The NBA Thread (68 Viewers)

[Osman]

I'm not even INTERESTED in the goat debate. Zero interest. Just making that clear, he wont ever be close to MJ for me (even if he is more complete player).


But I watched that game, and Lebron went from scoring nearly all the points for them too making plays in that same game exactly because it what was needed to win that game and keep momemtum. He got shooters open as much as possible and it worked great. Why is he being chaztized for being a true team player and having a working gameplan there? One of their issues is the fact they barely have teamplay level of GSW in terms of ball movement, or didnt even slow it done and post up as they used to in the past, but just hopeful drives to basket or barely any movement til shot clock winds down and someone shoots a desperate challenged shot that bricks. That was their routine gameplan most of these games. In the one time they keep pace and momentum, and move ball very well, play with alot of effort, largely due to Lebron making plays, its a bad thing? Yeah he fell off the grid in some games and hold that against him, fair and square, but I wouldnt blame him on game 4, its a team play and it got the required win.

 

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[acmilan]

Please tell me when I have ever said Lebron is in the GOAT conversation? I place MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Wilt over him for sure at the moment. I do think he will pass Wilt, Magic, Bird (In large part because the last two had their careers shortened so much by injury problems and in Magic's case HIV). If he retired today he'd be in the same tier as guys like Tim Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq.

But he would literally have to tear up the league, stop coasting the regular season so as to win another MVP or two, win 2-4 more championships and the Finals MVP in each one to even enter the discussion. Which I see as impossible.

Maybe you didn't but Lebron himself sure did - he called himself the GOAT.
I just can;t stand a whiny little bitch like him to act as if the NBA has no history before him.
Constantly coming up short, constantly whining about it and throwing his teammates under the bus, padding his stats in an era of fluff basketball, with literally no competition in the East to speak of ... and then that bitch has the audacity to say he has never played on any super-teams when that;s all he has been doing for the 2nd half of his career.
A bitch like that should not get a free pass and act as if the NBA didn't exist before 2011 - that's my gripe with the whole LeBron BS.

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That ignore didn't last very long

 

[zizinho]

You hate the argument?

It's pretty obvious they improved as a team. They added the league's second best player. Did it show as much in the regular season while they were trying to get their tactics down OT and figuring out how to all play together? Not entirely. For stretches it did.

But it clearly did show while going 16-1 in the playoffs and averaging 10+ pt margin of victory for the entire playoffs.

James isn't absolved of blame for the Cavs loss, the last 6 minutes of game 3 was pathetic, and should have made this a 6 game series. But the guy averaged a triple double, with 33 ppg on 55% shooting in the finals. Him and Kyrie playing out of their minds for large parts of the series was the only reason this wasn't an annihilation in 4 games.

I'd take the Kyrie-James combo over Curry-Durant every day of the week. But not by enough to make up for the clear superiority of numbers 3-8 of the Warriors over the Cavs 3-8 players.

It is obvious that they are better, but that also means they werent as good last year. They beat OKC barely and lost to the Cavs, and they didnt even have to face the Spurs (luckily for them, i should add). That team was great dont get me wrong, but they were one superstar short to be the best team in the league. Did that superstar necessarily have to be the 2nd best player in the world, i dont know, but they did great job adding him.

Kyrie James as a duo is great, they compliment each other perfectly almost. However, i dont think the test is that bad. Id take both Love and Tristan over Zaza/Javale and Green, Klay over JR obviously. The bench for the Warriors is all about Iguodala and Livingston, add West too. Cavs have Jefferson and Korver, those are former allstars, lets not pretend like they are D League players. Id say 1-2 Cavs are better, 3-6 (Klay, Green, Iggy vs Love, JR, TT) Warriors, but after that its pretty even, id even give Cavs slight edge. The team match up well against each other man for man, so what was the difference in these finals? Defense, better system for Warriors, and KD scoring on every single momentum shifting moment in the series (apart from game 4), and winning game 3 with his clutch plays single handely. So if Cavs Fix these things, add a better backup PG (Deron us finished), add another scorer (Melo?) so James can concentrate more energy on defense, improve their team defense and nove the ball better on offense, we are in for a close series next season

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What there is to hate? A great team signed a brilliant player, no brainer its a big improvement. As we saw in these finals. Every time Cavs got a wiff of a momemntum KD was there to signal stfu to them by scoring insanely rapid amount of clutch points that just made it all feel completely hopeless.

How many games do the Warriors win if Durant didn't miss 20 games with an injury this year?

To say that last year's team is somehow better than this year's is crazy.

I dont like the flawness of that argument, not saying Warriors were better last season. A 73 win team almost not making the finals, then losing said finals, without even facing the 2nd best team in the league? Yeah, they were kinda overrated.

 

[Post Ironic]

That ignore didn't last very long

I want to like this New Englander. But the endless trolling about Lebron drives me crazy.

Now the Aaron Rodgers bashing, that's deserved at this point, as he's not played to his potential the last few years.

I hate placing people on ignore. I threaten it all the time, but super empty threats haha. it's really annoying to see all the ignored posts and I'm way too curious.

 

[zizinho]

I'm not even INTERESTED in the goat debate. Zero interest. Just making that clear, he wont ever be close to MJ for me (even if he is more complete player).


But I watched that game, and Lebron went from scoring nearly all the points for them too making plays in that same game exactly because it what was needed to win that game and keep momemtum. He got shooters open as much as possible and it worked great. Why is he being chaztized for being a true team player and having a working gameplan there? One of their issues is the fact they barely have teamplay level of GSW in terms of ball movement, or didnt even slow it done and post up as they used to in the past, but just hopeful drives to basket or barely any movement til shot clock winds down and someone shoots a desperate challenged shot that bricks. That was their routine gameplan most of these games. In the one time they keep pace and momentum, and move ball very well, play with alot of effort, largely due to Lebron making plays, its a bad thing? Yeah he fell off the grid in some games and hold that against him, fair and square, but I wouldnt blame him on game 4, its a team play and it got the required win.

Disagree about this too. What can he do better than MJ? Seriously?

 

[acmilan]

I want to like this New Englander. But the endless trolling about Lebron drives me crazy.

Now the Aaron Rodgers bashing, that's deserved at this point, as he's not played to his potential the last few years.

I hate placing people on ignore. I threaten it all the time, but super empty threats haha. it's really annoying to see all the ignored posts and I'm way too curious.

Finally we agree on LeBron - unlike A-Rod, he is playing to his potential. LeBron is getting to the finals, thanks to no competition whatsoever in the East and time and time again falls short of the title - that is his potential, all 100% of it

1) Rodgers > Brady, stats prove it
2) LeBron > Jordan, stats prove it
my prediction to round out the pattern:
3) the Earth is not round, it's flat ... and PI has the adjusted-for-pace stats to prove it.



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Disagree about this too. What can he do better than MJ? Seriously?

The only thing LeBron has on Jordan is that he can dunk the ball with more force than MJ. Put muscle-mass aside, and that's about it - in every other aspect MJ was the more skillful and complete player.
On paper, LeBron has more size and looks more athletic/muscled-up but somehow MJ was more explosive and there was unbelievable flexibility and plasticity to the way he moved. LeBron, as great and athlete as he may be in his own right, just looks stiff and cumbersome in comparison.

Handling, sheer skill, shooting, attacking the rim, vision, play-making, playing on defense, leadership, rising in the big moments - MJ was tops and he did it in a era of basket where defenses made playing offense and padding career stats that much more difficult.

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MR and RW

[video=twitter;874479270248284163]https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/874479270248284163[/video]

 

[zizinho]

Finally we agree on LeBron - unlike A-Rod, he is playing to his potential. LeBron is getting to the finals, thanks to no competition whatsoever in the East and time and time again falls short of the title - that is his potential, all 100% of it

1) Rodgers > Brady, stats prove it
2) LeBron > Jordan, stats prove it
my prediction to round out the pattern:
3) the Earth is not round, it's flat ... and PI has the adjusted-for-pace stats to prove it.



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The only thing LeBron has on Jordan is that he can dunk the ball with more force than MJ. Put muscle-mass aside, and that's about it - in every other aspect MJ was the more skillful and complete player.
On paper, LeBron has more size and looks more athletic/muscled-up but somehow MJ was more explosive and there was unbelievable flexibility and plasticity to the way he moved. LeBron, as great and athlete as he may be in his own right, just looks stiff and cumbersome in comparison.

Handling, sheer skill, shooting, attacking the rim, vision, play-making, playing on defense, leadership, rising in the big moments - MJ was tops and he did it in a era of basket where defenses made playing offense and padding career stats that much more difficult.

From pure basketball skills, MJ had better handling, footwork, midrange game, post game, FT shooting, defense. One could argue James is better at 3 things, 3pt shooting, passing and rebounding, BUT, Jordan and James 3pt % is nearly the same (James shoots and hits more per game though), and you have that Drexler moment in 92 when they told him Clyde is a better 3pt shooter and he said "hes a better 3pt shooter than i choose to be", then goes on and hits 5 threes in a half, 6 for the game and gave us the famous shrug. Statement. About the passing, Jordan played most of his prime in the triangle offense, which took his numbers down a bit (see how Kobes assist numbers went up in 2012 or 2013 under DAntoni). Before that, and for a brief period when he was running the point for his team, he posted up triple double and double doubles regularly. You also have that 91 finals against Magic, where he was out to make a statement, and averaged 11apg for the series. So id say Bron is a more willing passer, but not necessarily better, or in Michaels words, "hes a better passer than i choose to be". Lastly the rebounding, Jordan spent his career on the perimeter defending PGs and SGs, hard to get rebounds that way dont you think? Bron is a SF, was a Pf on Miami, and defends down on the block a lot in this smallball era. There were times when he was the tallest on the pitch last season vs GSW with them having Green at center . So id say, if they both were going for the rebound, James SHOULD grab them over Jordan because hes bigger and stronger. But I said should instead would, because so much about rebounding is about will, so smaller players can grab them over bigger ones (see Rodman vs Shaq). I say this because i saw Green, a 6'7 PF grab boards that should easily be Brons, so i have my questions about him. Besides, Jordan averaged more offensive rebounds per game than LeBron does.

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Any aspects of the game that im forgetting?

 

[Post Ironic]

From pure basketball skills, MJ had better handling, footwork, midrange game, post game, FT shooting, defense. One could argue James is better at 3 things, 3pt shooting, passing and rebounding, BUT, Jordan and James 3pt % is nearly the same (James shoots and hits more per game though), and you have that Drexler moment in 92 when they told him Clyde is a better 3pt shooter and he said "hes a better 3pt shooter than i choose to be", then goes on and hits 5 threes in a half, 6 for the game and gave us the famous shrug. Statement. About the passing, Jordan played most of his prime in the triangle offense, which took his numbers down a bit (see how Kobes assist numbers went up in 2012 or 2013 under DAntoni). Before that, and for a brief period when he was running the point for his team, he posted up triple double and double doubles regularly. You also have that 91 finals against Magic, where he was out to make a statement, and averaged 11apg for the series. So id say Bron is a more willing passer, but not necessarily better, or in Michaels words, "hes a better passer than i choose to be". Lastly the rebounding, Jordan spent his career on the perimeter defending PGs and SGs, hard to get rebounds that way dont you think? Bron is a SF, was a Pf on Miami, and defends down on the block a lot in this smallball era. There were times when he was the tallest on the pitch last season vs GSW with them having Green at center . So id say, if they both were going for the rebound, James SHOULD grab them over Jordan because hes bigger and stronger. But I said should instead would, because so much about rebounding is about will, so smaller players can grab them over bigger ones (see Rodman vs Shaq). I say this because i saw Green, a 6'7 PF grab boards that should easily be Brons, so i have my questions about him. Besides, Jordan averaged more offensive rebounds per game than LeBron does.

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Any aspects of the game that im forgetting?

Their 3 point % is not at all nearly the same. James shoots .342, Jordan shot .327 from 3. That's a sizeable difference. Jordan also benefitted from playing 3 years with a 1'9" shorter 3-point arc from 94/95-96/97. They made the arc uniform 22' around instead of 23'9 at the top to 22' in the corners. I don't know if you remember it, but the NBA went full retard during the mid-90s as scoring dropped further and further from the 80s levels, and they eventually moved the 3 point arc substantially in. Realized it was a mistake and switched it back for 97-98. Jordan's 3 point percentage dropped from .374 the last season with the short 3 point line to .252 in 97-98 with the normal distance.

Jordan shot .288 from 3 for the rest of his career with the full-size 3 point arc. He was a terrible 3 point shooter. He occasionally got hot from deep. But .288 is a terrible 3-point shooter.

I have no doubt that he would be a better 3-point shooter if he played in the NBA today with the emphasis on the shot. All the same Lebron is very clearly a far superior 3-point shooter for the careers they have had. 34.2% - 28.8% from 3 point is a huge difference.


I do agree about the rebounds. I think Jordan would be a big triple double threat like Westbrook in today's game, except far more efficient scoring and less turnovers. He has that explosiveness to get to rebounds like Westbrook especially with how the ball bounces from all the 3 point misses today.

 

[zizinho]

Their 3 point % is not at all nearly the same. James shoots .342, Jordan shot .327 from 3. That's a sizeable difference. Jordan also benefitted from playing 3 years with a 1'9" shorter 3-point arc from 94/95-96/97. They made the arc uniform 22' around instead of 23'9 at the top to 22' in the corners. I don't know if you remember it, but the NBA went full retard during the mid-90s as scoring dropped further and further from the 80s levels, and they eventually moved the 3 point arc substantially in. Realized it was a mistake and switched it back for 97-98. Jordan's 3 point percentage dropped from .374 the last season with the short 3 point line to .252 in 97-98 with the normal distance.

Jordan shot .288 from 3 for the rest of his career with the full-size 3 point arc. He was a terrible 3 point shooter. He occasionally got hot from deep. But .288 is a terrible 3-point shooter.

I have no doubt that he would be a better 3-point shooter if he played in the NBA today with the emphasis on the shot. All the same Lebron is very clearly a far superior 3-point shooter for the careers they have had. 34.2% - 28.8% from 3 point is a huge difference.


I do agree about the rebounds. I think Jordan would be a big triple double threat like Westbrook in today's game, except far more efficient scoring and less turnovers. He has that explosiveness to get to rebounds like Westbrook especially with how the ball bounces from all the 3 point misses today.

Well, before this season it was almost identical with Bron slightly ahead iirc, James shot a better percentage this season so it went up a bit. Or was it the season before. Dont exactly know but last time i saw their stats it was like that. I constantly forget about that they took the line closer. But also, to be fair to Michael, he started his career in 84, the 3pt line was introduced few years earlier than that. His early 3pt percentages were terrible, and improved a lot later, but also the number of attempts per game was too low compared to even the 2000s, yet alone now, so its too low od a sample size per game to make conclusions. Agree to what you said, if he played now, and knowing the conpetitive freak he is about improving constantly and at everything, he would have developed a 3pt shot as a weapon in his arsenal. I mean, even Westbrook whos not a great shooter developed his 3pt shot compared to his early years, even if he has a bad shot selection at times.

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Now i know what stat i was remembering @Post Ironic, its the playoff 3pt%. Jordan has .332, James has .330, and that including this season where he had .411 on almost 6 attempts. The most Jordan shot on the playoffs was 3.8 in 1993. Would love to see what Jordan is able to do if he worked on his 3pt shooting more, and shot more 3s per game

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On other news, Magic Johnson wants to bring back Lonzo for 2nd Lakers workout. Cant give you a source, because i dont know it

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On other news, Magic Johnson wants to bring back Lonzo for 2nd Lakers workout. Cant give you a source, because i dont know it

 

[Nomuken]

@Osman It was horribly lop sided, not a classic series. Glad it's over. Durant going there ruined NBA for awhile team is too stacked, it's no fun. Unless another team gets just as stacked as they (Golden State). Which will be soon the Lakers hope they ass rape Curry.

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Lebron will take pay cut given his age to Play with Paul George and Lonzo Ball.

 

[KB824]

@Osman It was horribly lop sided, not a classic series. Glad it's over. Durant going there ruined NBA for awhile team is too stacked, it's no fun. Unless another team gets just as stacked as they (Golden State). Which will be soon the Lakers hope they ass rape Curry.

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Lebron will take pay cut given his age to Play with Paul George and Lonzo Ball.

Good luck, because that is all they will have for a team. They would have to trade basically every other young player we have to get that 3rd veteran, and then what does that leave us?

 

[Nomuken]

Yea I see what your saying I won't be delusional...but Magic gots this

 

[KB824]

Yea I see what your saying I won't be delusional...but Magic gots this

Just remember this as you are daydreaming about two players taking up 70 million of the Salary Cap.

Golden State didn't become what they are through free agency and building a super team.

Golden State drafted a Super Team. KD was the icing on the cake.

 

[zizinho]

Just remember this as you are daydreaming about two players taking up 70 million of the Salary Cap.

Golden State didn't become what they are through free agency and building a super team.

Golden State drafted a Super Team. KD was the icing on the cake.

They had Jerry West though. If we let him join the Clippers im gonna be really mad

 

[KB824]

They had Jerry West though. If we let him join the Clippers im gonna be really mad

What is your point?

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How does that change my narrative? Did they not draft those players?

 

[zizinho]

What is your point?

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How does that change my narrative? Did they not draft those players?

i wasnt really making a point, just saw your post as an opportunity to say how great he is as he (helped) build 3 different dynasties. dont want to see the Clippers win a chip, so we must bring him on our board

 

[KB824]

i wasnt really making a point, just saw your post as an opportunity to say how great he is as he (helped) build 3 different dynasties. dont want to see the Clippers win a chip, so we must bring him on our board

#1) West is 80 years old. Any position that he takes, for whomever he works for, will be part time at best
#2) The warriors are built to dominate for the next few years.
#3) The Clippers are trending downward. Their two best players are a 32 year old point guard who has his eyes cast towards texas, and a power forward who has had health issues for the past 2 years. They also have no tradeable assets or young players worth noting.

 

[zizinho]

#1) West is 80 years old. Any position that he takes, for whomever he works for, will be part time at best
#2) The warriors are built to dominate for the next few years.
#3) The Clippers are trending downward. Their two best players are a 32 year old point guard who has his eyes cast towards texas, and a power forward who has had health issues for the past 2 years. They also have no tradeable assets or young players worth noting.

im OK with part time too, his knowledge is too valuable of an asset

the Clippers are gonna enter 2018 free agency with 60M of players under contract (Jordan, Crawford, Rivers, W. Johnson, 3 of which are player options and all tradeable), a summer that has Westbrook, James, George, Anthony, Cousins, Embiid as free agents. i wont write them off, if they can land 2-3 of those

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Most PPG by Duo, NBA Finals History- Won Title
2002 Shaq & Kobe 63.3
1993 Jordan & Pippen 62.2
2017 Durant & Curry 62.0

The Big Four get all the headlines, but Andre Iguodala had the best plus-minus of any Warrior in the Finals (+60)

Warriors: 5th NBA title in franchise history, tying Spurs for 4th-most in NBA history.

Celtics (17), Lakers (16) and Bulls (6)

Stephen Curry joins Karl Malone as the only players with multiple MVP awards, three trips to the Finals and no Finals MVPs to their names

First NBA Finals in which 4 different players averaged at least 25 points per game

Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
Kyrie Irving
LeBron James

Most losses in NBA Finals
Jerry West 33
Elgin Baylor 28
LeBron James 27
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 27

some stats

 

[KB824]

im OK with part time too, his knowledge is too valuable of an asset

the Clippers are gonna enter 2018 free agency with 60M of players under contract (Jordan, Crawford, Rivers, W. Johnson, 3 of which are player options and all tradeable), a summer that has Westbrook, James, George, Anthony, Cousins, Embiid as free agents. i wont write them off, if they can land 2-3 of those

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some stats

Aside from Deandre Jordan, who else that you mentioned are better than any of the young players that the Lakers have right now, not even counting whomever they draft at #2 ? What would make the Clippers after 2018 more attractive than the Lakers? Assuming that the projected trajectories of our young kids carry over into the next season.

And I'm not saying this to say that the Lakers should go nuts in Free Agency. I'm just pointing out that the Clippers scenario doesn't look as attractive as you may think after 2018

 

[zizinho]

Aside from Deandre Jordan, who else that you mentioned are better than any of the young players that the Lakers have right now, not even counting whomever they draft at #2 ? What would make the Clippers after 2018 more attractive than the Lakers? Assuming that the projected trajectories of our young kids carry over into the next season.

And I'm not saying this to say that the Lakers should go nuts in Free Agency. I'm just pointing out that the Clippers scenario doesn't look as attractive as you may think after 2018

but 3/4 of these have player options, 1st we dont even know if they gonna take them? and if they do take them, they all will be on expiring contracts on 6, 12, 14 and 24 million, i think they could trade either of them if they wanted. add James, Westbrook and Melo for example, or if CP3 is still there then without Westbrook, some veterans on paycut (Wade?), few role player and they have a good team. the Lakers are obviously better off as they have a young core (all would be entering or already entered their primes around the same time), and could be in position to be contenders soon with one star signing, but with so much cap space and such a great free agency class in 2018, cant write the Clippers off. if they can add West, id be worried tbh