Terrorism (3 Viewers)

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Zlatan

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Jun 9, 2003
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    ++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++


    OK, and while the "friend of the world" Bill Clinton was in office this is what happened:

    1993- first World Trade Center bombing

    1998- bombing of US embassies in Africa

    2000- bombing of USS Cole in Yemen

    The extremests will be thrilled if Kerry wins, and do you want to know why ?????

    Because , as in the above acts of terrorism, the US did NOTHING !!!!!!

    Love him or hate him, at least Bush takes action

    And what exactly has happened under Bush? Hmmm, let's see:


    9/11, thousands of people dead and injured, and the complete change of the world as we knew it.

    War in Iraq, 920 US soldiers killed, and another 5976 wounded (Link), not to mention the thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by US bombs or soldiers. Oil prices ut to 44$ per barrel, highest in 20 years.

    Destroyed every last bit of credibility the UN might have had.

    Alianated almost the Entre European continent and almost went to financial war with the EU.

    90% of the world hates the US.

    Created the biggest budget deficit in US history, which is projected to be 521 billion $ (521 000 000 000 $) in 2005 and over 800 billion $ (800 000 000 000 $) of national debt. Now, compare this to the Clinton administration which left a budget surplus of over 200 billion $ to Bush, it seems that good ol' Dubya has managed to lose over 700 billion $ in four years. If he gets re-elected maybe you could even break the one trillion record. Good luck with that :thumb: Link






    It seems thet Dubya is quite the ActionMan, Vin...
     

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    Elnur_E65

    Senior Member
    Feb 21, 2004
    10,848
    ++ [ originally posted by Don Bes ] ++
    and his job is ... getting american soldiers killed in iraq?
    Some 900+ US soldiers have been killed so far. And how many people die in car accidents, drug overdose, heart desease? More than 40,000 died in Viet Nam, btw.

    Now, to get it straight from the beginning- I am not a big fan of Bush (and republicans in general). So I am in no way biased. :)

    President's job is to protect American citizens. Not only in military, but in economic terms as well. And economics have been taking over with a pragmatic president Bush- that's what the entire campagn is all about.

    ++ [ originally posted by MISS DUBAI ] ++
    and spreading peace by taking over other countries and torturing people?!
    If you're refering to the "tortures" in US prisons then I have just one thing to say: this happened/happens in every single of 183 nations on Earth. Everybody does it. Because you are dealing with matters of national security.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    ++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++
    From what I've read in your posts, you condone what Bin Laden is doing, but you really dont know what he's all about ????? :confused::confused:
    I never condoned what he is doing, I merely agreed with some of his stated goals. Bin Laden is not a man to be followed, but some of the things that he says are true. All I was saying was that I could understand why radical muslims hate America. For the most part, terrorists are not pathalogical killers, but rather overzealous radicals who do not have the ability to persue a peacful solution.
     

    Torkel

    f(s+1)=3((s +1)-1=3s
    Jul 12, 2002
    3,537
    ++ [ originally posted by Pendir_E65 ] ++
    And economics have been taking over with a pragmatic president Bush- that's what the entire campagn is all about.
    What do you mean "economics have been taking over"? I don't quite understand your sentence here, sorry. :)
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    Yeah, okay. I'm the guy who travels round about the world, and brainwashes every unsuspecting person into buying our products and economic influences. Right, so here I am, send your troops here to capture me for my crimes. :rolleyes:
    I guess I'm going to have to walk you through this entire thing. The greed and consumerism of the American culture is so rampant that it must export labour to other countries, sell their wares in other countries, and most of all take advantage of the people of thsoe countries. You're not going around brainwashing people, but everyday when you as an American create more waste and use or polute more scarce resources (like fresh water, clean air) than the average citizen in any other nation around the world. And it's not even close, Americans deplete resources and generate at many times the global average. Don't you think that this is detrimental to the health and wellbeing of the rest of the world?

    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    Yes, we are the richest country in the world. But how would some people from a country we support feel if all of a sudden we pulled our protection and financial support out of their country, barring Iraq? Would that be right? The richest country in the world not giving a penny to a suffering nation, whose people are starving and opressed? Would it be right for us to sit back and do nothing?
    Of course it would not be right to withold help when it is help you are capable of giving. I don't know what gave you the idea that I was saying that because we weren't even talking about it.

    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    We would be seen as the biggest asswhole country in the world. But wait, according to you Ian, we already are. Sorry, but I think people are just jealous of us. God Bless America and our freedom.
    Finallly, you make a good read. I do think that America is the biggets asswhole country in the world. But, somebody has to be that country, and hopefully as America gets a little older, she'll wise up.


    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    :blah: Well maybe a better word for it is a flat out idiot. One of those idiot terrorists, who rediculously waste their already pathetic lives for a stupid cause started by the biggest coward himself Bin Laden, cannot change how things are in the world. The terrorists will never win.
    Idiot? They gave their lives for a cause that they believed in and a god that they believed in. I think you are the coward because you are not willing to die for the cause you believe in and the god that you believe in.

    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    We are, what, the fourth largest country in the world population wise? We are the richest country in the world; we do help other nations that NEED our help. If another country in the world was on our level it would be the same old thing, wouldn't it?
    Sorry mate, it's not really about helping other countrie out with money or aid. It's about how Americans take and hoard so much that there is not enough for the people who have worked so hard to produce what America spends it's vaste amount of money on.

    ++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
    If you sympathize for Bin Laden and his causes, and support his goals, then yes, I would consider you a terrorist. Much like you consider me the enemy of the entire world. :rolleyes:
    I don't consider you as a person the enemy, I consider you as the people as an enemy. I can't help the fact that what the American people are doing is terribly imoral, irresponsible, and reprehensible. Just because I agree with some of Osama Bin Laden's causes means I'm a terrorist? That's a bit broad, don't you think? I mean, I'm sure that there are tons of people around the world who agree at least partially with what Bin Laden has said. So are they all terrorists too? Why do you have to keep asserting that I'm a terrorist?

    My debate teacher told me once, "If you can't pound the facts, pound the table." I trust you understand.
     

    Elnur_E65

    Senior Member
    Feb 21, 2004
    10,848
    ++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++

    What do you mean "economics have been taking over"? I don't quite understand your sentence here, sorry. :)
    Ok... :)

    Bush and his team care more about economics than politics. Certainly, Iraq campaign was neither about "liberating the free people of Iraq" or "finding weapons of mass destruction". It was about oil, or the security of future oil supply to be exact.

    Daily demand of oil worldwide is currently 67-69 million barrels per day. Iraq, as a second oil-rich nation in the world, is a fruitfull piece in this cake. Before the first Gulf War it was supplying 12 million barrels, which was later limited to 1 million in the framework of the "Oil for Food" program. The potential daily output though is at about 15-17 million barrels (from various sources). What Bush wants to secure is this oil. Now certainly, it belongs to the people of Iraq, but it's not that easy.

    Oil companies, such as Exxon, BP, Shell, etc., when operating in developing countries, normally sign PSAs (Product sharing agreements) with local goverments. For example, BP has formed a consortium for development of Azeri-Chirag-Guneshli oilfield here in Azerbaijan. Agreement was signed in 1994 among Azerbaijani gov-t, BP, and 11 other participating oil companies. So, the oil companies invest around $30 billion over 15 years into development of this oilfield. When the oil flows in 2008 (1.2 million barrels per day), the profits will be accordingly shared among parties which invested in it. The stake of Azerbaijan government was 25%. This means that in 2008 when we start to sell oil only 25% of the profits will go to the country.

    Why is this done? Because local governments neither have the money, nor technology, nor qualified staff to run projects of such a scale. So they (local gov-ts) invite oil companies to come and explore national oilfields.

    That's exactly what will happen in Iraq. Tensions with European countries? Of course, French, Russian and German companies were the ones cooperating with Saddam's regime and now the American's don't want to let this go. They say "hey, we've liberated Iraq, so we'll be the ones eating fruits". It will be BP, ExxonMobil, Texaco, Hulliburton and Bechtel which will get ALL the multibillion dollar oil and civil contracts.

    Just to get you an idea of how much money that is. If we take Iraq's proven reserves (supply of 12 million barrels per day). Let's say the PSA stake on average will be 40% to Iraq and 60% to the oil companies (very rarely happens, so basically a worst case scenario).

    7.2 million barrels * $30 dollars per barrel = $216,000,000 of revenue per day. Let's cup operating expenses, and assume that pure profit is $180 millions per day. This makes $5.4 billion per month. $64.8 billion a year.

    And that's just oil. Then you have construction of roads, factories, hospitals, airports, etc. I can't calculate that, but it's a LOT of money, which will mainly go to American companies.


    On the other hand, securing a supply of 12 millon barrels per day (which is some 17% of world's output) is a very significant figure. OPEC, which controls some 40% of the market will no longer be a dominant player, especially after Azerbaijan's and Central Asian oil will start flowing in 2008- 2011. The US will eventually control world's oil supply, which will allow them to control its price and output.

    So in the long-run, current Iraq campaign is economically very feasible for the United States. Bush has made a lot of mistakes- talking about spreading democracy and finding the weapons and many other things. He shouldn't have lied. But now it is too late. He can't turn around and say "Hey, I've been lying to you for 4 years, please forgive me, I won't do it again".
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,531
    ++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


    I guess I'm going to have to walk you through this entire thing. The greed and consumerism of the American culture is so rampant that it must export labour to other countries, sell their wares in other countries, and most of all take advantage of the people of thsoe countries. You're not going around brainwashing people, but everyday when you as an American create more waste and use or polute more scarce resources (like fresh water, clean air) than the average citizen in any other nation around the world. And it's not even close, Americans deplete resources and generate at many times the global average. Don't you think that this is detrimental to the health and wellbeing of the rest of the world?
    Nope.




    Idiot? They gave their lives for a cause that they believed in and a god that they believed in. I think you are the coward because you are not willing to die for the cause you believe in and the god that you believe in.
    But they don't even have a cause. Thats the thing. Like many people have said, Bin Laden's cause is changing everyday.



    Sorry mate, it's not really about helping other countrie out with money or aid. It's about how Americans take and hoard so much that there is not enough for the people who have worked so hard to produce what America spends it's vaste amount of money on.
    Well, if another country would have these resources, don't you think that they would use them to the max as well? Please. :rolleyes:



    I don't consider you as a person the enemy, I consider you as the people as an enemy. My debate teacher told me once, "If you can't pound the facts, pound the table." I trust you understand.
    Good. Great. Grand. Wonderful. A good friend just told me you are no longer invited to his Superbowl Party. :)
     

    Asma

    Doctor Asma
    Oct 21, 2003
    3,658
    ++ [ originally posted by Pendir_E65 ] ++
    If you're refering to the "tortures" in US prisons then I have just one thing to say: this happened/happens in every single of 183 nations on Earth. Everybody does it. Because you are dealing with matters of national security.
    well,were there any pix sent on email,websites and T.V?
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,531
    Its funny. I live right beside a secret military installation, where they took Cheny during 9/11. Helicopters have been flying over like crazy. I haven't seen as much activity here since, well.......9/11. :undecide:
     

    Vinman

    2013 Prediction Cup Champ
    Jul 16, 2002
    11,481
    ++ [ originally posted by MISS DUBAI ] ++
    and spreading peace by taking over other countries and torturing people?!
    Yeah, we REALLY torture people........

    Have you seen the beheadings of all these innocent people by your Muslim brothers ????? Killing innocent people in the name of Islam.........
     

    Asma

    Doctor Asma
    Oct 21, 2003
    3,658
    ok ok Vin,i wont deny that! i dont support their actions and i dont support bush's actions either! why did he send his army down to iraq?to spread peace? (as if).....
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    ++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++


    Yeah, we REALLY torture people........

    Have you seen the beheadings of all these innocent people by your Muslim brothers ????? Killing innocent people in the name of Islam.........
    that equals then.
     

    Vinman

    2013 Prediction Cup Champ
    Jul 16, 2002
    11,481
    I'm outta these discussions...........

    I am sticking with the Juve threads, because I know thats about the ONLY thing I have in common with most of you.............

    Just remember 1 thing...If Bin Laden had his way, there would be NO football in this world..............
     

    River

    Senior Member
    Jun 15, 2004
    2,261
    Torture has always and will always be used in war. Youd be alittle slow to think for a second that it dosent happen. And its usually needed to gain information.
     

    Asma

    Doctor Asma
    Oct 21, 2003
    3,658
    look vin,i curse bin laden almost everyday,cuz he started it,ok?and u know what,this world isnt worth living in...it totally stinks!
     

    River

    Senior Member
    Jun 15, 2004
    2,261
    ++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++
    I'm outta these discussions...........

    I am sticking with the Juve threads, because I know thats about the ONLY thing I have in common with most of you.............

    Just remember 1 thing...If Bin Laden had his way, there would be NO football in this world..............
    I agree with pretty much everything youve said.

    Its like I said before, not living in a number one target nation like the UK or the US its easy to damn everything.

    What alternatives are there? Dont go to war and sit there and trust the UN to solve everything. That sounds reassuring :rolleyes:
     

    Asma

    Doctor Asma
    Oct 21, 2003
    3,658
    The UN sucks...they cant do anything and i dont thnik they will! :( where are human rights and stuff like that?:down:
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,531
    ++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++
    I'm outta these discussions...........

    I am sticking with the Juve threads, because I know thats about the ONLY thing I have in common with most of you.............

    Just remember 1 thing...If Bin Laden had his way, there would be NO football in this world..............
    Thats one of the most valid statements I've seen in this Thread.

    I've also agreed with most of what you said Vinny. :)
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,531
    ++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


    I agree with pretty much everything youve said.

    Its like I said before, not living in a number one target nation like the UK or the US its easy to damn everything.

    What alternatives are there? Dont go to war and sit there and trust the UN to solve everything. That sounds reassuring :rolleyes:
    Yeah just don't do anything, and let terrorists roam the world free like snakes in a jungle. :rolleyes:
     
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