UEFA CUP, final. Drogba - we realy wont this guy (21 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by nosubstitute959 ] ++


So you're telling me Arsenal and Manchester Utd are miles behind the likes of Lyon, Monaco and PSG?!! And yes, Jacques Santini picked from the EPL.....they excelled in the EPL, and if it was such a shitty league as you claim, then anyone can excel there and he wouldn't have picked half his squad from there. A shitty league refers to one where the teams are weak except for 2 or 3, which is far from the case in the EPL. Just take a look back at all the upsets that happened this season. Being able to make the CL final or not is not that critical in judging a league as far as I'm concerned. Just because Monaco beat Chelsea and Marseille beat Newcastle, don't tell me the French league is better. Where were the French teams before this year?!

And for the records, I'm neither American nor do I lack any knowledge of soccer. You have no right to judge me setting your opinion as a standard.

I was not refering to you as an American who knows nothing about soccer! I was just making a generalization NOT based on this conversation. It just seems ever so comon people here think that the EPL is the best league in the world, which IMO it is not.

No, I am not saying those squads are better than PSG. But I am saying that Monaco has a better TEAM than Manure or Arsenal.

Okay, all the upsets this season. Every league has upsets. But I think that if a team like Arsenal can go undefeated in the League the whole season, something just doesn't make sense. And then Arsenal losing to Chelsea in the C.L. just makes the story even better. If not one team can beat Arsenal in the EPL, while in Europe Arsenal had what......3 losses or so? I think that right there shows the quality of the other teams in the EPL, or maybe more specifically, the weak defenses of the EPL. And this is why a team like Arsenal has never won the C.L., just because domestically they can waltz through the league like clowns at a circus.

 

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[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Graham ] ++

See, that's the difference. English teams come very close to qualifying. Italian and Spanish teams qualify

Okay, the first game that comes to mind is the reverse fixture, Inter 3-0 Arsenal. You can't talk about two matches, one of which involved an English team almost made it to the semifinals, and another match in which an English team beat the laughingstock of Italian football, but only having been beaten by that same team 3-0.

Hey, I like to watch the English league too. It's open, pacy and physical. That doesn't mean the teams are strong though, especially compared to European competition.

That would be a valid thing to say if I had done the same, but I didn't take any timespan, I took the last few years including this one. We are talking about the present-day leagues, right?

Now let's take a look at the EPL of the past decade or so. In the past 12 years, England's top division has been won by Man Utd 8 times, and Arsenal 3 times.

I totaly agree with Gray.

I mean come on people, just look at the facts. Only one English team has played in the C.L. Final for the past 17 YEARS. I'm sorry, but facts is what keeps the world running. English teams can't cut it in Europe, and that stems down from the quality of their domestic league.

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry but you're talking out of your arse again. Every domestic league has a period of dominance on the European front. The Englidh had it, the italians had it, and the Spanish have had it, and are arguably still enjoying it, to a lesser extent.

There are a whole range of factors that contribute to teams' success in europe, such as luck of the draw, poor management by the opposition, injury, suspension, referreing decisions etc, its not as straightforward as being better. If that were the case then porto and monaco are the best teams in Europe; arguably the world. This, as you will appreciate is bollocks. Quality of league cannot be gauged from looking at European success. otherwise the German league would be quite high because of Bayern Munich's relative successes over recent times!

If you're judging the quality of league you have to use a bit of intelligence and see beyong meaningless statistics like the one you posted. Its quite clear to any rational minded people that the Premiership is a stronger league than le Championnat!

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
I'm sorry but you're talking out of your arse again. Every domestic league has a period of dominance on the European front. The Englidh had it, the italians had it, and the Spanish have had it, and are arguably still enjoying it, to a lesser extent.

That's true, but we're talking about the respective leagues of today, and English clubs haven't enjoyed a spell of dominance for a very long time.

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
There are a whole range of factors that contribute to teams' success in europe, such as luck of the draw, poor management by the opposition, injury, suspension, referreing decisions etc, its not as straightforward as being better. If that were the case then porto and monaco are the best teams in Europe; arguably the world. This, as you will appreciate is bollocks. Quality of league cannot be gauged from looking at European success. otherwise the German league would be quite high because of Bayern Munich's relative successes over recent times!

Of course there's other factors beyond the players' control that can influence a football match, but to say that the reasons for English teams' poor performance on the European stage can be attributed to refereeing decisions and injury every single season is ridiculous. Part of the measure of a team is the ability of their squad to deal with injuries, and being able to beat any team they come up against despite "the luck of the draw" (See Juve's draw in the CL last season, which was no mean feat by any means).

As for Porto and Monaco not being the best clubs in Europe, of course they're not. But that's because they've only been great in Europe this season. If Monaco and Porto perform this well consistently for the next, say... 17 seasons, I'd start to believe that they're a European force.

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
If you're judging the quality of league you have to use a bit of intelligence and see beyong meaningless statistics like the one you posted. Its quite clear to any rational minded people that the Premiership is a stronger league than le Championnat!

I was never part of the argument that le Chapmionnat is better then the Premiership, I'm just addressing those who think that it's the best league in the world, so please bear with me. I agree that the Champions League is different in that a team can be knocked out with a little bit of bad luck, but Arsenal's dominance in the Premiership speaks for itself.A league in which a team like Arsenal (who could be beaten on a good day by many Italian and Spanish teams) goes undefeated for a whole season, surely has to say something about the quality of a league.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
I'm sorry but you're talking out of your arse again. Every domestic league has a period of dominance on the European front. The Englidh had it, the italians had it, and the Spanish have had it, and are arguably still enjoying it, to a lesser extent.

There are a whole range of factors that contribute to teams' success in europe, such as luck of the draw, poor management by the opposition, injury, suspension, referreing decisions etc, its not as straightforward as being better. If that were the case then porto and monaco are the best teams in Europe; arguably the world. This, as you will appreciate is bollocks. Quality of league cannot be gauged from looking at European success. otherwise the German league would be quite high because of Bayern Munich's relative successes over recent times!

If you're judging the quality of league you have to use a bit of intelligence and see beyong meaningless statistics like the one you posted. Its quite clear to any rational minded people that the Premiership is a stronger league than le Championnat!

First of all, I never said that le Championnat is better than the EPL. Actually, overall, it isn't.

But the fact I pointed out and Gray reiterated, about Arsenal going undefeated in the EPL, really shows my point well. While Arsenal was going undefeated in the League, they were losing against a team like Inter who were in complete disaray at the time. Now don't tell me Arsenal's luck only occurs domestically, because its not about that. Losing against a team like Inter while going undefeated in the League just perplexes me. Why can't they beat a team like Inter if they play in the *Best League in the world* and are undefeated in that respective League? Hmmmmm, I don't know. :groan: The reason for that is simply because the EPL is NOT the best League in the world.

Hmmmm, talking out of my arse again? Like it or not, facts are facts, and once in 17 years is a rather small number. I guess my ARSE knows more facts than some people around here. :groan:

 

[flieeeekke]

you're wrong there andy.

arsenal lost to inter. so what? they played better in that match and were unlucky.

another thing. before securing the title milan only had one loss at home to udinese. didnt see the match but also you cant claim that unidese were worthy winners there. so milan quite easily couldve gone through the league undefeated. after securing scudetto they started playing reserves which resulted another loss. if not for that loss v udine maybe they would have had more ambition and finished undefeated as well. and yet they lost to depor 4-0. so does that make milan shitty team?

and whats so great that arsenal lost to chelsea? two rather equal teams, only one winner. whats the big deal?

 

[Bjerknes]

Because they lost, thats why, both of them one after another. Again, no English teams in the C.L. Final this year. I don't understand why people don't take the facts more seriously. Don't tell me all the English teams have had bad luck for the past 17 seasons in Europe. Even in 1999 with Man U and Bayern Munich, only a lucky last-gasp goal by Man U won them the trophy. Bayern should have won that game, and Man U should have lost. I guess Man U took all the luck of English teams in that one match.

 

[rainhard]

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
I guess Man U took all the luck of English teams in that one match.

:thumb:

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Vilhelmas ] ++
another thing. before securing the title milan only had one loss at home to udinese. didnt see the match but also you cant claim that unidese were worthy winners there. so milan quite easily couldve gone through the league undefeated.

That's different though, Milan has arguably the best squad that they've had in a long time, yet Arsenal are ripping up English defences with 3 players.

 

[nosubstitute959]

Henry, Viera, Pires, Ljunberg, Reyes, Toure, Gilberto, Cole and Edu...........I consider all of those great players

 

[gray]

They're good players, but the contribution of Vieira, Pires and Henry would exceed the contribution of the rest of the squad put together. Bah, we've been over the Arsenal debate too many times, let's give it a rest

 

[Tom]

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++

I guess my ARSE knows more facts than some people around here. :groan:

well I guess its more intelligent than DJ-Anna, if thats any consolation