Summer mercato thread 2017-18 (77 Viewers)

[Zacheryah]

OK we need to be careful not to look at the 2nd half of the champions league final and making conclusions about the what the team needs etc. Yes there were some important lessons but that game could have gone a whole lot differently if a few of our players played better and we had a bit of luck. Real Madrid's second goal came off a deflection which was unlucky. Its not an excuse by any means - just saying in one off games a lot of things can influence the outcome. Pjanic was having a great game - then he got injured - in the first half I think the game was evenly matched. Something happened in the 2nd half especially after we conceded. The only attacking option we had on the bench was Cuadrado - and he is not the most consistent of attacking players.

Dybala was in my opinion, the biggest disappointment in that game. People talk about Higuain but I think Dybala was the more disappointing. I think it was no coincidence though. Zidane was smart on his tactics and he suffocated Dybala as he rightly observed that he was the key link between defence and attack and Real Madrid didn't pour forward aimlessly either.

Having said all of that, the 16/17 Juve squad seemed to consistently win without playing amazing football and when we did need to raise our game we did - particularly against Barcelona at home. In the league we frequently won games 1-0 or 2-0 - very rarely completely punished the opposition - consistently saving energy for the next game. We rarely needed to come back from behind - so that game against Real did expose this.

Its simple man

no depth : people at risk of getting injured, and physically overtaxed at the final
We had a great first half, two injuries which exposed the issues we have with khedira and madrid scored a lucky deflection when we were suffering


What we need is more offensive and cm depth

Berna+Costa+Schick is exactly that (frees up manbro for cf too if needed)

Marchisio should be back in shape, and we'll get a physical cm

 

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[pitbull]

Silly.

2015 : 16-7 = +9GD before final
2017 : 21-3 = +18GD before final

Conclusion : despite beeing much more organised, we were incredibly superior in attack, ergo much better team

I can give you Monaco 15 being a similar team to Monaco 17 and us doing better against them.

I can't give you Barca 17 being even remotely close to the quality of Madrid 15 or Barca 15. This season we played precisely one game against a superior opponent and got destroyed. In 2015 we played 3 games against superior opponents, but managed to master Ancelotti's Real and played an even match against Barca in the final. How much goals you score against lesser opponents matters little if you crumble completely when the going gets tough.

 

[Post Ironic]

The mercato hinges on getting a top class CM to partner Pjanic.

 

[pitbull]

Are you mentally challenged?

We had a better goal differential in both competitions, which means a great reward, obviously. And that we were playing with 4 attackers as opposed to 2. Mandzu and Cuadrado/Alves were not ever playing all-out attack.

PS. We allowed 10 goals in the CL in 2014-15. This year we allowed 7.

+15 goal differential to +7

If you can't figure out that this team performed at a higher level and was more convincing you're ignoring all available evidence.

Take a look at both finals, that's the game that matters. This year we were done as soon as we stepped out on the field for 2nd half, team completely gave up and it didn't matter how many goals we scored against Porto, Barca or Monaco. In 2015 we were in the game until the late Neymar goal.

We took midfield out of the equation knowing that a truly better team like Madrid with Modric-Kroos-Casemiro will boss us at the middle of the park, but hoping that our individuals in attack will terrorize their defense. Not only they didn't do that, they couldn't even string 3 passes together for most of the time.

 

[Post Ironic]

I can give you Monaco 15 being a similar team to Monaco 17 and us doing better against them.

I can't give you Barca 17 being even remotely close to the quality of Madrid 15 or Barca 15. This season we played precisely one game against a superior opponent and got destroyed. In 2015 we played 3 games against superior opponents, but managed to master Ancelotti's Real and played an even match against Barca in the final. How much goals you score against lesser opponents matters little if you crumble completely when the going gets tough.

We played an injury decimated Madrid in 2015. The game we actually beat them in they had to start Ramos in midfield. Acting like them missing arguably the best CM in football for both legs in Modric was no big deal is laughable.

The only team we convincingly beat in 14-15 was Dortmund. And they were in the relegation zone when we played the first leg

We managed to lose to Olympiacos, get dominated by Atletico twice, and barely beat Olympiacos 3-2 in Turin.

 

[pitbull]

We played an injury decimated Madrid in 2015. The game we actually beat them in they had to start Ramos in midfield. Acting like them missing arguably the best CM in football for both legs in Modric was no big deal is laughable.

The only team we convincingly beat in 14-15 was Dortmund. And they were in the relegation zone when we played the first leg

We managed to lose to Olympiacos, get dominated by Atletico twice, and barely beat Olympiacos 3-2 in Turin.

Still a top team, unlike Barca with Mathieu in defense and Neymar/Suarez choking like they're Higuains sisters.

That's my point, 2015 was a physical team that couldn't get past weaker opponents with as much ease as 2017, but they surely wouldn't have given up after half the game played like 2017. You prefer stomping weaker teams and bending over against top teams, I'd rather have a balanced side.

 

[Roman]

From looking on the stats of Costa and Berna regarding their preferred sides:

Costa:
with Bayern : 77 games played, 54 as a LW (9G,21A) , 15 as a RW(2G,3A) ,8 as an AM(3G,3A).
with Shakhtar: 112 games played, 18 as a LW (4G,7A), 90 as a RW(17G,17A) ,4 as an AM(1G,1A). (he played 202 games but only last seasons has full stats)

total: 189 games played, 105 as a RW (19G,20A), 72 as a LW (13G,28A), 12 as an AM (4G,4A).


Berna:(Fiorentina and 1 season in Serie-B with Crotone)

in Serie-A: 72 games played,54 has full stats: 17 as SS(3G,2A),13 as RW (1G,3A),11 as RM (0G,2A),11 as LW (8G,2A),2 as AM (0G,0A).
in Serie-B: 36 games played, 32 as a RW (10G,6A) ,5 as a LW (1G,1A),1 as SS (1G,0A).
in EL: 12 games with stats: 4 as LW (3G,0A)[/B],4 as AM (1G,1A),3 as a RW (3G,0A),1 as CF(0G,0A).

all competitions: 129 games played,105 has stats: 49 as RW(14G,9A), 21 as a LW (12G,3A), 18 as a SS (4G,2A), 6 as an AM (1G,1A).

Looks like Berna's more productive games comes from the LW position where he plays more lately.(his most RW production was in Serie-B so..)
On other side,Costa was great as a LW under Pep in his first season with Bayern but it seems like RW is his better position.

But damn they are soooo fucking versatile and will give us so many options to change players in the attacking build.
Both can play the SS as well.
Hopefully they will add force to our attack and finally help Dybala to not be the only creative player who has to invent it all everytime.

 

[Post Ironic]

Take a look at both finals, that's the game that matters. This year we were done as soon as we stepped out on the field for 2nd half, team completely gave up and it didn't matter how many goals we scored against Porto, Barca or Monaco. In 2015 we were in the game until the late Neymar goal.

We took midfield out of the equation knowing that a truly better team like Madrid with Modric-Kroos-Casemiro will boss us at the middle of the park, but hoping that our individuals in attack will terrorize their defense. Not only they didn't do that, they couldn't even string 3 passes together for most of the time.

In 14-15 we were lucky not to be down 3-0 at the half. We got destroyed for 45 minutes, made a 20 minute push where we looked the better team and then folded after the second goal.

This year we controlled the match against Madrid for the first half and then absolutely wilted in the second half when Pjanic got injured.

Oh, and our vaunted midfield got bossed by Rakitic, Busquets, Iniesta in 14-15.

 

[Hist]

not to mention that we are far more calm and mature now than we used to be before because of how much experience we have gained since then. Last time it was a fluke that we made the final and we were the surprise package. This year we were not a surprise. We were expected to be in the last 4 and anything less would have been a failure. That increased expectation from the club and the fans (and neutrals) alike speaks to our growth. This team is better. Its just not better than the improved Madrid.


You'll see over the next couple of years how long it will take Chelsea & the other EPL clubs to gain enough experience and confidence in Europe before they can even dare face barca with the confidence that we had going into that game. It even took Madrid themselves with their 2 star studded squads and serial winners like Ronaldo and Ramos a good period of time before that group could play Bayern & Juve the way they did.

Confidence & Experience are worth A LOT and @Drizzy is barely giving that any worth in his analysis.

 

[Post Ironic]

Still a top team, unlike Barca with Mathieu in defense and Neymar/Suarez choking like they're Higuains sisters.

That's my point, 2015 was a physical team that couldn't get past weaker opponents with as much ease as 2017, but they surely wouldn't have given up after half the game played like 2017.

No. 2015 team just didn't show up for the first 45 minutes instead. Much better that way.

 

[Catenaccio]

Comparing the 15 squad to the 17 squad is kind of pointless. The 15 squad was more physical but less creative. Pirlo was heavily depended on and he didn't always have a great game. From an offensive point of view, the 17 squad was much more dangerous offensively - what it lacked in physical solidity it made up for with its offensive outlet. So they are VERY different teams. In fact, I rate the 17 squad higher overall. I rated our chances of beating Barcelona before the final as very low while I was somewhat more hopeful for this final.

Alves will be a big loss next year. But if we can keep the 1st team players from last year and add new dimensions with Costa, Matuidi, Bernardeschi, Schick and hopefully a fit Pjaca - injury permitting we will be a LOT stronger overall. Other powerhouses like Madrid, Bayern, Barca etc are probably going to be as strong or stronger still though.

 

[Roman]

Comparing the 15 squad to the 17 squad is kind of pointless. The 15 squad was more physical but less creative. Pirlo was heavily depended on and he didn't always have a great game. From an offensive point of view, the 17 squad was much more dangerous offensively - what it lacked in physical solidity it made up for with its offensive outlet. So they are VERY different teams. In fact, I rate the 17 squad higher overall. I rated our chances of beating Barcelona before the final as very low while I was somewhat more hopeful for this final.

Alves will be a big loss next year. But if we can keep the 1st team players from last year and add new dimensions with Costa, Matuidi, Bernardeschi, Schick and hopefully a fit Pjaca - injury permitting we will be a LOT stronger overall.

 

[Post Ironic]

Comparing the 15 squad to the 17 squad is kind of pointless. The 15 squad was more physical but less creative. Pirlo was heavily depended on and he didn't always have a great game. From an offensive point of view, the 17 squad was much more dangerous offensively - what it lacked in physical solidity it made up for with its offensive outlet. So they are VERY different teams. In fact, I rate the 17 squad higher overall. I rated our chances of beating Barcelona before the final as very low while I was somewhat more hopeful for this final.

Alves will be a big loss next year. But if we can keep the 1st team players from last year and add new dimensions with Costa, Matuidi, Bernardeschi, Schick and hopefully a fit Pjaca - injury permitting we will be a LOT stronger overall.

While Matuidi would be alright, I'd be a little disappointed if he is our CM signing. We should have gone in for Kante last summer. Too bad that ship has sailed.

 

[pitbull]

In 14-15 we were lucky not to be down 3-0 at the half. We got destroyed for 45 minutes, made a 20 minute push where we looked the better team and then folded after the second goal.

This year we controlled the match against Madrid for the first half and then absolutely wilted in the second half when Pjanic got injured.

Oh, and our vaunted midfield got bossed by Rakitic, Busquets, Iniesta in 14-15.

What's wrong with 2014-15 Rakitič-Busquets-Iniesta? All very good and/or WC players, probably the best in the world when it comes to instinctive one touch passing and moving the ball around faster than the opponent can follow, no shame in losing the battle to that midfield.

This year was a disgrace and you know it. 2015 was heartbreaking, but I was not ashamed of my team.

p.s. Please stop using smileys, they kind of make me wanna stop talking to you.

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No. 2015 team just didn't show up for the first 45 minutes instead. Much better that way.

If they wouldn't have shown up for 45 minutes, the game would be over. Like it was in 2nd half in Cardiff.

 

[Post Ironic]

What's wrong with 2014-15 Rakitič-Busquets-Iniesta? All very good and/or WC players, probably the best in the world when it comes to instinctive one touch passing and moving the ball around faster than the opponent can follow, no shame in losing the battle to that midfield.

This year was a disgrace and you know it. 2015 was heartbreaking, but I was not ashamed of my team.

p.s. Please stop using smileys, they kind of make me wanna stop talking to you.

suits you because you post a bunch of semi-retarded rubbish.

Every available metric says 16-17 > 14-15

We scored more in both CL and Serie A. We finished with more points in Serie A. We had better goal differential in both CL and Serie A. We won more games in both CL and Serie A. Every available metric says this team performed better.

We lost both CL finals, so it's not really all that important, but what is important is to see that we've grown into a stronger and more dominant team.

 

[il brutto]

This Juve is better than the 2015 version and it's really not even close.

Hopefully we'll be able to even further improve this team. Exciting times ahead.

 

[pitbull]

suits you because you post a bunch of semi-retarded rubbish.

Every available metric says 16-17 > 14-15

We scored more in both CL and Serie A. We finished with more points in Serie A. We had better goal differential in both CL and Serie A. We won more games in both CL and Serie A. Every available metric says this team performed better.

We lost both CL finals, so it's not really all that important, but what is important is to see that we've grown into a stronger and more dominant team.

Stronger and more dominant against sides we can dominate. When we have to play second number and press more than usual we don't stand a chance with the lack of heart and muscles in our team.
Doesn't seem like it will change anytime soon, if we do spend ~120m on attacking options in this window and don't have funds for midfield, don't expect anything better next year, we'll still rely on Pjanič being both the creator and destroyer

 

[Post Ironic]

This Juve is better than the 2015 version and it's really not even close.

Hopefully we'll be able to even further improve this team. Exciting times ahead.

Some people have a strange obsession with deluding themselves into believing Marotta is weakening our squad every summer. I'm quite certain some members also believe last year's team was better than this year's team.

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Stronger and more dominant against sides we can dominate. When we have to play second number and press more than usual we don't stand a chance with the lack of heart and muscles in our team.
Doesn't seem like it will change anytime soon, if we do spend ~120m on attacking options in this window and don't have funds for midfield, don't expect anything better next year.

It was one half of fucking football. And both Pjanic and Mandzukic picked up knocks that left them hobbled for it. Yes, it was pathetic and terrible. I was appalled by it. But all the same. One half.

that you are so mentally deluded because we played one terrible half in an entire season.

And no, Barca was not some scrub team last year that was easy to dominate. They finished 3 points back of Real Madrid, had a 14 goal better differential than Madrid in La Liga and beat them in the head to head.

We crushed a very good (but obviously not great) Barca side. We crushed a Monaco team that had the most potent attack in Europe. We finished over 90 points in the strongest Serie A of this 6 scudetti run.

You're mentally challenged if you think we are some weak team that doesn't stand a chance against strong teams.

 

[Zacheryah]

Still a top team, unlike Barca with Mathieu in defense and Neymar/Suarez choking like they're Higuains sisters.

That's my point, 2015 was a physical team that couldn't get past weaker opponents with as much ease as 2017, but they surely wouldn't have given up after half the game played like 2017. You prefer stomping weaker teams and bending over against top teams, I'd rather have a balanced side.

What you are trying to say is that the 2017 team lacks a physical cm factor, which it had too much in 2015.


We agree on that. This is why we need a quality physical cm to finish the team

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The 2017 Juve with the 4231 was amazing and beautifull


Now imagine this exact same team, with exciting options like Douglas Costa and Bernadeschi, and a physical DM

 

[pitbull]

It was one half of fucking football. And both Pjanic and Mandzukic picked up knocks that left them hobbled for it. Yes, it was pathetic and terrible. I was appalled by it. But all the same. One half.

that you are so mentally deluded because we played one terrible half in an entire season.

And no, Barca was not some scrub team last year that was easy to dominate. They finished 3 points back of Real Madrid, had a 14 goal better differential than Madrid in La Liga and beat them in the head to head.

We crushed a very good (but obviously not great) Barca side. We crushed a Monaco team that had the most potent attack in Europe. We finished over 90 points in the strongest Serie A of this 6 scudetti run.

You're mentally challenged if you think we are some weak team that doesn't stand a chance against strong teams.

Ok, I've had enough, join my ignore list