The heart of the problem ?? (2 Viewers)

[Hydde]

I agree with Tudor and Thuram leaveing the team. we need that money.

About diego, i have my doubts.. i mean...i Know how capable he is , and he will be a superstar in a couple of years... but remember , at his young age , he is a gamble...and more if we will give to him the "strings" of JUventus FC. I think its too much for him. Now that we are in the "kakamania" , it doesnt mean that all the promising youngsters will turn in gold from one day to another ... so we have to be carefull.

I would go for an stablished player like rosicky... who i think is the cheapest of all the playmakers availables. Sadly, it is said that he will got o the premiership.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[A_LAcki]

Very well said. Thats what I was thinking all the time. Thats why I think Diego will go nowhere for now. Get him in one or two years!

 

[Adrian]

i agree about diego to a certain extent, but having others at the club might not put him under pressure as such.

Kaka was teh understudy to Rui costa when he was bought. He was on bench and slowly implemented. now he starts simply cuz he is brilliant.

at juve, we would have nedved still, well i think anyway. we are most likely going to have Jankulovski as well. on top of that, having maresca as well gives us options. We wouldnt be relying on Diego as our main man.

i think diego has the goods to make it big with juve, but that doesnt mean that we sell nedved and buy no one else. Diego will need time to adapt like kaka had at the start of the season.

i personally want Aimar at the club, followed by van der vaart then rosicky. but in the end, a player from brazil will be the cheapest, even if he hasnt got the experience. And lets face it, he'll join another team and become brilliant and we'll be sitting infront our screens crying that we didnt get him.

 

[Hydde]

MMm and what about chiumiento? We have not even tested him. Maybe he can turn into a wonderfull player and we have him under our noses.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++

The midfield is the problem, but the cause of this problem is the same as the cause of the problems to all the other areas on the pitch. That cause is the policy of purchasing players who have performed well for a year or less and using them to replace players who have performed well for years and proven themselves to be class. Appiah, Legro, and Camo all were bought after showing good performances for a season. Prior to that season they were all crap, and now they are returning to that base level of form. I see the same thing shaping up for next year, as we appear to be on the way to purchasing Jankulovski. He fits that same bill. Also, we’ll probably have Brighi and Blasi returning and they both fall into that class too.

What we need is to buy players who have shown that they are reliable for more than just one season. Otherwise, we’ll be left with the same problems that we have this year.

ian i had never seen it like that but its so true

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

++ [ originally posted by Hydde ] ++
MMm and what about chiumiento? We have not even tested him. Maybe he can turn into a wonderfull player and we have him under our noses.

how many times has that Maybe let us down

 

[BarkuZ-yes i am an ass]

What makes you think that VDV would be better player than Diego? Just cuz you watched him more than lil brazilian?
Well,I can say onley that in brazil,defense is more rough than in Holland....so i think Diego fits better.....We can play him as a sub for Ned and wait.....it will pay us big time....anyone who watched him understood....

 

[Jun-hide]

Well, I think many of you guys are too harsh on Moggi..
I dont think one bad season suddenly makes him a bad coach. After all, we won 2 scudetti, and went to CL final last 2years.
Furthermore, selling Zizou, and Pippo and replacing them with Nedved and co. was a materpiece.
In general, he is a very good GM regardless of how we performed this year.
So instead of blaming for every single things that went wrong this season, we need to evaluate critically on what he has done wrong over last couple of years.

Here are some of my conjectures...

1) Not selling Thuram, and Davids.
As I have said previously, (and I did! ) it was unlikely that Thuram, Davids
were unlikely to repeat their performance last season. Instead of going through all the trouble, our management should have sold Davids when the offers came in, and should have actively sought for buyer in Thuram's case. At the end of day, all great players performance, and especially value decline with age. The key is when to know that he has reached his peak. When you have bunch of star players aging...then it is inevitable sign that empire is about to collapse.
With hindsight Moggi would have love to sold these players and reinvested money on young players, as well as balancing books.

2) Not buying defenders.
It was obvious last season that Montero was gone. He was exposed in big matches (I could have done research on relative difference between avg. goal conceded against average teams and compare that with the stats against so called better teams). Iluliano was pretty poor.
Buying Legro wasnt bad idea at the time as he was considered to be a good player back then but real criticism lies in that he didnt buy additional defender, which many of us here thought he should have done.

3) Not buying quality passing midfielder.
Those who watched last season reguarly knows that our passing was never up to the standard. While we managed to beat teams through sheer will and physique, we cannot always do that esepcially when most of the players are over 30. Quality do prevail, note this Moggi.

Some way to move forward.

1) Sell the stars
Moggi should realize with our current core, we are destined to be behind Milan for quite a long time. This means buying some quality players who can form the backbone of the team. Inevitably some of the stars should leave. While I see Thuram, Trezeguet, Tach, Montero, Camo as must leave, Moggi should also consider selling Nedved and Alex. After all, who is going to offer big bucks for srub like Iluliano? The idea is sell the best to raise fund in order to restructure the team.

2) Spend on stars
Yes, Moggi, you should realize that in a competitive transfer market we cannot always get the bargain. Sometimes you have to realize that you have to pay the money to get the goods. And fans want stars as well.
There are plenty of good players around...
Van der Vaart, Diego, Mexes, Hinkel, Rosiky, if you can see them..

3) Build and install culture...
"Spirito Juve"... - my ass to some of the players this year.
We need young players who are willing to work as a team, and hungry for success. In a competitive football market, it is hard to get good value for players, but one can create value by creating a team culture that complement the players. Milan did that to the perfection this year...see Pirlo and Rino.

 

[#10]

cheers ian and graham, never thought u guys would agree wit me

Nice to fans takign a wider view of our team.

 

[Mark]

I think the problem this year taking aside the fact of all the injuries and players getting older is the lack of leadership from Lippi and other stuff I will mention later. Do you guys see Lippi scream at his players to motivate them during a game like Capello, Del Neri and Cosmi? NO. The guy won everything with Juve. I think he laid back at bit too much this year. Ypu only see him when he on camera chewing a gum or smoking his cigar. Don't get me wrong, I consider him the best coach ever but I think it's time for a change in 2005. We have to open a new cycle with a new coach. I think Gigi Del Neri could be our man. He brought Chievo for a couple of year to high levels with a team of unknown players. Chievo was considered the team with the most attractive game. They made a show and they won with nobodies. That's why I think Del Neri could be the one and Lippi should go coach the National team.

To quote the title of the thread "the heart of the problem" starts from the center with Juve. Center of defense and center of midfiled were the big problems this year. Montero, Iuliano, Legrottaglie, Tacchinardi, Appiah and Tudor all struggled due to very poor paly or injuries. Moggi needs to fix that. The only guys in the center that played very well were Ferrara and Maresca. Did you see when Maresca played Juve were in their best form and we all thought we could win everything? It all crumbled when he got injured. Maresca should be a permanent starter with Juve next year. The guy controls the midfield like a commander. He holds the ball when needed, he passes to the wings and can take the ball to the net and shoot. With him you need a guy that is very good defending the midfiled by winning balls like a Davids. Tacchinardi, Blasi and Tudor can do the job. If Del neri gets the coaching job, Perrotta could do it too.

We all know the problems in defense Juve have and I think it's unanimous that they should reJUVEnate it with players like Mexès and cie.

In conclusion, we are JUVE dammit. I hope we don't sell our best players to buy unknown ones. We should build around them to make the team better. If needed, Thuram could give us a little cash but Moggi said that they will all stay(Trez, Neddy, Thuram). Should we believe him? NO, but he says the truth sometimes. Let's strengthen the middle of the defense and midfield and we'll be very competitive in 2005.

FORZA JUVE!!!

 

[Desmond]

++ [ originally posted by Jun-hide ] ++
1) Sell the stars
Moggi should realize with our current core, we are destined to be behind Milan for quite a long time. This means buying some quality players who can form the backbone of the team. Inevitably some of the stars should leave. While I see Thuram, Trezeguet, Tach, Montero, Camo as must leave, Moggi should also consider selling Nedved and Alex. After all, who is going to offer big bucks for srub like Iluliano? The idea is sell the best to raise fund in order to restructure the team.

2) Spend on stars
Yes, Moggi, you should realize that in a competitive transfer market we cannot always get the bargain. Sometimes you have to realize that you have to pay the money to get the goods. And fans want stars as well.
There are plenty of good players around...
Van der Vaart, Diego, Mexes, Hinkel, Rosiky, if you can see them..

i agree.we need to buy stars to replace stars,there's no alternative solution.






well,unless we can change an unknown into a star,which would be really difficult and a large risk.

 

[#10]

we did with zizou...but wheres the next zizou?

 

[Adrian]

yeah in saying all this, Moggi is ignorant towards young stars. when he sold zidane, inzaghi and kovacevic and others that season, look who he brought in. established older stars like nedved, thuram, buffon and salas. he rarely looks at the hottest prospects coming from Ajax or argentina or even brazil for that matter. And i seriously do not know why. he often reverts to uraguyan youngsters thinking that they are going to be super stars when they are not...ie. zalayeta and olivera. Moggi goes for Olivera while a team like Valencia go for Aimar.

this has been the problem the past 3 seasons. Moggi always looks for the cheaper players. Especially the ones in serie A. i'm all for experience in serie A, but that doesnt mean that others abroad cant cut it if you get my drift. ie. chivu and legrottaglie. This season he'll sign ferrari and bonera and ignore Mexes when mexes is clearly better than them.

i think moggi needs to open his mind up to the possibilities of players abroad. if nedved is sold, it wouldnt surprise me if he brought in fiore instead of a younger star. and this is wrong in my opinion.

next season, it could possibly be the best season for transfers. you have playmakers like van der vaart, aimar, riquelme, tevez, diego, rosicky all possibly leaving. you have mexes, ferrari, trabelsi, oddo, lucio as defenders...zlatan, cavenaghi, gilardino as forwards... there is a feast and if moggi plays his cards right in selling our current stars for big money, there is no reason why we couldnt build a young competitive team for the future.

And in the end, as much as all of us here would liek to see maybe 4 or 5 young stars join, they most likely wont. i'm not sure whether its moggi or lippi who think they dont need reinforcements, but both should leave if they persist with the current players. IMO that there are at least 10 players at the club right now who either are finished, not good enough or just sitting on the fence earning their wages from a handful of good games per season.

 

[Jun-hide]

Good post Adrian, I totally agree with what you said.
.

Right now, there are bunch of real stars emerging to replace established old stars... Kaka being one of them.
I believe that Rosiky and VDV are finally ready to become a starter in big leauge whereas Diego and Tevez are not yet finished product.
I am not too keen on striking depertment, though. Zlatan is more fancy than actual production, whereas Gilardino I reckon Pippo Inzaghi mold striker rather than next superstar. What we need is Torres.
The guy is next phenomenom. He has strenght, and technique, sheer class indeed!

Anyway heart of problem, I believe, 1) age 2) lack of quality in defence and midfield 3) lack of desire and hunger

Obvious solution is
1) Buy young players 2) buy defenders and midfielders 3) Buy players with hunger and desire to prove themselves.

This requires
Money - after all, Money rules.

Mark,
hence why I believe we need to sell some of the established stars to make way for younger players. We all want DVD, Robben, Torres and co. playing alongside established stars such as Nedved and Del Piero. However, there are two problems. One is that of financial constraint; the fact is we cannot raise the fund for all those players without selling our stars or afford to them such high payroll. Secondly, there is constraint on number minutes that can be given to players. Young players need minute to improve their game, and established stars such as Tach can block their developments.

The key obviously is to know which established stars to keep and which one to go. We need to keep highly professional players with good temperament in the team such as Ciro. Birindelli, Conte are couple of others. Anyway, despite sceptism in this board on Moggi, I do believe that we "will" make some big headline moves this summer. Moggi isnt dumb, as a matter of fact he is very shrewd GM who manages the club effectively.
I also think that there will be managerial changes in the summer even though I am not too sure on the replacement. I can make a strong case for Didier, but Del Neri is pretty good coach and will make a fine replacement.
Anyway, the reason why I reckon that Moggi will be willing to risk on young players this time is that unlike last time when we need Zizou and Pippo to cash in on, there isnt really a player that can fetch astronomical fee in the summer. Nobody is going to break their bank for Trezeguet and Nedved. Couple this with the fact that we made an operating loss then it is not hard to realize that Moggi will be financially constrained this year.
This means 1) he doesnt have a lot of money to spend on the transfer market 2) he cannot give away lavish wages.
The obvious solution is to buy young talented players because their value will tend to be undervalued than established stars due to high risk they carry in general. In addition, young players dont demand as high wages as some of the stars we have already.
So I expect the team to make some splashing on big young stars such as Mexes, Torres, VDV, and maybe trying to get some roles players through player exchange deal or free transfer. Anyway, I am waiting for Calcio Mercato to start.

 

[bianconero]

++ [ originally posted by John #10 ] ++
we did with zizou...but wheres the next zizou?

Joaquin!

 

[Mark]

++ [ originally posted by Jun-hide ] ++
Mark,
hence why I believe we need to sell some of the established stars to make way for younger players. We all want DVD, Robben, Torres and co. playing alongside established stars such as Nedved and Del Piero. However, there are two problems. One is that of financial constraint; the fact is we cannot raise the fund for all those players without selling our stars or afford to them such high payroll. Secondly, there is constraint on number minutes that can be given to players. Young players need minute to improve their game, and established stars such as Tach can block their developments.

The key obviously is to know which established stars to keep and which one to go. We need to keep highly professional players with good temperament in the team such as Ciro. Birindelli, Conte are couple of others. Anyway, despite sceptism in this board on Moggi, I do believe that we "will" make some big headline moves this summer. Moggi isnt dumb, as a matter of fact he is very shrewd GM who manages the club effectively.
I also think that there will be managerial changes in the summer even though I am not too sure on the replacement. I can make a strong case for Didier, but Del Neri is pretty good coach and will make a fine replacement.
Anyway, the reason why I reckon that Moggi will be willing to risk on young players this time is that unlike last time when we need Zizou and Pippo to cash in on, there isnt really a player that can fetch astronomical fee in the summer. Nobody is going to break their bank for Trezeguet and Nedved. Couple this with the fact that we made an operating loss then it is not hard to realize that Moggi will be financially constrained this year.
This means 1) he doesnt have a lot of money to spend on the transfer market 2) he cannot give away lavish wages.
The obvious solution is to buy young talented players because their value will tend to be undervalued than established stars due to high risk they carry in general. In addition, young players dont demand as high wages as some of the stars we have already.
So I expect the team to make some splashing on big young stars such as Mexes, Torres, VDV, and maybe trying to get some roles players through player exchange deal or free transfer. Anyway, I am waiting for Calcio Mercato to start.

I agree but if Agnelli gets tired of losing every year in Europe he could take out some $$$ without touching our best players.

 

[bianconero]

Goalkeepers
- Gianluigi Buffon (Ita) GK 26 06/2006 2001 Parma (Ita) £32.6m

Defenders
- Gianluca Pessotto (Ita) FB 33 06/2005 - -
- Ciro Ferrara (Ita) CD 37 06/2005 - -
- Mark Iuliano (Ita) CD 30 - - -
- Nicola Legrottaglie (Ita) CD 27 06/2008 2003 Chievo (Ita) £4.95m
- Paolo Montero (Uru) CD 32 06/2004 - -
- Lilian Thuram (Fra) CD 32 06/2006 2001 Parma (Ita) £22m
- Igor Tudor (Cro) CD 25 - - -
- Alessandro Birindelli (Ita) DF 29 06/2004 - -

Midfielders
- Stephen Appiah (Gha) CM 23 - 2003 Parma (Ita) £1.39m
- Marco Brighi (Ita) CM 21 - - -
- Enzo Maresca (Ita) CM 24 06/2005 2003 Verona (Ita) £1.78m
- Alessio Tacchinardi (Ita) CM 28 - 1994 Atalanta (Ita) £?
- Mauro Camoranesi (Ita) MF 27 - 2003 Verona (Ita) £3.43m
- Antonio Conte (Ita) MF 34 06/2004 - -
- Pavel Nedved (Cze) MF 31 06/2006 2001 Lazio (Ita) £25.5m
- Ruben Olivera (Uru) MF 20 06/2006 - -
- Gianluca Zambrotta (Ita) MF 27 06/2005 - -

Forwards
- Fabrizio Miccoli (Ita) FW 24 06/2004 - -
- Marco Di Vaio (Ita) ST 27 06/2006 2003 Parma (Ita) £9.62m
- David Trezeguet (Fra) ST 26 06/2005 2000 Monaco (Fra) £14m
10 Alessandro Del Piero (Ita) ST 29 06/2008 1993 Padova (Ita) £?

Average age of players: 28 years

from this we can see, that apart from the year when we had the money from zizou/inzaghi monies, we have shopped firmly in the bargin basement stores. the one exception being the player who would find it difficult to hit the back-side of a cow with a banjo; Di vio.

too old and too average gets you an oh too obvious result; medicority. Why can't Moggi see that then. Too many dinners with Perez I fear.

 

[Layce Erayce]

avg age of our defence: 30-something.

anyone consider juventus FC's financial problem into the equation?

 

[bianconero]

Well, they are not going to get any better without successful results on the playing field, are they?

Maybe we need a rethink in the long term insted of the short...

 

[Jun-hide]

Pretty good analysis Biaconero, and good effort to gather some statistics. . I am way too lazy to get some empirical evidence to back up some theoretical abstract ( if you call this one! ). I just love the use of logic!!!. However some info are incorrect ).

Anyway here is my conjecture to why Moggi has been looking for bargain basement stores in last couple of years.

1) He knew that he had a core of players who can win championship so he focused on getting role players, and high risk young stars who might turn out to be the "surprise".

2) Recently we have developed a number of talented young players in our youth ranks. This probably due to highly developed network and prestige and power of Juve in Italia. This meant that Moggi had couple of young stars who he can use to make couple of deals without sacrificing the cash.
Of couse only Italian teams are willing to take on young Juve starlets because 1) they have more info. on such players than foreign teams and 2) there is no need for young players to adjust to new environment, which includes language, food and lifestyle, not to mention playing culture.
This is prime reason why I believe Moggi got Legro and not Chivu because while Chievo was willing to take on youngsters like Sculli, Paro, and Gastadello, Ajax just wanted hard cash.

Anyway, I am pretty sure that the problem and situation facing the team now is different to that we faced when we sold Zizou and Pippo, and that is why I think Moggi might venture into foreign markets.
1) Thuram, Nedved, Salas, at the time were world superstars and back then majority of superstars played in Serie A. So why look outside when you have the best in your backgarden? Now Serie A doesnt quite have that monopoly on top stars.
2) Milan set the standard high. We got a lot of catch up to do whereas back in Ancelloti days we werent that inferior to Roma or Lazio. We need quality ASAP.
3) As soccer has become a world sport, the young prospects are not entirely limited to Italia, Brazil, or France. Broad perspectives are needed.

Anyway, the key is balancing Italian players' desire and heart for the club with stranieri's quality and professionalism. Buffon, Maresca, Chiu, Miccoli, Zambro is pretty good players to start with.