Syrian civil war (38 Viewers)

[Seven]

Nonsense per usual.

The last thing international politics need is a bold and aggressive EU. I don't know why Zach insists on adding even more fuel to the fire.

 

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[Turk_Bianconero]

So what you are saying is, a country's leader should be elected by the people on certain intervals and requires a parliament to work, right ?

If you're implying that Turkey don't have these, it will further prove that you know nothing about it.

Do you think the US invasion of Iraq and toppling Saddam was a good idea?

It wasn't. I am not asking for US to ''save'' Syrians either. People should do it themselves, otherwise the puppet will be replaced by another. And they were about to do that, if it wasn't for Iran and Russia's heinous intervation.

 

[Seven]

If you're implying that Turkey don't have these, it will further prove that you know nothing about it.

Oh FFS, you are both utterly clueless.

 

[Juliano13]

The Gulf War was, but the Gulf War did not end by overthrowing the Saddam regime. And it ended in 1991.

Not removing Saddam was a huge mistake by George Bush, which was corrected by his son.

 

[JuveJay]

You must have a pretty bad image of policemen if that's how you'd characterize America's behaviour the past decade

It fits well with American police, doesn't it?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Oh FFS, you are both utterly clueless.

I might be clueless about many things, but let me know it better when it comes to my country.

 

[Seven]

Not removing Saddam was a huge mistake by George Bush, which was corrected by his son.

Maybe. But my point is that the 2nd Iraq war, which is the one we were talking about, cannot be compared to the Allies declaring war on Germany at all.

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I might be clueless about many things, but let me know it better when it comes to my country.

Yeah, no. In fact I'd argue this is the subject you know the least about.

 

[Zacheryah]

The last thing international politics need is a bold and aggressive EU. I don't know why Zach insists on adding even more fuel to the fire.

This all comes from Enron's "why dont you draw the line"


We, the EU, never take the initiative.


I'm not saying thats a bad thing. But thats how it is.

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If you're implying that Turkey don't have these, it will further prove that you know nothing about it.



It wasn't. I am not asking for US to ''save'' Syrians either. People should do it themselves, otherwise the puppet will be replaced by another. And they were about to do that, if it wasn't for Iran and Russia's heinous intervation.

Yeah, at the moment you have these. Remember that when you vote.

 

[Raz]

I might be clueless about many things, but let me know it better when it comes to my country.

Do you know why audits are usually best done by someone from outside?

 

[Juliano13]

If you're implying that Turkey don't have these, it will further prove that you know nothing about it.

What a lot of people don't get, including the Americans, is that having an election is not the only requirement to qualify as a democracy.

"According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens"

So, even if we assume that the elections in Turkey are free and fair, which they aren't, they still fail c) and possibly even d).

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Maybe. But my point is that the 2nd Iraq war, which is the one we were talking about, cannot be compared to the Allies declaring war on Germany at all.

At least you agree that the first Gulf war was justified. The 2nd Iraq war is different, but there are similarities. Imagine this situation: in 1939 Hitler does not invade Poland, but continues to arm himself, to try to build a nuclear bomb and exterminates the jews in Germany. Would the allies be justified in declaring war on Germany? If you think the answer is yes, which I do, then by the same logic the war on Iraq was justified.

 

[Seven]

What a lot of people don't get, including the Americans, is that having an election is not the only requirement to qualify as a democracy.

"According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens"

So, even if we assume that the elections in Turkey are free and fair, which they aren't, they still fail c) and possibly even d).

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At least you agree that the first Gulf war was justified. The 2nd Iraq war is different, but there are similarities. Imagine this situation: in 1939 Hitler does not invade Poland, but continues to arm himself, to try to build a nuclear bomb and exterminates the jews in Germany. Would the allies be justified in declaring war on Germany? If you think the answer is yes, which I do, then by the same logic the war on Iraq was justified.

That's a difficult question. On the hand it's a preemptive war, on the other it's also a humanitarian intervention. Which is why it's compareable to the 2nd Gulf War.

But whatever Iraq was doing was still not on the same scale.

 

[Juliano13]

That's a difficult question. On the hand it's a preemptive war, on the other it's also a humanitarian intervention. Which is why it's compareable to the 2nd Gulf War.

But whatever Iraq was doing was still not on the same scale.

Only because they didn't have the means to do it on the same scale. The same applies to all the wannabe Caliphates. They would do even worse than Hitler, if they ever became strong enough.

 

[Maddy]

This all comes from Enron's "why dont you draw the line"


We, the EU, never take the initiative.


I'm not saying thats a bad thing. But thats how it is.

Seriously. Just once in a fucking blue moon read up on the nonsense you spew, you are a tomahawk missile of absolute bullshit.

The Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) is the organised, agreed foreign policy of the European Union (EU) for mainly security and defence diplomacy and actions. CFSP deals only with a specific part of the EU's external relations, which domains include mainly Trade and Commercial Policy and other areas such as funding to third countries, etc. Decisions require unanimity among member states in the Council of the European Union, but once agreed, certain aspects can be further decided by qualified majority voting. Foreign policy is chaired and represented by the EU's High Representative, currently Federica Mogherini.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy

Now shut up and educate yourself.

 

[Seven]

Only because they didn't have the means to do it on the same scale. The same applies to all the wannabe Caliphates. They would do even worse than Hitler, if they ever became strong enough.

Maybe. But the scale matters. Preemptive strikes aren't true self defense. They're attacks. The US invaded Iraq and they did so illegally.

Elsewhere in this thread I've already said that in some situations the law can be disregarded. But this was not such a case.

 

[Juliano13]

Maybe. But the scale matters. Preemptive strikes aren't true self defense. They're attacks. The US invaded Iraq and they did so illegally.

Elsewhere in this thread I've already said that in some situations the law can be disregarded. But this was not such a case.

Just because one country is a lot stronger than another, doesn't mean that preemptive war cannot be justified. Besides, you also can't compare the casualties in WW2 with the number of casualties in the Iraq War.

As to the war being "illegal", as Hitchens said, there were 4 major violations of international law by Iraq, with just one of them justifying military action. The US went alone, only because the European "allies" are useless pussies who were going to bend over for Saddam.

 

[Zacheryah]

Seriously. Just once in a fucking blue moon read up on the nonsense you spew, you are a tomahawk missile of absolute bullshit.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Foreign_and_Security_Policy

Now shut up and educate yourself.

Thats what you define as initiative ? ok

 

[Seven]

Just because one country is a lot stronger than another, doesn't mean that preemptive war cannot be justified. Besides, you also can't compare the casualties in WW2 with the number of casualties in the Iraq War.

As to the war being "illegal", as Hitchens said, there were 4 major violations of international law by Iraq, with just one of them justifying military action. The US went alone, only because the European "allies" are useless pussies who were going to bend over for Saddam.

You're not getting it. Iraq was never a real threat to the US. If you want to argue for the legality of preemptive war, that's the very least you should prove.

The international law violations did not legally justify war. Not even close. My source on this? A judge on the International Criminal Court who taught me as a student, but cannot go on record about this.



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[Seven]

Thats what you define as initiative ? ok

What do you want the EU or Europe (not the same thing) to do?

 

[Juliano13]

You're not getting it. Iraq was never a real threat to the US. If you want to argue for the legality of preemptive war, that's the very least you should prove.

The international law violations did not legally justify war. Not even close. My source on this? A judge on the International Criminal Court who taught me as a student, but cannot go on record about this.



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No, you are not getting it. They don't have to be a threat to the US to justify war, at least not for me. Just like in the hypothetical with Germany, they didn't have to be a threat to the US to justify war.

Maybe the term preemptive war is not very accurate, but Saddam was exterminating his own people, he was a serious danger to the neighboring countries, he was toying with the non-proliferation agreement and was trying to pool the wool over the inspector's eyes (which is conveniently left out by all the critics, who only mention that no actual WMDs were found), and he was harboring terrorists, such as Zarqawi. If that doesn't justify war, I don't know what does.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

No, they don't. There are is no genocide carried out by the US government on its own population. The US are not violating the Non-proliferation treaty. They are not harboring international terrorists, and despite the libtarded drivel, they are not annexing territories of other countries. Iraq under Saddam did all these things and it's pathetic that people are defending him or comparing the US to that criminal regime. Yes, people died during the war and the US made a lot of mistakes and couldn't stabilise the country, but that doesn't mean that they are worse or that it wasn't justified to take Saddam out. For example, even though the Allies declared war on Germany in WW2 and a lot of civilians died, that doesn't make them the aggressors or as bad as the Nazis. You are just driven by blind hatred for America.

What genocide did saddam commit? None, america has systematically annihilated all of the native populations. So in genocides america 1 iraq 0.

America is in violation of the non-proliferation treaty because it is yet to destroy any of its nuclear arsenal not to mention that it's the only country to actually use nuclear weapons. So in nuclear US 1 the world 0.

The US has taken in a lot of the nazis post WWII. Since then it has organized coups and placed tyranical despots to undertake its bidding all over the world. Not to mention iraq was exonerated from the silly al qaeda links the bush administration has accused it of. Terrorism, US 1 iraq 0.
The Iraq war was an illegal war and all the mental gymnastics will not undo that.

Finally, i hate US as much as you love facts and know me.