UEFA Cups (or decline of Italian football) (2 Viewers)

[Doctor]

In another thread we spoke about reasons for supporting or not supporting Italian clubs playing in European cups.
With Italian league becoming only the 3rd best league in the eyes of many, I believe that whatever Juventus does domesticly would be downgraded because Real Madrid or Man. Utd. titles in Spain or Britain would be worth more than eventual Juventus title in SeriaA.

With all do respect for Inter, last SeriaA was the weekest one ever played and Italian football is obviously in decline, which is highlighted by number of good Italian players deciding to play their football abroad. Keep in mind that something like this rearly happends with English or to the certain extent even Spanish players.

What is even more evident is the huge gap between big clubs who can alwayes buy what their need and the normal SerieA clubs who (to the certain extent) represent the true state of Italian football. Speaking of which, just look at how badly thay have done compared to medium size clubs of some other football leagues.

Only one Italian club, Fiorentina, made it to the group stage of the UEFA Cups. And it neaded penalties to beat avrage (7th in Duch standings) Groningen side. Palermo was defeated by Mlada Bolesav (have anyone ever heard of this guys? 5th in Czech league), Sampdoria lost to AaB (whoever they are, 3rd in Danish league) and finally, Empoli lost to Zurich (2nd in Switzerland).

Speaking of the other big leagues, they will be very well represented in group stage of the UEFA Cup. Germans have 4 while English, Spanish, French and even Russians have 3 representatives each. With all the facts in place, its easy to conclude that there is a certan decline in Italian football and that we need sucsess of Italian clubs in European Cups in order to retain our status and hopefully go back to being considered the best league in the world.

 

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[.zero]

respect is there but support is not for me. the way inter, roma and lazio perfomed last year was an embarrassment. besides milan taking it all in cl the view of italian clubs doesnt rate that high in the eyes of non-italian club supporters. milan proved that they were the best team in europe but i dont think their crown overshadowed the atrocities that were roma and inter. but thats just my opinion.

 

[Doctor]

respect is there but support is not for me. the way inter, roma and lazio perfomed last year was an embarrassment. besides milan taking it all in cl the view of italian clubs doesnt rate that high in the eyes of non-italian club supporters. milan proved that they were the best team in europe but i dont think their crown overshadowed the atrocities that were roma and inter. but thats just my opinion.

While Roma did get imberesed at the end, Inter went out fighting to a good Valencia team.
I dont think you can blame tham.

 

[.zero]

i'm not blaming inter but italian football is far different from any other style of the game around the world IMO. we are defensive and ugly when it comes to the playing on the ball with some of the most talented home-grown and home-owned players. pizzaz and flash is not part of our game and sometimes when we are brought down it is more than evident that italian soccer is somewhat lack luster which translates to our performances against the worlds best.

 

[Kosta]

Maybe they realized that they don't have the squad depth to compete in this competition and jeopardize their survival in Seria A. The examples are plenty out there, the first I can think of is Celta Vigo, played in CL , and where are they now....

 

[Doctor]

Maybe they realized that they don't have the squad depth to compete in this competition and jeopardize their survival in Seria A. The examples are plenty out there, the first I can think of is Celta Vigo, played in CL , and where are they now....

You dont believe that do you?

Fiorentina is 5th best team in the league and they will be looking to bump Milan out of top 4 and make it to the Champions league. They would have finished 3rd in the league last season if there werent for deducted points.

Palermo is probebly our 6th or 7th best team and it has been having a good season so far.

Sampdoria to should have no problem avoiding relegation. If they have anything to play late in the season, it will be european qualification.

Empoli mite be better off concetrating on the league, but I am sure they wanted to do well in their first european adventure.

 

[Kosta]

I said Maybe, I'm not implying anything.

 

[Elvin]

The truth is: Italian teams care about Serie A more than UEFA Cup.

 

[HelterSkelter]

How do you figure that out?

The fact that there hasnt been an Italian team in the latter stages of the UEFA cup since Inter reached the semis a few years ago doesnt mean that Italian teams dont take the UEFA cup seriously.It just means that the teams taking part in the UEFA cup from Spain and England are stronger than the ones from Italy.Going by your logic,Juventus dont even take the CL final seriously.

 

[sateeh]

Well then how come there was a lot of diversity between the dominating teams in the past and there were a lot of big teams in the competition.

Simply put because this competition was just raped by the new system, structure of its own competition and the CL. A few years back you would see teams fighting tooth and nail for this competition because it simply had more monetary value with a lot of prestigious value as well.

Now thats all gone, a few big teams are in the competition and thats why it lost a lot. The smaller teams can't just afford to play their first teams, as its not worth it. I remember the words of the Livorno boss last year who said exactly that.

Thats not only with the Italian teams, as there are a lot of other teams that get hurt by playing in the competition with little gain in the end.

 

[Doctor]

How do you figure that out?
The fact that there hasnt been an Italian team in the latter stages of the UEFA cup since Inter reached the semis a few years ago doesnt mean that Italian teams dont take the UEFA cup seriously.It just means that the teams taking part in the UEFA cup from Spain and England are stronger than the ones from Italy.

I remember last season, Palermo players cared so much for UEFA Cup that the manager felt it was a big distraction from their SeraA preformences.
The fact that Italian teams are doing badly in UEFA Cups is just proof that the gap betwen big and small clubs in much bigger in Italy than in other countryes.

While we have developed top 4 with Inter, Milan, Roma and Juventus and than the gap, clubs like Lazio, Fiorentina and Palermo just can not cross, in other top countryes its different. So players from those clubs are not wanted by the big 4, they will feel that they need to leave the country in order to play in the big stage (Champions league).

In England, out of top 4 of ManUtd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal, you have top clubs that are spending big and are constantly, genuinly trying to brake into the top 4. Tottenham has argubaly spent more than any Italian club this summer and has one of the best cores of young players in the world. National team star Jermaine Defoe or 20million sighning Darren Bent can not get into their lineup. Newcastle is also great with established stars such as Owen or Martins who have also been played kind of money Italian small clubs just can not afford.

If you look at Spain, its preaty much the same with clubs like Villarreal or Sevilla brakeing threw into the top 4 all the time. Out of smaller club Athletico Madrid was big spender this time bringing in players such as Antonio Rayes and Diago Forlan.

Just look at Germany that was so competative that Bayern didnt even make it to the Champions league.

 

[Oggy]

I tottaly agree with U except Germany league part. You can't say that their league is competative when Bayern always dominate (last season they didn't and that is rare exception) and will dominate, especially now with all players they bought. And when you look at European competitions you realise that German league is weakest, only Bayern have consistency.

 

[swag]

How do you figure that out?

The fact that there hasnt been an Italian team in the latter stages of the UEFA cup since Inter reached the semis a few years ago doesnt mean that Italian teams dont take the UEFA cup seriously.It just means that the teams taking part in the UEFA cup from Spain and England are stronger than the ones from Italy.Going by your logic,Juventus dont even take the CL final seriously.

But they don't take it seriously. Parma was notorious for fielding their B team for the UEFA Cup while their A team focused on salvezza not long ago.

This is all an artifact of how UEFA diluted the Champions League by letting in any team that remotely looks like a top 5 finisher in big leagues, making the UEFA Cup the joke bracket.

Even so, the Italian papers this morning were reporting on the disaster of the UEFA Cup with all the exits. As if anyone really cares here.

 

[JuveAdam]

My view on the UEFA Cup.

This competition has been in serious decline since UEFA changed the European Cup into the cash-cow that is the "Champions" League. By letting in 4 teams instead of one, the UEFA Cup is now competed for by teams finishing as low as 8th in their league, lower when Fair play & Intertoto entries are considered. The progress of Italian teams in the UEFA Cup is a long story. In the 11 finals between 1989 & 1999, there was only one final with no Italian team in (96 Bayern v Bordeaux) During this same period there were 8 Italian wins & 4 all Italian finals. Since then;

2001 - all 3 teams knocked out in round 4. 2 by the finalists.
2002 - 2 teams into semi's, other out in round 4
2003 - Chievo & Parma both focused on salvezza, Lazio losing in Semi to winners
2004 - Parma again, Roma in 4th round, Inter out to finalist in quarters
2005 - Lazio & Udine out early, Parma reached semi, lost to winners
2006 - Calciopoli. Juve, Lazio & Fiorentina all barred from European comeptition, Roma & Chievo into CL, Palermo, Livorno & Parma entered after finishing outside european places.

I feel this shows that the progress of Italian teams has been better in recent years than reported & that the 1st ten years I discussed make a tough comparison to keep up with. This years entries are tainted in the same way as last years as the effects of Calciopoli are still evident. After next season I think it would be much better to judge, giving Serie A more time to recover the terrible blows last summer dealt it. The post-mortem reports of this morning are grossly exaggerated in my opinion & are writtern on the back of admittedly a poor week in Italian football. However they seem to be suffering from "recentism", a bit like the Arsenal fan who seems to believe that because of a shiny new stadium they are now a big club...........

 

[HelterSkelter]

But they don't take it seriously. Parma was notorious for fielding their B team for the UEFA Cup while their A team focused on salvezza not long ago.

This is all an artifact of how UEFA diluted the Champions League by letting in any team that remotely looks like a top 5 finisher in big leagues, making the UEFA Cup the joke bracket.

Even so, the Italian papers this morning were reporting on the disaster of the UEFA Cup with all the exits. As if anyone really cares here.

But there was a reason why Parma wasfielding its B team in europe.They were battling with relegation,and i expect any club that was has been in top flight football for a decent amount of time to pay more attention to the league than a european competition,PROVIDED that they are battling with relegation.You wont see the Parma scenario too often.They wouldnt have fielded their B team in the UEFA cup had their Serie A status not been in jeaopardy.Their case was an exception.

I cannot fathom why a club would not want to take a European Competition seriously,even if its the UEFA cup.Sure,the cup's quality may have declined because the teams are that strong,but i wont buy that they dont play as well as they should on purpose.

 

[Snoop]

But they don't take it seriously. Parma was notorious for fielding their B team for the UEFA Cup while their A team focused on salvezza not long ago.

This is all an artifact of how UEFA diluted the Champions League by letting in any team that remotely looks like a top 5 finisher in big leagues, making the UEFA Cup the joke bracket.

Even so, the Italian papers this morning were reporting on the disaster of the UEFA Cup with all the exits. As if anyone really cares here.

It is indeed a disaster, and only UEFA is responsible for that. that's because they don't invest much money on it, and when that is the case, clubs won't bother themselves to win it, unless if they have a huge squad that can play both domestically and in UEFA, or if they don't care (aren't worries about finishing at the bottom or the middle of the table) about their league's position..

Just look at this sad fact, with all Sevilla's effort, they only managed to win 4.2 Million pound and the other finalist made 3.5 million pound. Now you tell me, would If you were Fiorentina or Palermo manager, would you focus on the league to make a huge effort and win a CL seeding to have a piece of that big cake of CL (Huge Finance), or you would go for UEFA while they have many competitives out there at their level and they could risk ending out without title, and what for? for a 4 Million pound. Which crazy would do that and risk their League position?

 

[Azzurri7]

Good points out there, Snoop.

 

[loyada]

winning uefa cup matches is really important for "UEFA European Cup Coefficients". "The so-called UEFA coefficients are calculated by taking an average, based on the total number of points divided by the total number of teams of each country.The UEFA country ranking is computed by the sum of 5 coefficients in the last 5 years. To determine the participants in the Champions League and the UEFA Cup the last year ranking is used, because each country should know at the start of the season how many places it disposes."

Currently Italy is third below spain and england (the first 3 disposes 4 UCL places)and above france and germany (each disposes 3 UCL places) , Italy was first in the ranking not so long ago but now have to defend her third place (and the 4 UCL places which comes with) from france and germany.
italians teams should start winning uefa cup matches or risk losing the third place to germany or france and lose one UCL place to them.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/

 

[Fred]

It is indeed a disaster, and only UEFA is responsible for that. that's because they don't invest much money on it, and when that is the case, clubs won't bother themselves to win it, unless if they have a huge squad that can play both domestically and in UEFA, or if they don't care (aren't worries about finishing at the bottom or the middle of the table) about their league's position..

Just look at this sad fact, with all Sevilla's effort, they only managed to win 4.2 Million pound and the other finalist made 3.5 million pound. Now you tell me, would If you were Fiorentina or Palermo manager, would you focus on the league to make a huge effort and win a CL seeding to have a piece of that big cake of CL (Huge Finance), or you would go for UEFA while they have many competitives out there at their level and they could risk ending out without title, and what for? for a 4 Million pound. Which crazy would do that and risk their League position?

good post mate.

 

[Geof]

From http://www.footballingworld.com/

Italian woe on the continent
By Matthew Day

While Serie A is booming with goals, incident and a four-way title race, Italian club sides’ fortunes in European competition could hardly be more contrasting.

It seemed as if the Italian game had recovered from the infamous Calciopoli scandal after AC Milan surged to Champions League glory last May; Serie A also thrived with a higher goal average than both La Liga and the Premier League. Yet with an exodus of young Italian talent over the summer and a lack of transfer pull from top-flight clubs, including big guns Inter and AC Milan, the league has suffered – and accordingly results on the continent have been poor.

In the Champions League, Inter have made their customary sluggish start to the campaign. The likes of Luís Figo have demanded long-awaited success in Europe this season, but the perpetual underachievers again look destined to struggle to mount a challenge. They fell to a humbling 1-0 defeat at Fenerbahçe on matchday one and although they triumphed 2-0 over PSV at the San Siro on Tuesday, more disciplinary problems look set to further harm their chances of ultimately claiming the coveted silverware, Chivu and Suazo both seeing red, adding to the list of suspensions which have been carried forward from last season’s mass brawl at Valencia.


“Italy will have just one team in the Uefa Cup group stages with three sides surprisingly crashing out - that’s as many as Scotland”

Their bitter city rivals are hardly faring much better. An unconvincing 2-1 victory at home to Benfica put a miserable start domestically behind them, but a tame defeat at the hands of unheralded Celtic heaped the pressure on coach Carlo Ancelotti and made qualification for the first knockout stage look problematical. Shakhtar Donetsk have already claimed six points from two matches and Celtic sit behind them in second with three, and a trip to Benfica promises to be a tough test of Milan’s credentials. It’s not all bad on the Champions League front, however – Lazio claimed a draw at home to Real Madrid to follow up a point in Greece against Olympiakos, and Roma look set to qualify despite a greatly unfortunate defeat at Old Trafford where they dominated for large parts.

The lack of depth in the Italian game is even more worrying, demonstrated by results in the Uefa Cup on Thursday. Spain had three representatives in the Uefa Cup semi-finals last season; England had three at the same stage of the Champions League, but Italy will have just one for the group stages as three sides surprisingly crashed out. That’s as many as Scotland – Aberdeen having edged through against Dnipro – and two less than both Spain and England.

Sampdoria, who strengthened significantly over the close season with the introduction of Montella and Cassano up front, crashed to little-known Danish outfit AaB, who became the first club from the country to knock an Italian side out of any European competition. Empoli followed suit, losing a 2-1 lead from the home leg at the hands of underdogs FC Zürich to go out 4-2 on aggregate. Palermo made it a hat-trick against Mlada Boleslav, losing 1-0 at home to leave the tie balanced at 1-1 on aggregate, and after extra time failed to separate the sides, the Czech visitors came out victorious 4-2 on penalties. Just one side managed to make the group stages – Fiorentina, who only qualified after a penalty shoot-out against FC Groningen – a poor return for a nation engulfed in football.

Is this the start of a decline in Italian influence on the continent or merely an anomalous year? If it’s the former, the game in Italy will have to take a long and hard look at itself and question where and why it went wrong, and what can be done to combat a problem that can quickly swell. After a dumbfounding week in European competition, the Scottish league appears to be closing in on its Italian counterpart – a situation no one would have envisaged 12 months ago. So what does the next year hold in store for the home of the world champions?

http://www.footballingworld.com/2007/10/05/italian-woe-on-the-continent/