Turkey (1 Viewer)

Jul 2, 2006
15,072
#41
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that post ^ is considered an actual crime in Turkey, no?
Yes. Main reason why biggest lie ever told keep living after all those years.

Without him the economic boom in Turkey would not be possible and sharia would still be in practice. Ethnic cleansing is a bad thing but as a consequence of this Turkey got a strong government that was able to make reforms. And religion doesn't have a place in politics so here I support him 100%.
Without him and his retarded, backward politics, Turkey would be a world power. Religion have a place in hearts of people so he has decided to put a dagger in heart of a nation when he realized he can't remove it without killing.

He made a strong Turkey by ethnic cleansing and removal of Greeks from Turkey (not a good thing in general but for Turkey is good) and banished religion from politics as it should be. He made Turkey a modern country.
Not only ethnic but also a religious cleansing. Considering whole populace was religious in that time, he sure cleansed a lot. Started with hanging those who don't wear hat. Thousands of murdering have followed. Guy himself was a Jew and mason you wonder why some are calling him ancestor of Turks.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#42
Stoning? in 2011? Give me one example.
Two men, aged 20 and 21, were condemned to be stoned for sodomy in January 2011 following evidence on their mobile phones of them having sex with a 17-year-old. It was reported that the youth was raped, amid claims he was pressured by police to give evidence in exchange for his life. Date of execution was set for 21 January 2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran#Stoning

Whether that is sharia or not you can decide for yourself. As for where people get this impression, it's from the news, yes.
 

jussr

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2011
975
#43
Even if Ataturk tried a religious cleansing (don't buy it) he wasn't very successful Turkey is a muslim nation and will always be. But he succeeded in taking the power from religious fanatics and this is great. Turkey would be a backwards country in economic isolation without him.
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,325
#44
So, you respect him because he used ethnic cleansing and because he fought against religion? Pardon me, but those are two horrible things that can be done by any stupid dictator. I'm talking about real achievments. Let's talk about economy for example.
How is secularising politics a horrible thing?
 
Jul 2, 2006
15,072
#45
Even if Ataturk tried a religious cleansing (don't buy it) he wasn't very successful Turkey is a muslim nation and will always be. But he succeeded in taking the power from religious fanatics and this is great. Turkey would be a backwards country in economic isolation without him.
Economic isolation was his idea. His minions followed it until 80's. They didn't know there is a world outside of borders. Ottoman economy was much more free.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#46
Two men, aged 20 and 21, were condemned to be stoned for sodomy in January 2011 following evidence on their mobile phones of them having sex with a 17-year-old. It was reported that the youth was raped, amid claims he was pressured by police to give evidence in exchange for his life. Date of execution was set for 21 January 2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran#Stoning

Whether that is sharia or not you can decide for yourself. As for where people get this impression, it's from the news, yes.
If you think Taliban and Iran are the places where Sharia is applied, then I understand you. By the way, Saudi Arabia also does not apply Sharia. There is no country that applies Sharia right now.

How is secularising politics a horrible thing?
Shouldn't freedom of belief be respected? Is that what Ataturk did?
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,325
#47
Shouldn't freedom of belief be respected? Is that what Ataturk did?
You're confusing the freedom to believe with a freedom to put that into practice in government. Government is not a belief system, it is a set of institutions designed to allow people to live their lives. It is the highest authority in a country,not God. This is what democracy is all about, the rule of the people by the whim of the majority.

Attaturk was a war criminal.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#48
You're confusing the freedom to believe with a freedom to put that into practice in government. Government is not a belief system, it is a set of institutions designed to allow people to live their lives. It is the highest authority in a country,not God. This is what democracy is all about, the rule of the people by the whim of the majority.

Attaturk was a war criminal.
I know what a government is. Ataturk did not allow normal people to believe in whatever they want.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#49
If you think Taliban and Iran are the places where Sharia is applied, then I understand you. By the way, Saudi Arabia also does not apply Sharia. There is no country that applies Sharia right now.
If there is no country that applies it then why did you ask us to give you an example from 2011? You contradict yourself.
 

phoibos

Junior Member
Feb 8, 2009
306
#50
Ataturk's biggest mistake was the overthrown of the arabic alphabet and setting the latin alphabet as the national alphabet. In the following years the Arabic and Farsi words which have a crucial impact and effect in Ottoman arts,law and science are banned and meaningless and synthetic Turkish words are created. But this is not the way a language evolve. If you throw the Latin originated words from the western european languages there will be barely a language exists. Another side effect of this situation is the termination of the connection between the modern Turkish people and their past. We can't understand a writing which is written a century ago. This is an enormous cultural loss and lost of the cultural base. In my opinion the finest art in the world from the beginning is the sufi poems that I cannot understand. An Englishman can read and enjoy Shakespeare but I cannot even read the legendary Leila and Majnun story from Fuzuli.
 
Jul 2, 2006
15,072
#53
Ataturk's biggest mistake was the overthrown of the arabic alphabet and setting the latin alphabet as the national alphabet. In the following years the Arabic and Farsi words which have a crucial impact and effect in Ottoman arts,law and science are banned and meaningless and synthetic Turkish words are created. But this is not the way a language evolve. If you throw the Latin originated words from the western european languages there will be barely a language exists. Another side effect of this situation is the termination of the connection between the modern Turkish people and their past. We can't understand a writing which is written a century ago. This is an enormous cultural loss and lost of the cultural base. In my opinion the finest art in the world from the beginning is the sufi poems that I cannot understand. An Englishman can read and enjoy Shakespeare but I cannot even read the legendary Leila and Majnun story from Fuzuli.
It was not a mistake. His purpose was making people unable to read Qur'an and their history. Those who can't read history had no choice but believe in ''official history'' written by him.
 

blondu

Grazie Ale
Nov 9, 2006
27,383
#54
didn't knew ataturk done more harm than good..that's why talking and reading opinions from people from that place always helps :)
 

phoibos

Junior Member
Feb 8, 2009
306
#55
Ataturk and İttihat ve Terrakki Fırkası (Unity and Progress Party) in 2nd constitutional Ottoman era developed some ideologies in order to modernize the country with good feelings but they couldn't foresee the world todat. Their applications are natural when you observe the fascist states in europe and notice that ottoman empire is closer to germany than any other countries after WW1 and before and during WW2.
 

Alen

Senior Member
Apr 2, 2007
49,038
#57
Without him and his retarded, backward politics, Turkey would be a world power.
Nope, it wasn't gonna be a world power. The Great Powers controlled everything in the Ottoman Empire. Absolutely everything. They could do whatever they want with it and they were doing whatever they wanted. The opposite interest of the Great Powers, the British fear of Russia controlling the Bosphorus and the big market the Empire was to Germany were what was keeping the Ottoman Empire alive. But the fact is that it could never do something on its own and the Great Powers were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power, with or without Ataturk.
 

phoibos

Junior Member
Feb 8, 2009
306
#58
The Russian Revolution in 1917 saved Turkey's ass. Without saving the eastern borders against Russians the reconquest of Anatolia and Istanbul would have been nothing but a dream.
 
Jul 2, 2006
15,072
#59
Nope, it wasn't gonna be a world power. The Great Powers controlled everything in the Ottoman Empire. Absolutely everything. They could do whatever they want with it and they were doing whatever they wanted. The opposite interest of the Great Powers, the British fear of Russia controlling the Bosphorus and the big market the Empire was to Germany were what was keeping the Ottoman Empire alive. But the fact is that it could never do something on its own and the Great Powers were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power, with or without Ataturk.
They were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power so they put Mustafa Kemal and his minions in charge as jailors, a control mechanism. Today, things are not like in 100 years ago. There are no great powers who are controlling everything and Turkiye have enough potential to become a world power without kemalizm.
 

blondu

Grazie Ale
Nov 9, 2006
27,383
#60
They were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power so they put Mustafa Kemal and his minions in charge as jailors, a control mechanism. Today, things are not like in 100 years ago. There are no great powers who are controlling everything and Turkiye have enough potential to become a world power without kemalizm.
cough SUA and Mother Bear
 

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