Tactics and Formations (8 Viewers)

[Bianconero81]

None of the big teams, and I guess there is a reason for that

We lack width, and that puts us at a disadvantage in Europe. If you are able to play through the center, as well as spread out the play to the flanks a la Bayern or Madrid (not to mention attack at pace and look dangerous on the counter attack) you have a clear advantage against any opponent.

 

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[alexjuventino]

None of the big teams, and I guess there is a reason for that

We lack width, and that puts us at a disadvantage in Europe. If you are able to play through the center, as well as spread out the play to the flanks a la Bayern or Madrid (not to mention attack at pace and look dangerous on the counter attack) you have a clear advantage against any opponent.

Agreed also you should change the bendtner pic to this

 

[Zacheryah]

Did i ask you for advice ?

Also let me not forget ,the last Italian team that won the Champions League,Inter had to change from a 4-3-1-2 initially (with Sniejder behind Eto'o and Milito) to a 4-2-3-1 with Pandev and Eto'o on the wings with Eto'o playing even at WB sometimes and the results were there to see.

Yeah, i suppose it was that.

It very likely had nothing to do with inter having 0 creative central player, sneijder's forte beeing long passes at fast moving players, and inter having quite good wide players actually.
I suppose it also had nothing to do with milan having immensively complete central midfield players, pirlo in his prime and Kaka who are far better then todays pirlo and tevez, coupled with champions such as gattuso and seedorf and a strong complete forward.
And it had offcourse nothing to do with milan simply beeing brilliant in the small space offensively and defensively.

Nope, it was because inter just needed wings. period. No further explenation required

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None of the big teams, and I guess there is a reason for that

We lack width, and that puts us at a disadvantage in Europe. If you are able to play through the center, as well as spread out the play to the flanks a la Bayern or Madrid (not to mention attack at pace and look dangerous on the counter attack) you have a clear advantage against any opponent.

I remember 2007 milan beeing able to launch a counterattack from their own box, to the opponent goal and score it, within 4 passes and 7 seconds. Yeah, beeing narrow hurted them badly indeed

 

[Red]

No team deploying 3-5-2 has won in Europe, so we aren't going to win the CL using that formation; the odds are stacked against us.

The Bayern team that won in 2001 (and should have won in 1999) played with a back three/five, I believe.

 

[Gian]

The Bayern team that won in 2001 (and should have won in 1999) played with a back three/five, I believe.

Way too long ago.

4231 is the way to go now, just look at the last two CL finals. Both were 4231 vs 4231

 

[Nzoric]

4231 is the way to go now, just look at the last two CL finals. Both were 4231 vs 4231

You have just produced the worst argumrnt Ive seen on the tuz since I joined.

 

[Zacheryah]

Way too long ago.

4231 is the way to go now, just look at the last two CL finals. Both were 4231 vs 4231

4231 requires specific players to work. Like any other formation.

Since teams generally suck at controlling space, and there seemingly arent great defensive midfielders and fullbacks anymore, everyone just goes double wings, whilst keeping a strong midfield.

It all depends on the players at hand

 

[Red]

It rather amuses me how much time I end up spending defending Juve's use of the 3-5-2 given that it's a system I've never liked.

 

[Suns]

Did 2007 milan lack width ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Milan use the christmas tree formation with Kaka and Seedorf behind Pippo?

 

[Gian]

You have just produced the worst argumrnt Ive seen on the tuz since I joined.

We both know that aint true.

4231 requires specific players to work. Like any other formation.

Since teams generally suck at controlling space, and there seemingly arent great defensive midfielders and fullbacks anymore, everyone just goes double wings, whilst keeping a strong midfield.

It all depends on the players at hand

I agree, thing is 352 is quite fragile against a proper 4231 with wingers. 2 vs 1 on the wings is suicide. 3/4 top teams in Europe use wingers

 

[Nzoric]

Yes it is. You concluded from the fact that both teams in the chl were playing 4-2-3-1 that its the bestest formation. Which makes you look like a peasand.

 

[Red]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Milan use the christmas tree formation with Kaka and Seedorf behind Pippo?

Yeah, in 2007 Milan were something like:

Dida

Oddo-Nesta-Maldini-Jankulovski

Gattuso-Pirlo-Ambrosini

Kaka-Seedorf

Inzaghi​

Still a system that is dependant on the full backs for width, though, just like 4-3-1-2.

 

[Gian]

Yes it is. You concluded from the fact that both teams in the chl were playing 4-2-3-1 that its the bestest formation. Which makes you look like a peasand.

No it isn't peasand. Most top teams in Europe use a 4231 or a 433, every CL finalist of the past years has used wingers, it's proven in the CL. Not only that, but a 352 vs a side with good wingers and fullbacks doesn't really work either.

 

[Vlad]

I agree, thing is 352 is quite fragile against a proper 4231 with wingers. 2 vs 1 on the wings is suicide. 3/4 top teams in Europe use wingers

And you know what? We'll still play 352 despite everything. Absolute suicide to play it in Europe. If we had WBs capable of beating their markers and/or putting in a decent cross we might stand a chance.

Nicely explained although the issue of 352 is quite obvious by itself. Credit's to @The Cusp who posted it few pages back. I felt the need to post it again for the ones who missed it first time.

http://www.carloancelotti.it/05-diff...ing-offensivo/

Spoiler

"The opposition in 4.4.2 to 5.3.2. Difficulties and solutions in the offensive Pressing "


05 - DIFFICULTY 'OFFENSIVE AND SOLUTIONS IN PRESSING

Hello everyone!
The Ligue 1 and the Champions League enter their crucial phase, and this periodic meeting with all of you, I am a professional range really nice: relieves tension and the high concentration accompanying the preparation of objectives that would be historic for the club and of course for me.

Today I want to introduce you to a specific tactical situation:

"The opposition in 4.4.2 to 5.3.2. Difficulties and solutions Pressing offensive "
Let's see ...

OBJECTIVE: Pressing Offensive

DIFFICULTIES ': the presence of three midfielders opponents in midfield and especially the player back dancing behind the two central midfielders of 4.4.2.

If we consider that our two external, have the external adversaries as a reference, we are outnumbered in midfield, with the result that they can not press them effectively, they have control of the game.


FIRST SOLUTION:
Attach it, in turn, with one of our two central midfielders, but this produces a bad result to discover the central area of the field, creating a space in which, during the possession, midfielders opponents can be inserted. (fig .1)

SECOND SOLUTION:
Re-enter with an attacking midfielder down. (Fig. 2)

THIRD SOLUTION: Combined action based on the position of the ball:

1) With ball into the opposing half = outside backs more open and closer. (fig. 3)

With ball in our half of the field outside = very tight, to play on the opponents midfielders and allow one of the central midfielders to press the midfield opponent down. (Fig. 4)

In this case, the full-backs must be able to climb on the inclusion of the exterior, three against two opponents and remain on the defensive, with opposite narrow back.

COMMENTS:

Against the 5-3-2 (with the 4-4-2 ), in phase of possession, one has the possibility of having space on the backs and then these must receive the ball in a high position, so as to force the exterior (of five defenders) to come up.

In front of this situation is a fundamental movement behind the same and open one of the three central defenders, creating a central space where one of our tips will directly attack the deep.

I have given you a solution that allowed me to solve a difficult situation has arisen in the league against Lyon and I hope will serve you all, of course if you want to make an offensive pressure.

​

 

[Hydde]

One thing is clear... we will continue using the 352 until we get pummeled with it once after another with no sign of being able to counter it.

Otherwisem is almost a lost cause. I dont hate the 352, in fact i like it a ,ot...but our 352..is very very pale.

 

[Zacheryah]

It rather amuses me how much time I end up spending defending Juve's use of the 3-5-2 given that it's a system I've never liked.

I'm actually a fan of 4-2-3-1, the way mourinho played it at inter.
3-5-2 initially never appealed to me.

Then i started to understand the formation more, and how it should be played given the ideal players for it. Quite like it since. I'd play it slightly diffrent tho, but juve doesnt have the players for my version of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Milan use the christmas tree formation with Kaka and Seedorf behind Pippo?

Correct, but the importance was the way they played it. They had a fantastic organisation, and kept it narrow. In possession they allways tried fast paced offensive attacks with direct vertical passing trough the center. only when they didnt manage to take a chance, the fullbacks came into play, as support stretching it a bit but never like for example man utd uses them.

Yeah, in 2007 Milan were something like:

Dida

Oddo-Nesta-Maldini-Jankulovski

Gattuso-Pirlo-Ambrosini

Kaka-Seedorf

Inzaghi​

Still a system that is dependant on the full backs for width, though, just like 4-3-1-2.

yeah. I do still think their 04/05 side was better tho. imagine that formation, with shevshenko still there, rui costa and cafu in their best days. dayum

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One thing is clear... we will continue using the 352 until we get pummeled with it once after another with no sign of being able to counter it.

Otherwisem is almost a lost cause. I dont hate the 352, in fact i like it a ,ot...but our 352..is very very pale.

To those going on about "3-5-2 is boring"

Courtois

Kompany
Tiago Silva----Chiellini

Pirlo
Lahm-Vidal-Pogba-Bale

Aguero
Falcao​

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

You'd take Courtois over Neuer?

 

[Red]

I'm actually a fan of 4-2-3-1, the way mourinho played it at inter.
3-5-2 initially never appealed to me.

Then i started to understand the formation more, and how it should be played given the ideal players for it. Quite like it since. I'd play it slightly diffrent tho, but juve doesnt have the players for my version of it.

I just don't like playing with three centre halves when, the vast majority of the time, you are playing against one striker. Part of that is down to me thinking more in terms of defenders marking rather than occupying zones than most people do, though.

It's a system that can be a good solution in certain situations (like with Juve and Pirlo), but I can't imagine ever starting with the intention to play 3-5-2 the way someone like Mazzarri does.

yeah. I do still think their 04/05 side was better tho. imagine that formation, with shevshenko still there, rui costa and cafu in their best days. dayum

Yeah, I always think the Milan team that lost to Liverpool was better than the one that beat them.

On paper, the 2005 Milan team is probably one of the best ever.

Didn't do enough on the pitch to actually get that sort of status, though.

 

[Bianconero81]

I remember 2007 milan beeing able to launch a counterattack from their own box, to the opponent goal and score it, within 4 passes and 7 seconds. Yeah, beeing narrow hurted them badly indeed

Counterattack? We aren't a counterattacking team either. Hence, lack of width, and lack of pace will hurt us in Europe. I don't care what Milan did in Europe 6 years ago; that is an exception, not the norm.

Oh, and Zach, I am not saying we should ditch the 3-5-2 or deploy
the 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 or any other variation. It was a simple observation that no team has won in Europe using a 3-5-2 formation.

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The Bayern team that won in 2001 (and should have won in 1999) played with a back three/five, I believe.

12 years ago Red. I guess I should have made myself clear; no team over the past decade has successfuly maanged to deploy the 3-5-2 and win the CL with it

 

[edgardavids2608]

Ok lets calm down here we have not lost a game this season yet. Also we lack some edge to our game but we are improving and are changing the way we play a little. Notice how our cbs bring the ball forward this season. This is definately to counter the one striker system and use the extra man to bring the ball up field beofre we are under pressure. Secondly you cant expect our defense to magically be the dame when we move to a different formation. We might play defensive but also we dont concede many goals either so it helps. We play a style that caant do well with stupid mistakes which we have seen this season and unfortunately in the cl against Bayern as well. Lets not forget that against ste clear cut best team in the world we had to play from behind for 178 minutes plus stoppages. Did we have trouble? absolutely er did. What if we had a much better squad with a great coach like mourinho built on the 4-2-3-1 system? That didnt work eithr did it? Honesly I think the only way to get past pressure that bayern showed so well last season and that of Barca of old that was so effecient with the ball at their feet and organized pressing immediately when thy lose it is to play counterattacking similar to a mazzari or ancelotti could do and bypass the midfield all together. Not sure why all the talk about width killing us. We are ok on the wings and we dont get over run that easily. Obviously if a 4-2-3-1 system beats us its based on their strength which is the wings. If we win the game wecontrol the wings like we did against Chelsea and shut them down. 4-2-3-1 has just as many flaws and for every team that is effective at it there are some with great players that cant run it well. The teams that run it well in recent years is more due to the pressure than the way they attack. To be a complete and comsistant team you have to keep goals out of the net first and then look to create yourself not the other way around. Conte is always looking to adapt the formation to add different elements to our game and I think we will be effective if we continue to play strong defnse