"The right to choose your own religion" - by my brother (2 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

Or allow the settlers to be taxed by the Palestinian government. :eyebrows:

Eh, that could work too. Only problem is the new settlers never get on with the Palestinians, so they always clash. You can YT all sorts of videos of settlers throwing rocks at Palestinians while the IDF watches in the background.

 

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[Enron]

Eh, that could work too. Only problem is the new settlers never get on with the Palestinians, so they always clash. You can YT all sorts of videos of settlers throwing rocks at Palestinians while the IDF watches in the background.

IDF wouldn't be involved if it was a separate state. That would be Palestinian police watching in the background.

 

[Martin]

We've soooo stolen Tahir's brother's thunder.

 

[Enron]

I feel bad now.

 

[Bjerknes]

IDF wouldn't be involved if it was a separate state. That would be Palestinian police watching in the background.

Well, you and I both know that Israel has shown no real interest in a two-state solution. And so does Joe Biden.

 

[Enron]

Well, you and I both know that Israel has shown no real interest in a two-state solution. And so does Joe Biden.

Just speculating.

 

[Fred]

You're missing the point. Here's a scenario for you.

It's 2200. Israel has long since conquered every bit of land that was once Palestine. Despite this, the nation of Palestine lives on, without a country. Through 200 years they have been able to maintain their national identity despite living in various countries around the world. They now turn to the UN, pleading that this piece of land where Israel now is "was promised to us by the holy lord ".

Now this may actually happen, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. And in your opinion the UN should tell them to gtfo, right?

Here's the key question. If I ask you in 2200: Does Palestine have the right to exist? What do you say?

Nice, so you aren't answering my questions. No surprises there actually, but i'll try to answer yours/

No the UN should not tell them to fuck off, because the UN sat and said nothing about the whole thing when their land was stolen from them, despite many international treaties that called for respecting the sovereignty of independent states. It was stolen from them despite it being an obvious and blatant violation of international laws, so it is the Palestinians legitimate right, whether in 2 years or 200 years. Israeli's have no legitimate right to the land, not now, not in 200 years.

Just because they stole it and held it for a long time, does not make us forget that they stole it.

Also, i don't think your scenario is likely, 200 years is a long time, shit is going to erupt there much sooner than that.

 

[Martin]

Nice, so you aren't answering my questions. No surprises there actually, but i'll try to answer yours/

No the UN should not tell them to fuck off, because the UN sat and said nothing about the whole thing when their land was stolen from them, despite many international treaties that called for respecting the sovereignty of independent states. It was stolen from them despite it being an obvious and blatant violation of international laws, so it is the Palestinians legitimate right, whether in 2 years or 200 years. Israeli's have no legitimate right to the land, not now, not in 200 years.

Just because they stole it and held it for a long time, does not make us forget that they stole it.

Also, i don't think your scenario is likely, 200 years is a long time, shit is going to erupt there much sooner than that.

Fine, the UN has been resolved, all its treaties are null. There is a UN2 where all treaties have been renegotiated. There is a Palestinian nation without a country. Please advise.

 

[Fred]

Fine, the UN has been resolved, all its treaties are null. There is a UN2 where all treaties have been renegotiated. There is a Palestinian nation without a country. Please advise.

In that case, it will probably be too late for the new UN to do anything about it. Then unfortunately, the Palestinians will have to get their land back in the same way they lost it. By force.

We can debate all day long about this, but in the end, thats whats really going to happen. The Israeli - Palestinian conflict will not end without a war.

 

[Fred]

@Martin,

This part remained unanswered:

The Palestinians were living there. The British occupied their land, the British had no right to give the land to whoever they wanted to give it to, because it wasn't theirs to give in the first place.

 

[Martin]

@Martin,

This part remained unanswered:

Yeah. Basically my point was that there is no way out of the situation without someone getting screwed. If the Jews want a country and you tell them to go to hell it's not just towards them. But if you take half of Palestine and give it to the Jews you screw the Palestinians.

The question is which is the lesser injustice I guess.

But it's not the sole case. The Kurds don't have a country. Half of Spain wants to split into separate countries because they don't feel Spanish. Kosovo recently did just that. Even Palestine seems well on the way.

This problem exists.

So when people say things like "the state of Israel doesn't have the right to exist" I think that's weird, because you're dismissing all these people.

 

[Fred]

Yeah. Basically my point was that there is no way out of the situation without someone getting screwed. If the Jews want a country and you tell them to go to hell it's not just towards them. But if you take half of Palestine and give it to the Jews you screw the Palestinians.

The question is which is the lesser injustice I guess.

But it's not the sole case. The Kurds don't have a country. Half of Spain wants to split into separate countries because they don't feel Spanish. Kosovo recently did just that. Even Palestine seems well on the way.

This problem exists.

All those people you talked about, did not go to someone else's land and took it by force. As far as i'm concerned all of them have much more of a right to an independent country than the Israeli's have.

 

[Martin]

All those people you talked about, did not go to someone else's land and took it by force. As far as i'm concerned all of them have much more of a right to an independent country than the Israeli's have.

But this is an argument based on power again. If the Jews care about Israel so much, why didn't they live there before? Did they just discover their love for that piece of land in the 1940s?

In all likelihood they were driven out of there by force at some earlier stage. So if not for that they would be just like the people in Kosovo, living on that land but without having an independent state.

 

[Fred]

But this is an argument based on power again. If the Jews care about Israel so much, why didn't they live there before? Did they just discover their love for that piece of land in the 1940s?

In all likelihood they were driven out of there by force at some earlier stage. So if not for that they would be just like the people in Kosovo, living on that land but without having an independent state.

Centuries ago, there were no laws or conventions in regard to borders, and respecting nation's sovereignty at the time.

 

[Martin]

Centuries ago, there were no laws or conventions in regard to borders, and respecting nation's sovereignty at the time.

So that makes it okay?

But if you want to play it that way, Israel didn't break any laws in establishing their country did they? Surely you could hardly get a more legally legitimate backing than the UN?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Ok then, Palestine is a nation without a country. If Hamas was strong enough to take over Poland, and it did that, would it be within its rights?

Only if they all wanted to die in a ground war in central Europe with some of the best most efficient armies on the planet.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Nice, so you aren't answering my questions. No surprises there actually, but i'll try to answer yours/

No the UN should not tell them to fuck off, because the UN sat and said nothing about the whole thing when their land was stolen from them, despite many international treaties that called for respecting the sovereignty of independent states. It was stolen from them despite it being an obvious and blatant violation of international laws, so it is the Palestinians legitimate right, whether in 2 years or 200 years. Israeli's have no legitimate right to the land, not now, not in 200 years.

Just because they stole it and held it for a long time, does not make us forget that they stole it.

Also, i don't think your scenario is likely, 200 years is a long time, shit is going to erupt there much sooner than that.

....I don't think the UN was around, that's why they didn't say anything.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Centuries ago, there were no laws or conventions in regard to borders, and respecting nation's sovereignty at the time.

Laws are intangible, they are "rules" which societies agree on, if a majority decides not to listen to them, then it is as if they don't exist.

So if 100 people have a law, and 1000 say, TOO BAD, then it's just that, too bad.

Especially if the 1000 are more liked than the 100.

 

[swag]

@Martin,

This part remained unanswered:

Historical precedence is a lie, though. Every human group can trace their roots to somewhere else until we're all fighting over a small patch of Ethiopia.

 

[Fred]

Laws are intangible, they are "rules" which societies agree on, if a majority decides not to listen to them, then it is as if they don't exist.

So if 100 people have a law, and 1000 say, TOO BAD, then it's just that, too bad.

Especially if the 1000 are more liked than the 100.

Like i said, we could argue forever, in the end this conflict has no solution. Peace is not an option lets not kid ourselves. Sooner or later things are going to erupt, and there will be a full fledged war over "Palestine".

Historical precedence is a lie, though. Every human group can trace their roots to somewhere else until we're all fighting over a small patch of Ethiopia.

Ya, which is why the Israeli's had no right to force Palestinians out of their land in 1948.