The 4-yr. old Preacher (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sheik Yerbouti
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OP
But do you see the logical fallacy here? On one hand, he says everything has to have a creator(cos eventually, everyone is a child of a parent), but that logical is dropped when it comes to god. Why so? Just cos he's made out to be divine? Bullshit. I see this as a cop out from explaining how he came into existence. I don't buy this timeless and spaceless explanation. It's just another thing used to confuse the questioner. Another way to evade the question to which they have no proper answer to.
As for an eternal universe, it is quite possible. But I don't see why someone cannot accept that an eternal universe is possible, but see the need to bring in an eternal god. I see this as a redundancy.
Honestly, I've given up hope that god would ever do something do dramatic. The only time it happened was thousands of years ago, and never after that.
But in this case, it's only theory. Consider there was a police who would come running to save your life if you called 911 during distress or emergency, i.e. when you needed them. Now the only reason you do this is because you have the constitutional guarantee that if you call them, they will respond and some to your aid. But what if there was no guarantee? Not only if the constitution says that the police can help you at their discretion; but even in practice, when you called them when you were in dire need of help, they did not help? Multiple times? Would you not then say that there is no need to call 911 and ask for the police's assistance? And in equating the analogy, doesn't it mean that praying for god to bless you/help you/anything you ask from him, is pointless?
This is the 2nd time you're quoting this site, and the second time it has aroused my interest.
Tell me, how would you interpret the word 'heaven' in this passage? Especially considering how he says 'heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass'?
As for an eternal universe, it is quite possible. But I don't see why someone cannot accept that an eternal universe is possible, but see the need to bring in an eternal god. I see this as a redundancy.
Honestly, I've given up hope that god would ever do something do dramatic. The only time it happened was thousands of years ago, and never after that.
But in this case, it's only theory. Consider there was a police who would come running to save your life if you called 911 during distress or emergency, i.e. when you needed them. Now the only reason you do this is because you have the constitutional guarantee that if you call them, they will respond and some to your aid. But what if there was no guarantee? Not only if the constitution says that the police can help you at their discretion; but even in practice, when you called them when you were in dire need of help, they did not help? Multiple times? Would you not then say that there is no need to call 911 and ask for the police's assistance? And in equating the analogy, doesn't it mean that praying for god to bless you/help you/anything you ask from him, is pointless?
It should be remembered that the concept of the continuous expansion of the universe is exclusive to the Quran. No other Divine scriptures even remotely hint at it. The discovery that the universe is constantly expanding is of prime significance to scientists, because it helps create a better understanding of how the universe was initially created. It clearly explains the stage by stage process of creation, in a manner which perfectly falls into step with the theory of the Big Bang. The Quran goes further and describes the entire cycle of the beginning, the end and the return again to a similar beginning. The first step of creation as related in the Quran accurately describes the event of the Big Bang in the following words:
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?2
It is significant that this verse is specifically addressed to non-believers, implying perhaps, that the unveiling of the secret mentioned in this verse would be made by the non-believers, a sign for them of the truth of the Quran.
In this verse the words ratqan (closed-up mass), and fataqna (We clove them asunder), carry the basic message of the whole verse. Authentic Arabic lexicons3 give two meanings of ratqan, that have great relevance to the topic under discussion. One meaning is 'the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity' and the second meaning is 'total darkness'. Both these meanings are significantly applicable. Taken together, they offer an apt description of the singularity of a black hole.
-http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_5.html
Just felt like throwing that in here
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?2
It is significant that this verse is specifically addressed to non-believers, implying perhaps, that the unveiling of the secret mentioned in this verse would be made by the non-believers, a sign for them of the truth of the Quran.
In this verse the words ratqan (closed-up mass), and fataqna (We clove them asunder), carry the basic message of the whole verse. Authentic Arabic lexicons3 give two meanings of ratqan, that have great relevance to the topic under discussion. One meaning is 'the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity' and the second meaning is 'total darkness'. Both these meanings are significantly applicable. Taken together, they offer an apt description of the singularity of a black hole.
-http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_5.html
Just felt like throwing that in here
Tell me, how would you interpret the word 'heaven' in this passage? Especially considering how he says 'heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass'?
OP
Tell me, Andrea, I read one of your posts in this thread where you said something along the lines of 'hell is the absense of god'. By this, do you mean to suggest that hell, and its opposite, heaven, actually exist or are just a state of mind? I.e., do you think there actually exists a place called heaven and hell, or are they a metaphor for state of mind?
God doesn't have to help you. If you don't even believe in him then why do you expect him to help you? But let's say he does help everyone, why does saving you from death equal help? Why can't death be help? Our understanding of things is so limited. Common human thought/emotion to seeing someone on their death bed hooked up to respirators and other crap is that death would be better. That is our human perception to this persons condition. The reaction to seeing a poverty stricken kid starving in Africa is to help him, feed him, house him etc. One would assume that we would have to exhaust every possible avenue in trying to help this kid before we demand to know why God didn't help this him/her but with the current moral state of man, that is obviously not the case. For the sake of argument though we'll say that this demand is valid. And since you're asking this question of me, a Muslim, I'll tell you that death is not so undesirable (no suicide jokes please 
) to us. Like I said earlier, our existence here on earth is one of a 'guest'. When we have fulfilled our purpose on this planet we will enter the hereafter which is almost indescribable but definitely highly desirable. So when you, as a human and an atheist, see this kid die of starvation you question Gods existence (instead of kicking each other in the ass for not helping him/her) because death to you is the end all be all and highly undesirable.
God chooses to help those he wants, in his way, on his terms. You are the creation, whether you like it not, nothing has to be 'fair' (as you perceive it). There is no way of me proving whether a promotion I got was thanks to my prayer but I've already accepted the idea that God exists so it doesn't matter if he actually helped me or not. Me praying is a product of belief.
In your case, f you literally saw God and without a shadow of a doubt came to accept his existence and thence started to pray. Could you then prove that what you prayed for was actually answered? It's not like you see magic dust appear every time a prayer is answered. Keep in mind, we're assuming that the answer to your prayer is in your best interest (for the sake of argument).
I'm glad. 99% of time I only like to quote from that site as it is from my sect.
I think heaven in this passage is us and anything beyond us; space, universe, the nothingness...a combination everything and nothing/all that we know.
) to us. Like I said earlier, our existence here on earth is one of a 'guest'. When we have fulfilled our purpose on this planet we will enter the hereafter which is almost indescribable but definitely highly desirable. So when you, as a human and an atheist, see this kid die of starvation you question Gods existence (instead of kicking each other in the ass for not helping him/her) because death to you is the end all be all and highly undesirable. God chooses to help those he wants, in his way, on his terms. You are the creation, whether you like it not, nothing has to be 'fair' (as you perceive it). There is no way of me proving whether a promotion I got was thanks to my prayer but I've already accepted the idea that God exists so it doesn't matter if he actually helped me or not. Me praying is a product of belief.
In your case, f you literally saw God and without a shadow of a doubt came to accept his existence and thence started to pray. Could you then prove that what you prayed for was actually answered? It's not like you see magic dust appear every time a prayer is answered. Keep in mind, we're assuming that the answer to your prayer is in your best interest (for the sake of argument).
I'm glad. 99% of time I only like to quote from that site as it is from my sect.
I think heaven in this passage is us and anything beyond us; space, universe, the nothingness...a combination everything and nothing/all that we know.
In this case suffering leads death doesn't it? So ultimately it is death that is the most undesirable end that you fear, isn't it? If starvation (for example) didn't lead to death then why would it be a bad thing?
Falling from a roof top is only scary (a bad experience) because once you hit the ground you will die. The fall itself would be fun if at the bottom you would bounce back up. Catch my drift?
Falling from a roof top is only scary (a bad experience) because once you hit the ground you will die. The fall itself would be fun if at the bottom you would bounce back up. Catch my drift?
OP
Oh I'm not talking about me, but a religious person praying for god for help. And not just death, but ANYTHING they pray for, there is no guarantee that he'll help or answer the prayer. This could be seeking guidance in life, giving a sign of hope, things going his way, a girlfriend, etc. If the rate of answering such prayers is random and arbitrary, then why pray at all? And I'm not talking about Christians or Muslims, but any religious person. I see tons of people in my city going to temples or worshipping god and asking for things like a safe journey to work, good health, wealth, a good life, etc. If these people have no proof that god will actually answer these prayers, but simply do so out of blind faith, then what's the point? It really makes no sense to me.
His undeniable existence will not necessarily prove his ability to intervene in the real world. His past record for answering prayers, in my case and a lot of friends and family I've seen, has been pathetic. So unless he confirms himself that he indeed answered my prayers, there's no way for me of proving it. And I'm not gonna suddenly have unquestioned faith that now that I believe him, every prayer of mine will be answered.
Wait, what's the point of this question again?
His undeniable existence will not necessarily prove his ability to intervene in the real world. His past record for answering prayers, in my case and a lot of friends and family I've seen, has been pathetic. So unless he confirms himself that he indeed answered my prayers, there's no way for me of proving it. And I'm not gonna suddenly have unquestioned faith that now that I believe him, every prayer of mine will be answered.
Wait, what's the point of this question again?
Oh I'm not talking about me, but a religious person praying for god for help. And not just death, but ANYTHING they pray for, there is no guarantee that he'll help or answer the prayer. This could be seeking guidance in life, giving a sign of hope, things going his way, a girlfriend, etc. If the rate of answering such prayers is random and arbitrary, then why pray at all? And I'm not talking about Christians or Muslims, but any religious person. I see tons of people in my city going to temples or worshipping god and asking for things like a safe journey to work, good health, wealth, a good life, etc. If these people have no proof that god will actually answer these prayers, but simply do so out of blind faith, then what's the point? It really makes no sense to me.
His undeniable existence will not necessarily prove his ability to intervene in the real world. His past record for answering prayers, in my case and a lot of friends and family I've seen, has been pathetic. So unless he confirms himself that he indeed answered my prayers, there's no way for me of proving it. And I'm not gonna suddenly have unquestioned faith that now that I believe him, every prayer of mine will be answered.
Wait, what's the point of this question again?
His undeniable existence will not necessarily prove his ability to intervene in the real world. His past record for answering prayers, in my case and a lot of friends and family I've seen, has been pathetic. So unless he confirms himself that he indeed answered my prayers, there's no way for me of proving it. And I'm not gonna suddenly have unquestioned faith that now that I believe him, every prayer of mine will be answered.
Wait, what's the point of this question again?
Reread my post, I edited it.
OP
You/they keep saying it's upto god. Say I need hair. Cos I'm balding like a motherfucker, and it's affecting my self esteem, pride, and affecting how others treat me, and also my prospect of having a normal social life. Now if I pray for hair, and I don't get it, then should I assume that god knows better that I'm better off without my hair? Does he not take my current state of mind into consideration while making the decision? Or somehow, he created me without hair among a lot of people with perfect, beautiful hair, for what? To be ridiculed, made fun of, being outcast? And all this is for my own good?
How do you expect me to take this god or his logical reasoning seriously?
And what is his word?
How do you expect me to take this god or his logical reasoning seriously?
And what is his word?
God has already created the 'help'. He created us to help each other, he gave us things; food, water, air. We have created/invented things because we can think. We have everything we need to help those children from starving but right now we're too selfish and to greedy. Warren Buffet alone has the ability to feed millions of children. You're all acting as if every single thing that could be done to help these kids has been done and we still can't help them so "where's that God of yours, eh?" Common.
Your idea of God is like a personal genie that you can carry around and command whenever you want. So if you're bald and kids make fun of you, you want him to appear and make it all ok.
The Qur'an.
Your idea of God is like a personal genie that you can carry around and command whenever you want. So if you're bald and kids make fun of you, you want him to appear and make it all ok.
The Qur'an.
What's unfair about it? Did you want God to create you in such a way for you to fit in better socially in the 21st century? But then again he doesn't really control pop culture does he? Let's not even mention that culture/pop-culture is constantly changing. So basically you would need to have the option to look different every 5-10 years...is that what you want? If you were born over a hundred years ago being a little pudgy was considered a good thing and people wore wigs in some cases so baldness wouldn't matter. Oh, and then different places have different concepts of beauty so if you traveled to Africa you would want to look a certain way or you'd be made fun of or if you traveled to China you would be above average height so you'd want to be short
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edit: I don't get it, if something is wrong with society why not try to fix it instead of blaming God? Do you think it's ok that people make fun of you for not having hair? It's the same thing with the pain & suffering argument...instead of trying to stop those people that harm others, help those that dying of hunger and poverty you just blame God.
And honestly, if you believed in God and followed the right path you wouldn't care about petty things like baldness and you wouldn't associate with people that felt the childish need to make fun of you for it.
I'm not too familiar with the Gita but the Qur'an states that over 100,000 prophets have appeared and Ahmadi Muslims in particular believe Krishna to be a prophet of God so there might have been a prophet whose teachings appear in the Gita but it is not among the books to be revealed by God, i.e. the Bible, Torah, and the Qur'an.
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edit: I don't get it, if something is wrong with society why not try to fix it instead of blaming God? Do you think it's ok that people make fun of you for not having hair? It's the same thing with the pain & suffering argument...instead of trying to stop those people that harm others, help those that dying of hunger and poverty you just blame God.
And honestly, if you believed in God and followed the right path you wouldn't care about petty things like baldness and you wouldn't associate with people that felt the childish need to make fun of you for it.
I'm not too familiar with the Gita but the Qur'an states that over 100,000 prophets have appeared and Ahmadi Muslims in particular believe Krishna to be a prophet of God so there might have been a prophet whose teachings appear in the Gita but it is not among the books to be revealed by God, i.e. the Bible, Torah, and the Qur'an.
The innocent will be richly repaid in heaven for their suffering, it's written so in Bible. Actually, without reading the bible it's crazy to discuss about religion man, at least the new testament, it'll explain many of those simple questions of yours. Without reading bible it's like discussing about WWII without any deeper knowledge than the name of the main leaders.
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