against the establishment, owes much of its success to the corporate press.

    For a moment, Rupert Murdoch appeared ready to offer one of his Faustian bargains to the Scottish National party: my papers for your soul. That offer now seems to have been withdrawn, as he has decided that Salmond’s SNP is “not talking about independence, but more welfarism, expensive greenery, etc and passing sovereignty to Brussels” and that it “must change course to prosper if he wins”. It’s not an observation, it’s a warning: if you win independence and pursue this agenda, my newspapers will destroy you.

    Despite the rise of social media, the established media continues to define the scope of representative politics in Britain, to shape political demands and to punish and erase those who resist. It is one chamber of the corrupt heart of Britain, pumping fear, misinformation and hatred around the body politic.

    That so many Scots, lambasted from all quarters as fools, frauds and ingrates, have refused to be bullied is itself a political triumph. If they vote for independence, they will do so in defiance not only of the Westminster consensus but also of its enforcers: the detached, complacent people who claim to speak on their behalf.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists
     

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