Turkey in EU? (1 Viewer)

Dec 27, 2003
1,982
#21
Turkey has been knocking on the EU’s door practically since its inception. Their first official application dates back to 1963, the first of a long series, and we have kept telling them to come back in a decade or two each and every time. So no Erik, we can’t yet again give them an elusive answer by making the shimmering semi promise of a possible but distant membership, because that would simply be treating them like fools. (Economic aid to Turkey is already flowing through Euromed btw, the extended free-trade area on certain products for the non-European Mediterranean countries, coupled with the promise of incentives in exchange for better results as regards their human right records and democracy. It's working quite well). So time has come to say yes or no, and personally I woul say no to Turkey’s membership for a few simple and obvious reasons, regardless of whether it finally meets membership criteria (notably its treatment of the Kurdish minority and the total demise of the army from the political scene)

Turkey is in Asia, not in Europe. Before you say that Cyprus isn't either, let's put things into perspective. Cyprus is a tiny island who objectively doesn't change the EU equilibrium. Turkey however is a 70 million odd inhabitants country with a young, growing population which in a matter of two decades would make it the biggest member state. Were Turkey in the EU today, it'd already have as many MEP’s as Germany. Morocco among others has already made it clear that the day Turkey joins, it will apply for membership as well. This poses the question of what the EU’s objectives and boundaries actually are. Do we want a definite regional entity of 30 odd members with a similar enough social, economic, cultural and religious background as to be able to further integrate, or do we want an ever expanding free-trade area that, given its size and sheer diversity, will never be able to be little more than a UN replica? Should Israel join the EU? Should Russia? India? Do we want expansion to the detriment of cohesion or do we want to optimise the current geopolitical block we have created ? I of course am strongly inclinded to favour the latter option, which is in line with the ideals of the visionary minds (Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman) that launched the idea half a century ago.

I also have to shake my head at Paolo Montero’s assertion that the EU has never worked. Firstly, despite the recent impasse regarding the Constitutional Treaty, which would deserve a thread on its own, the European project has never backtracked. It has had its bad moments and standstills, but it never came back on its steps once it had taken them. And the benefits are for all to see and far, FAR outweigh the few drawbacks. The EU is a unique, unprecedented experiment in the history of civilisation. It has made war impossible between nations that had been tearing each other apart for centuries. It has greatly helped reshape countries that were brutal dictatorships into modern, prosperous democracies in a matter of just one generation (Spain is of course the best example of this). A country like Ireland had a GDP pro capita worth 60% of the EU average before membership. Today, thanks to pertinent aid and development policies (and intelligent use of EU funds by the national gov’t, I wish we could do the same with Italy's South btw) it hs reached 120%. The same impressive leap forward is to be expected from the newly arrived Eastern European members. This, and many, many more things, is what the EU has achieved, and there isn't a single country that hasn't to some degree drawn tangible advantages from membership. Sure, a lot remains to be done, and the functioning of the institutions badly needs to be re-thought, especially after enlargment, and I could name a thousand flaws that need to be adressed, but while it is good that the EU citizens keep a critical attitude towards the EU, I think this newfound anti-EUist bandwagonism pervading Europe is at best ignorant and at worst counterproductive and harmful.
 

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Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#22
++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Turkey has been knocking on the EU’s door practically since its inception. Their first official application dates back to 1963, the first of a long series, and we have kept telling them to come back in a decade or two each and every time. So no Erik, we can’t yet again give them an elusive answer by making the shimmering semi promise of a possible but distant membership, because that would simply be treating them like fools. (Economic aid to Turkey is already flowing through Euromed btw, the extended free-trade area on certain products for the non-European Mediterranean countries, coupled with the promise of incentives in exchange for better results as regards their human right records and democracy. It's working quite well). So time has come to say yes or no, and personally I woul say no to Turkey’s membership for a few simple and obvious reasons, regardless of whether it finally meets membership criteria (notably its treatment of the Kurdish minority and the total demise of the army from the political scene)
I realise we can't leave them in a vague area any longer than we already have if we want the Turks to keep improving on many fronts. I am for a Turkish entry, just not too soon. I think we need to establish a clear agreement with the Turks that will give them the guarantee of entry, but not for another three decades AD MINIMUM. Of course all the other terms have to be met too with regards to the Kurds etc.

Turkey is in Asia, not in Europe. Before you say that Cyprus isn't either, let's put things into perspective. Cyprus is a tiny island who objectively doesn't change the EU equilibrium. Turkey however is a 70 million odd inhabitants country with a young, growing population which in a matter of two decades would make it the biggest member state. Were Turkey in the EU today, it'd already have as many MEP’s as Germany. Morocco among others has already made it clear that the day Turkey joins, it will apply for membership as well. This poses the question of what the EU’s objectives and boundaries actually are. Do we want a definite regional entity of 30 odd members with a similar enough social, economic, cultural and religious background as to be able to further integrate, or do we want an ever expanding free-trade area that, given its size and sheer diversity, will never be able to be little more than a UN replica? Should Israel join the EU? Should Russia? India? Do we want expansion to the detriment of cohesion or do we want to optimise the current geopolitical block we have created ? I of course am strongly inclinded to favour the latter option, which is in line with the ideals of the visionary minds (Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman) that launched the idea half a century ago.
I do not agree with the above comparison at all. For starters: what does the size of Turkey have to do with its entry? A Dutch politician stated the other day he feared 70 million Turks would change Europe's Christian-based cultures: I say that's rubbish. Aren't there 500 million Europeans in the Union right now? Wouldn't they affect Turkey much more than the other way around?

Regarding Turkey being un-European and thus causing the Union to expand 'beyond Europe': again I disagree. Turkey has its roots on the European Continent, West of the Bosporus. Even up until the end of the first World War was the Turkish culture deeply embedded in the European continent:

CLICK TO VIEW MAP - EUROPE IN 1911

Regarding the comparison with Morocco: that country has no such ties. The only straight comparison you can draw between Morocco and Turkey is that they both have a population that is Muslim in majority. The Turks have a European history. Their culture is highly similar to that of neighbouring European nations and their language (Turkish) is a European language that has no relatives amongst the Arabic languages it is surrounded by in the east.

Again: this list doesn't go for Morocco and even Israel can't call upon such a list!

I also have to shake my head at Paolo Montero’s assertion that the EU has never worked. Firstly, despite the recent impasse regarding the Constitutional Treaty, which would deserve a thread on its own, the European project has never backtracked. It has had its bad moments and standstills, but it never came back on its steps once it had taken them. And the benefits are for all to see and far, FAR outweigh the few drawbacks. The EU is a unique, unprecedented experiment in the history of civilisation. It has made war impossible between nations that had been tearing each other apart for centuries. It has greatly helped reshape countries that were brutal dictatorships into modern, prosperous democracies in a matter of just one generation (Spain is of course the best example of this). A country like Ireland had a GDP pro capita worth 60% of the EU average before membership. Today, thanks to pertinent aid and development policies (and intelligent use of EU funds by the national gov’t, I wish we could do the same with Italy's South btw) it hs reached 120%. The same impressive leap forward is to be expected from the newly arrived Eastern European members. This, and many, many more things, is what the EU has achieved, and there isn't a single country that hasn't to some degree drawn tangible advantages from membership.
I completely agree

Sure, a lot remains to be done, and the functioning of the institutions badly needs to be re-thought, especially after enlargment, and I could name a thousand flaws that need to be adressed, but while it is good that the EU citizens keep a critical attitude towards the EU, I think this newfound anti-EUist bandwagonism pervading Europe is at best ignorant and at worst counterproductive and harmful.
Not at all. Criticism from the population and other groups has always been ignored by Brussels, who kept the integration train racing on at high speed. Apparently, harsh anti-EU bandwagonism is the only way to have our concerns heared by the politicians involved.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#23
++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


Ive allways found lemon Curd to be somewhat of a guilty pleasure myself.... Didnt realise that tarts were so important to the shaping of europe either.... Strange world we live in
:dielaugh:

Erik, hows about we ship you some Chavs over? :D
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#26
++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
Only if they wear "Lonsdale" clothes, otherwise it's just a cheap ripoff :D
with fake burberry caps.. pretty please :puppydogeyes: :D

snoop , no idea.. i typed 'chav' on google search
 

nedved34

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2002
3,919
#31
++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++


with fake burberry caps.. pretty please :puppydogeyes: :D

snoop , no idea.. i typed 'chav' on google search
I was shocked in a moment ,I tought it was yours..

I always imagined you are this,or smtng close to :cap:



 

Dan

Back & Quack
Mar 9, 2004
9,290
#33
++ [ originally posted by snoop ] ++


I was shocked in a moment ,I tought it was yours..

I always imagined you are this,or smtng close to :cap:




how do you imagine myself to look?
 

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