The Financial Situation (63 Viewers)

[PedroFlu]

Vidal, Pogba, Barzagli, Coman, Tevez, Llorente, Pirlo, Asamoah, Evra, Lichtensteiner....yes, Marotta has done nothing compared to Sabatini.

Marotta definitely did some amazing transfers, I didn't say Sabatini's work was better than his.

He had many great transfers along with some shitty ones. I would have to do a little research on Sabatini's last 3 mercatos so we can compare it, but I'm too lazy for that.

 

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[Hust]

Marotta definitely did some amazing transfers, I didn't say Sabatini's work was better than his.

He had many great transfers along with some shitty ones. I would have to do a little research on Sabatini's last 3 mercatos so we can compare it, but I'm too lazy for that.

You should, you are quite good at that.

I'd be curious to see which one had more "flops" and the overall cost to the club(s). I'd think Roma have less room for error where Juventus can afford to take slightly more costly risks.

 

[TheLaz]

Fully agreed.

If we ever will actually become a top European club again, it's inevitable that Serie A will have to improve as a whole.

Right now we are among the top 2nd tier of Europe, with the likes of Atletico Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, Tottenham, maybe Arsenal, Porto, Benfica, Lyon.

1st tier is Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Man Utd (in terms of financial potential - what they lack is good decision makers atm).
Bottom 1st tier is new richies PSG, Chelsea, Man City.

And top 2nd tier will probably be our ceilling for a long time. However we have more potential than the 2nd tier clubs to ascend to the 1st tiers without a magnate, given our wonderful tradition in Italy, being the top club and most popular club of our country, with a bunch of some of best players all time being our legends..

But that's where we lie now. Anyway, we've seen 2nd Euro tier clubs like Dortmund and Atletico make amazing runs in Europe. It is possible for us if the board and sports director make an outstanding job with the resources we have. I mean, the quality of the work Dortmund and Atletico are doing is really really amazing.

Unfortunately, Marotta clearly doesn't look to be the one capable of doing this.

We have a huge upside though. With the right men making decisions, we can achieve the 1st tier again. But we need the best possible human resources in terms of scouting, football assessment, etc.

We simply won't reach the 1st tier financially speaking for the foreseeable future. The only way to compete with them is doing a world class job in terms of recruiting playeres, training, environment, coaching staff, scouting staff, etc. Marotta is clearly not the man to lead us to this place, even though he has his huge chunk of responsibility in bringing the club forward in the past 3 years.

But IMO he's already shown he won't be able to give the next step.

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My hope is that Agnelli doesn't get too attached to him and, with the increase in our revenues to happen in one year, that he finds another guy who can do a truly world class job at that position.

We should not hope that our revenues will continue to grow. I mean, from next year on, we may add 50M, which is a lot. But after that we will certainly stagnate. Our stadium and fan base in Turin don't give us many options. We already have a good TV deal. Our only hope is increasing revenue from merchandising.

The Juventus brand need to be more popular around the world. ADIDAS will probably help in this, since they have a big 5 clubs in the world for which they give special attention and try to expand the brand as much as possible. Flamengo is recently one of these, and they are executing a hell of a marketing plan for them.

So, we will basically rely on sportive performance in CL. That's basically it. The CL gained an enourmous proportion in the world. Here in Brazil people talk more about CL than the national league sometimes. It's on the open channels, non payed TV. There are Brazilians who support CL teams. They buy the EPL hype.

So we need an aggressive marketing from ADIDAS abroad AND keep competing in CL year after year, playing with the best and actually having a shot at reaching the final. We need this IN ORDER TO increase our revenues, it's not the contrary. So only with near perfect management we will reach this performance level.

This is not the 70s and 80s anymore. No company will give us money like Gianni used to do. Things are much more controled now, there are far more interests. In the past, the company belonged only to the Agnelli's. Gianni could actually do whatever he wanted with his money. Now the company belongs not only to the Agnellis, but to all shareholders. There are thousands of them. If they are unsatisfied, they will want to sell their stocks and the company's value will drop. Thus we can't expect to have a passionate godfather who will pump money in anymore, unless an oil arabic magnate buys us.

Thus my only hope is Andrea Agnelli. I still consider him to be a good willed, young, ambitious smart man who is passionate about Juve. We have to remember this before we weep about Elkann, who runs Exxor in a very good way, and in the most professional way. The guy simply can't do favours to Juventus, Exxor is not his company, it's the shareholders company.

If Andrea fails to see and perceive this, we are screwed. We can't continue to look to Italy. We have to compare ourselves to the biggest clubs in the world, the 1st tier. And then be humble and accept we are in the 2nd tier now, in terms of revenues and prestige. We have to look to clubs like Dortmund and Atletico and learn with what they do. We have to be ambitious.

We have to accept that we no longer stand in the prestigious position we've alwas stood till 10 years ago, throughout most of our history. We are not there anymore. We belong there, but to come back it will be a huge challenge and task, given the enourmous financial abysm between us and the top 8 clubs in the world. And this abysm will only be overcame with top world class quality management.

Excellent post mate!

I have some disagrees as well but what id like to point out is the urge to continue this trend of signing promising youngsters on the cheap. If Coman can develop into a class player in the shortage of two years we'd do another Pogba transfer. These kind of young players with WC potential can also be the source of growth in many other aspects then the performance on the pitch. Young fans from all over the world - the future generation - is looking towards modern football and choose a club to support based on the style of football they see. Imagine the fanbase Barcelona got from the golden Tiki Taka era.

When I look at children in the kindergarden i see just as many Chelsea shirts as I see United shirts. In the future Chelsea will be as big a football club as Man United. I believe the transfer activities are very important to this development; Chelsea do sign some of the most interesting young players in the world. Players like Hazard is what makes young boys and girls support Chelsea - not Lampard and Terry. In our case, Pogba, is inarguably the biggest brand in Juventus. Players with this kind of flair is what we need to "sign" the new generation of supporters. This is also why we shouldn't waste our bench with mediocre players who can't even do a rabona in training..

 

[Mister]

Turnover of the European clubs from 2004-2005 season to 2012-2013 - via VS

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Italian clubs :

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Comparison with Real Madrid :

 

[JuveJay]

There in print, it took us 7 years to make the transition it should have in 1, thanks to Calciopoli.

 

[Ronn]

Comparison with Real Madrid :

What is the reason for this huge gap in match day revenue? Bernabeu is almost twice as big as Juventus Stadium, but revenue is 5 times our match day revenue?

 

[Vlad]

Prices

 

[TheLaz]

Real Madrid only grows bigger from continuing to set trasnfer records ala Ronaldo, Bale, James.. The brand value from the news generated is reaching out to the world..

 

[j0ker]

At least we got the calciopoli excuse for the revenue stagnation, but wtf have Milan been doing?

 

[Vlad]

Berlusconi decided to bring them back to mediocrity where he found them in the 80es. Selling best players year after year and replacing them with rubbish.

 

[PedroFlu]

Excellent post mate!

I have some disagrees as well but what id like to point out is the urge to continue this trend of signing promising youngsters on the cheap. If Coman can develop into a class player in the shortage of two years we'd do another Pogba transfer. These kind of young players with WC potential can also be the source of growth in many other aspects then the performance on the pitch. Young fans from all over the world - the future generation - is looking towards modern football and choose a club to support based on the style of football they see. Imagine the fanbase Barcelona got from the golden Tiki Taka era.

When I look at children in the kindergarden i see just as many Chelsea shirts as I see United shirts. In the future Chelsea will be as big a football club as Man United. I believe the transfer activities are very important to this development; Chelsea do sign some of the most interesting young players in the world. Players like Hazard is what makes young boys and girls support Chelsea - not Lampard and Terry. In our case, Pogba, is inarguably the biggest brand in Juventus. Players with this kind of flair is what we need to "sign" the new generation of supporters. This is also why we shouldn't waste our bench with mediocre players who can't even do a rabona in training..

Thanks

I just feel that basically the men in charge of football decisions, specially Marotta, Agnelli and Paratici, they already did an outsdanding job in the past 3 years. They were right on spot when Conte was hired, who, along with the Stadium and the brillance of Pirlo in his first season, really brought Juventus out of its misery, its worst moment in a centenary history and gave back the confidence, the pride and the dominance of Italian football.

Now that status within Italy is quickly regained, an even more difficult task: regaining the status in Europe, by performing in CL and actually competing with the big boys. Conte couldn't do it, even though IMO he had material to do it (I'm not talking about winning it or necessarily achieveing the final, but playing attractive football which will call worldwide fans attention and winning relevant games against the likes of Madrid etc).

Actually, putting things in perspective, it was partially done in the first opportunity, beating Chelsea and reaching quarters, even though we couldn't even put a decent fight against Bayern (but not even Barcelona could do it).

Last season was a huge disappointment in Europe.

But all things considered, now comes the even harder task of recovering respect from European teams and worldwide fans. We cannot fail again in Europe like we did last season. The task is really hard, but we have some WC players who are enough to give the likes of Madrid and Bayern a hard time, if our team plays the correct way, with the likes of Pogba, Vidal, Asamoah, Tevez, Llorente. We really need to adapt the game to Europe.

It's up to Allegri now, and to Marotta in the coming years to provide enough talent to do it. It's pretty hard, but definitely far from being impossible. Atletico's and Dortmund's budget were considerably lower than ours when they achieved the finals and conquered so many fans around the world, building up the brand and thus growing up as a club and developing their merchandising potential, the most important aspect of revenue that sets us apart from the big boys.

I don't actually thing Marotta is the right man to pull it off, but I hope I'm wrong. He came from a provincian Sampdoria and has been developing along with Juve, more and more opening his eyes to young talent outside of Europe. We can't miss on signings where we spend, while Madrid, United and others clearly can.

Let's wait and see. Juve has to remain ambitious, we cannot settle for Italy dominance. We'll have an even harder task, since Serie A clubs and federation still seem to be a looong way from regaining at least part of its status. Just can't see the Milanese clubs recovering in the next 3 or 5 years, unless some oil guys buy Milan.

At the same time, with Milan's huge decline, we have in front of us a golden opportunity to take their place as the most marketeable Italian team in the world. We must do well in Europe so even Serie A will become more actractive and respected overseas. I also think Roma should do pretty well, since they play a very modern European style. Also does Napoli, who actually did pretty well last years in CL. They were incredibly unlucky getting such a hard group stage.

 

[Hust]

Only way we can do more marketing than them is to win the CL. They have won it more recently and had more success than us in the CL, that's why.

We need 2-3 years of continual success in Europe.

 

[PedroFlu]

Turnover of the European clubs from 2004-2005 season to 2012-2013 - via VS

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Italian clubs :

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Comparison with Real Madrid :

Great post!

Even though it was inevitable that the difference would grow a lot from Madrid, Barcelona, United, Bayern from the rest (plus oil clubs like City, Chelsea and PSG), Calciopoli reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally fucked us right in the ass.

Moratti absolutely destroyed us. That's why I always hate Inter with all my strenght. They tried to destroy us in an unfair way, out of the pitch, and they did it. They've put us in the worst 5 year span of our entire history. We had huge sponsorship deals agreed. It was a huuuuuge setback, from which we are still recovering.

And they used this to even dominate in Italy and win a treble. Motherfuckers. They really set us back. But we are back and are already much bigger than them lol. Hope ET makes them burn in fucking hell.

 

[Ronn]

Prices

So 25% of Spain are unemployed, yet they afford to pay way more than Italians pay?

 

[PedroFlu]

Only way we can do more marketing than them is to win the CL. They have won it more recently and had more success than us in the CL, that's why.

We need 2-3 years of continual success in Europe.

I don't think it's even a matter of winning the CL. It's a matter of having relevance in the European scenarium, actually having real possibilities to achieve semi finals every year, while they suck hard in Serie A. Milan will remain out of CL as long as Berlusconi is there fucking them in the ass. That's why I see it as a very good opportunity, because they are an incredibly poor ran club. It almost seems like Berlusconi and Galliani are doing it on purpose, it's really impressive.

But after this shitstorm is gone, I believe Milan is a very attractive club to oil guys, since they have "glamour", are some sort of feel good likeable club outside Italy, have a lot of history in CL. My guess is, after they reach the bottom of destruction by Berlusconi, some millionaire will come calling, they'll be forced to sell the club and they will be back in game from one year to another.

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Berlusconi decided to bring them back to mediocrity where he found them in the 80es. Selling best players year after year and replacing them with rubbish.

Yes. I don't recall an owner clearly destroying a club like he's been doing it along with Galliani in the past few years. It's really impressive. I have no idea how fans put up with this shit. I guess Berlusconi still enjoys a lot of gratitude from rescuing from hell in the 80s and building dynasties, which led the team to win like 4 or 5 CLs in the past 25 yrs.

 

[Hust]

I don't think it's even a matter of winning the CL. It's a matter of having relevance in the European scenarium, actually having real possibilities to achieve semi finals every year, while they suck hard in Serie A. Milan will remain out of CL as long as Berlusconi is there fucking them in the ass. That's why I see it as a very good opportunity, because they are an incredibly poor ran club. It almost seems like Berlusconi and Galliani are doing it on purpose, it's really impressive.

But after this shitstorm is gone, I believe Milan is a very attractive club to oil guys, since they have "glamour", are some sort of feel good likeable club outside Italy, have a lot of history in CL. My guess is, after they reach the bottom of destruction by Berlusconi, some millionaire will come calling, they'll be forced to sell the club and they will be back in game from one year to another.

We should be at a point where we only need to be worrying about Roma. Napoli, Milan & Inter I don't see posing much of a threat. When Italy was a 3 horse race it was harder but now we should be emphasizing Europe but not losing focus on the League. That's what the depth is for...but fuckers here don't seem to understand its hard to win games while resting top players when you have the likes of Padoin and Peluso getting games.

 

[Ronn]

I don't think it's even a matter of winning the CL. It's a matter of having relevance in the European scenarium, actually having real possibilities to achieve semi finals every year, while they suck hard in Serie A. Milan will remain out of CL as long as Berlusconi is there $#@!ing them in the ass. That's why I see it as a very good opportunity, because they are an incredibly poor ran club. It almost seems like Berlusconi and Galliani are doing it on purpose, it's really impressive.

But after this $#@!storm is gone, I believe Milan is a very attractive club to oil guys, since they have "glamour", are some sort of feel good likeable club outside Italy, have a lot of history in CL. My guess is, after they reach the bottom of destruction by Berlusconi, some millionaire will come calling, they'll be forced to sell the club and they will be back in game from one year to another.

Big oil in Italy would be interesting. Not sure why it has not happened already. That would open the floodgates of outside money.

 

[Hust]

Big oil in Italy would be interesting. Not sure why it has not happened already. That would open the floodgates of outside money.

Italian's are too proud to open their league to non-italian influence.

You could almost turn it back to the racism issue.

 

[PedroFlu]

Regarding Madrid and Barcelona revenues, I wonder how much will their revenue continue to increase crazily based on merchandising.

I mean, TV rights in Spain should be more fair, it shouldn't increase that much in the coming years. Also revenue from stadium and membership has probably reached its ceilling.

I wonder if isn't there a top ceilling for merchandising revenues for these clubs, given the economic crisis in Europe and in the world in general. I don't know, I just can't see a club making 600M revenue in the next 5 or 7 years (which would only be natural if their revenues were to continue to grow crazily like it did in the past years).

I'm sure their revenue will continue to increase, but at much lower rates, while we still have a lot o upping to do.

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Big oil in Italy would be interesting. Not sure why it has not happened already. That would open the floodgates of outside money.

I think one of main reasons are very high tax rates. I think Italy has if not the highest, one of the highest in the world when it comes to football investment, players salaries, etc.

Also, their possibilites of getting back at least part of the money invested would be zero, once clubs don't even own stadiums. It would be literally money donation, with no hopes of some coming back.

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We should be at a point where we only need to be worrying about Roma. Napoli, Milan & Inter I don't see posing much of a threat. When Italy was a 3 horse race it was harder but now we should be emphasizing Europe but not losing focus on the League. That's what the depth is for...but $#@!ers here don't seem to understand its hard to win games while resting top players when you have the likes of Padoin and Peluso getting games.

Yes. But I think this will change this season due to a lot of strong factors:

- first team is getting older and older, and in january 8 of 11 will be 30 or more;
- the squad is clearly improved;
- the objective of winning Serie A 3 times was clearly a priority before, and now winning Serie A again is not an obsession like past years;
- the focus is admitedly by Agnelli to perform well in Europe;
- Conte was, while an amazing leader, a very stubborn guy when it comes to trusting squad players. I'm positive, while without proof, that signings of guys like Padoin and Peluso were under his request (since he actually trained these guys before), he knew what they would deliver, and couldn't count on them anyways, not even to almost meaningless Serie A games. Conte was bad in rotating the squad, he had blind confidence in his starting guys and used them till they got destroyed.
- I tend to think Allegri is more used to rotate players, as I recall he did it normally at Milan.

 

[Ronn]

I think one of main reasons are very high tax rates. I think Italy has if not the highest, one of the highest in the world when it comes to football investment, players salaries, etc.

Also, their possibilites of getting back at least part of the money invested would be zero, once clubs don't even own stadiums. It would be literally money donation, with no hopes of some coming back.

Agreed. In a nutshell, bureaucracy is so bad that foreign investment won't get much in return. Yet I wonder why Thohir was crazy enough to dive into this shit.