The current affairs thread (16 Viewers)

[mikhail]

...i think there is pretty conclusive evidence that jesus existed.

Easy to say. I'll play devil's advocate here. What evidence? I've read up on this myself a little, and I've never seen anything other than umpteenth-hand accounts written in 70AD or later.

 

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[Gill_juve]

Easy to say. I'll play devil's advocate here. What evidence? I've read up on this myself a little, and I've never seen anything other than umpteenth-hand accounts written in 70AD or later.

yeh true but there isnt conclusive evidence saying he didnt exist and it isnt patchy.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

well there is so many different accoutns from many different sources, roman, jew, arab etc. and as for your examples, why do you always chose the weakest ones?

accounts mean f*ck all though, like i said its been past down by words and mouth over the centuries, even if he did exist do you really believe all those miracles he performed? thats what i finder harder to beleive

 

[mikhail]

yeh true but there isnt conclusive evidence saying he didnt exist and it isnt patchy.

It's awful practice for a historian, and the burden of proof is always on the claimant. I think it's maybe sufficient to tentatively state that there was such a person, but it's a long, long way from "conclusive evidence".

 

[Seven]

thats what i said, but seven disguarded that

Oh dear.

Emperor Constantine united the Roman Empire under christian flags if you must call it that yes. He fought with christian symbols. True, true. So yes, at one stage the Roman Empire was Christian. I never stated otherwise.

Your problem however is that the Roman Empire was christian in the 4th century AC. Now Christianity was born in the 1st century AC. Between the 1st and the 4th lie 300 years. That's quite the gap, isn't it?

Now this is what you are suggesting: christianity, you say, was created as an excuse to hate the Jews. The Romans, you say, might have helped, because they weren't fond of Jews. So this is your hypothesis:

The Romans, who emphatically persecuted christians at the time, have helped christianity, which is only an excuse to hate Jews, to rise because both Romans and christians hated Jews.

Hm.

 

[Seven]

It's awful practice for a historian, and the burden of proof is always on the claimant. I think it's maybe sufficient to tentatively state that there was such a person, but it's a long, long way from "conclusive evidence".

However, there is conclusive evidence of what I'm saying. Thus the argument "badass" is trying to pull is false.

 

[rounder]

evidence like what? the turin shroud? mel gibson's influences?

No , history says that ... It's mentioned in tons of historical , religious books .. Just like how history talks about The time of the assyrians , the romans ...etc..

This is not any different , Jesus is part of history , there's no denying that . Is it made up ? Well , you wouldn't doubt anything in history except for the existence of christ which has resulted in a religion that dislikes yours .
Maybe you have a biased opinion .

 

[mikhail]

However, there is conclusive evidence of what I'm saying. Thus the argument "badass" is trying to pull is false.

If you mean this,
"if you didnt happen to know christianity was later accepted as the main religion throughout the roman empire, so who's to say the books wern't re written then to hate the jews?"
then I agree. The evidence exists in earlier copies of the works that made up the Bible. They show no evidence of such tampering, so this would appear to be idle speculation.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

Oh dear.

Emperor Constantine united the Roman Empire under christian flags if you must call it that yes. He fought with christian symbols. True, true. So yes, at one stage the Roman Empire was Christian. I never stated otherwise.

Your problem however is that the Roman Empire was christian in the 4th century AC. Now Christianity was born in the 1st century AC. Between the 1st and the 4th lie 300 years. That's quite the gap, isn't it?

Now this is what you are suggesting: christianity, you say, was created as an excuse to hate the Jews. The Romans, you say, might have helped, because they weren't fond of Jews. So this is your hypothesis:

The Romans, who emphatically persecuted christians at the time, have helped christianity, which is only an excuse to hate Jews, to rise because both Romans and christians hated Jews.

Hm.

like i said christianity was LATER accepted. between that gap they hate towards christians was probably still around as roman gods were seen as the dominant faith, but what im saying is that after its acceptance that over the centuries the books and the peoples perceptions of understandings have changed, i doubt very much the christianity as we know it now was anything like the same as back in the first century.

 

[Seven]

No , history says that ... It's mentioned in tons of historical , religious books .. Just like how history talks about The time of the assyrians , the romans ...etc..

This is not any different , Jesus is part of history , there's no denying that . Is it made up ? Well , you wouldn't doubt anything in history except for the existence of christ which has resulted in a religion that dislikes yours .
Maybe you have a biased opinion .

Jesus may very well have existed. It is not proven though. And it's not really all that important. What is important is that christianity originates from the first century AC.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

If you mean this,
"if you didnt happen to know christianity was later accepted as the main religion throughout the roman empire, so who's to say the books wern't re written then to hate the jews?"
then I agree. The evidence exists in earlier copies of the works that made up the Bible. They show no evidence of such tampering, so this would appear to be idle speculation.

that again is exactly what im saying

 

[mikhail]

...This is not any different , Jesus is part of history , there's no denying that . Is it made up ? Well , you wouldn't doubt anything in history except for the existence of christ which has resulted in a religion that dislikes yours .
Maybe you have a biased opinion .

There are no facts there. All you have is opinion. Nothing is "part of history" unless we have evidence for it.

 

[mikhail]

that again is exactly what im saying

You mean the quote you highlighted? That was of you. Read my post again. I disagree with you.

 

[Seven]

like i said christianity was LATER accepted. between that gap they hate towards christians was probably still around as roman gods were seen as the dominant faith, but what im saying is that after its acceptance that over the centuries the books and the peoples perceptions of understandings have changed, i doubt very much the christianity as we know it now was anything like the same as back in the first century.

So what does that have to do with christianity being created as an excuse to hate Jews? Absolutely nothing.

Christianity led to hating Jews in the Middle Ages. No doubt about that. But it was by no means created to hate Jews.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

Jesus may very well have existed. It is not proven though. And it's not really all that important. What is important is that christianity originates from the first century AC.

on the beliefs and sayings of jesus himself, so his existance was important, because if he didnt then christianity is nothing but a farse

 

[mikhail]

on the beliefs and sayings of jesus himself, so his existance was important, because if he didnt then christianity is nothing but a farse

I'm slightly confused here. What are you trying to demonstrate?

 

[Badass J Elkann]

You mean the quote you highlighted? That was of you. Read my post again. I disagree with you.

i think u edited it after you posted. look no offense guys but this is gona get ugly so im gona leave this to the rest of you to discuss, and debate

 

[Seven]

If you mean this,
"if you didnt happen to know christianity was later accepted as the main religion throughout the roman empire, so who's to say the books wern't re written then to hate the jews?"
then I agree. The evidence exists in earlier copies of the works that made up the Bible. They show no evidence of such tampering, so this would appear to be idle speculation.

Yes, that's what I mean. It's fairly certain christianity wasn't created for such a goal. The Romans, if anything, were wary of christians till the beginning of the fourth century and thus would never have formed a union with christians to spread a religion which was created to hate Jews. The hypothesis badass is putting forward is ludicrous to say the least.

on the beliefs and sayings of jesus himself, so his existance was important, because if he didnt then christianity is nothing but a farse

What Jesus said is important to christians. Jesus himself matters less to most christians. Some believe he was a historical figure, others believe he wasn't. I'm sorry to say this mate, but you simply don't know what christianity is about nor do you know it's historical roots nor do you seem to have the slightest idea about the Roman Empire and its attitude towards religion.

i think u edited it after you posted. look no offense guys but this is gona get ugly so im gona leave this to the rest of you to discuss, and debate

It's not going to get ugly. Everyone just saw how little you know about these things.

 

[mikhail]

i think u edited it after you posted.

I did not.

look no offense guys but this is gona get ugly so im gona leave this to the rest of you to discuss, and debate

As you wish.

 

[rounder]

accounts mean f*ck all though, like i said its been past down by words and mouth over the centuries, even if he did exist do you really believe all those miracles he performed? thats what i finder harder to beleive

As Seven mentioned earlier , religion isn't about logic or reasoning , it's about faith .

Miracles happen every day , some humans choose to ignore them , others try to make something out of them . Maybe he did perform these miracles , who are we to say he didn't .