[SPA] La Liga 2014/2015 (120 Viewers)

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,073
The advances in sport science have benefitted attackers more than defenders yes. It improved athletism above everything else. Things like speed, stamina, acceleration and so on which are basically attacking attributes. As you said, the rules have been slowly altered to favor attackers in the sense that they are now more protected from injuries which is only fair. And it is not just Messi and Ronaldo that benefitted from this. Look at other top players like Suarez, Cavani, Bale, Neymar. They are all machines. A decade ago Nedved was the only machine around now players are faster and fitter than they have ever been before. I m willing to bet that the average goals scored by a first team striker at a top club is higher than the average used to be a decade and certaintly 2 decades ago.

I think you are exaggerating the difference in rules and physicality over the last couple of decades. You don't get a card if you perform a sliding tackle and win the ball. You get a card if you get the man then the ball or the man without the ball. The only difference I can think of is the rule of two-legged sliding tackles and those are banned in the EPL and warrant an automatic red. I am not sure La liga and Serie A apply that rule.

You make it seem that every player back then was a Gentile or a Keane which I dont think is true. Gentile stands out because he was abnormally aggressive and going back a decade ago you had guys like Montero getting a red card every other game for being abnormally agressive. More leeway is given now perhaps but its not as large of a gap as you make it seem. DOnt take refereeing mistakes to be indicative of the rules. Maradona used his hand to win a worldcup.
Protected from injuries, certainly. But also protected from tackles, which makes it much easier to beat defenders. Defenders are much more tentative about sliding into difficult tackles now then even 10 years ago, let alone 15-20 years ago, as cards are produced for far less than at that time. I watched football all through the 90s. I won't say red card tackles today wouldn't even be fouls then, but the refs were an order of magnitude more lenient on defenders. Defenders still got reds, because the leniency was still pushed, as is always the case with rules. If refs allow more aggressive tackles, defenders push at that boundary to gain more of an advantage. Just like today, some defenders walk a fine line, bordering on what are now considered illegal tackles. But as I said, sliding tackles were much more a part of the game back then, and this certainly helped defenders stop the more athletic forwards and wing players.

I think you underestimate the number of yellows shown for dangerous tackles today, where defenders clearly win the ball, but take out the player in the process, or with the follow through. Refs are taught to favour the player being tackled, they're taught to call anything questionable, or that looks slightly dangerous. The letter of the law with regards to winning the ball first was very well applied back then, and pretty much anything went, as long as you made that play on the ball first. Now, you have to make the play on the ball, but also be very cautious about contact with the player as that happens, or in the follow through. Aside from this, tackles where you missed the ball were far less frequently carded.

We disagree. That's alright. I think, in part, the advances in sport science do benefit attackers, as that is where athleticism, agility, acceleration, etc are most effective, but I disagree on the extent of that benefit, and by no means consider it the reason for the current domination of attacking play. Is it a part of the reason, probably yes, but a small part in my opinion.

As an aside. I mentioned above that 11 of Messi's 40 league goals came in situations of 3+ goal leads. For comparison. Ronaldo's 1997 Barcelona campaign with 34 goals in 37 appearances... 4 of those goals came in 3+ goal lead situations. Stat-padding of that sort happened to a far lesser degree back then. I don't like it. Messi is a brilliant player, one of the best of all-time. C. Ronaldo is up there too. They don't need to be pressing for such meaningless stat-padding goals to cement their places in history. It doesn't add anything. I know that Messi scores goals 3 minutes into stoppage time in 6-0 blowouts. I know C. Ronaldo does the same. The stats look quite a bit closer when you adjust for those type of goals when teams have given up. Then you take into account the extent to which certain super-teams are created today and just how stacked they are, and it certainly helps Messi and C. Ronaldo too. This isn't to say that their weren't super teams in the 80s and 90s, there were, just not quite to the extent of today, football was much more competitive at the top, second-tier teams had a much easier time retaining star players.

I grew up watching Italian football in the 90s, so I favour physical and somewhat defensive-oriented football, with a high priority placed on tactics, and clinical finishing.

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Anyways. I was in a pissy mood last night. I apologize to you, Fred, and Osman. I disagree with your opinions, but that doesn't excuse me being an asshole about it. Sorry.
 

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Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
Protected from injuries, certainly. But also protected from tackles, which makes it much easier to beat defenders. Defenders are much more tentative about sliding into difficult tackles now then even 10 years ago, let alone 15-20 years ago, as cards are produced for far less than at that time. I watched football all through the 90s. I won't say red card tackles today wouldn't even be fouls then, but the refs were an order of magnitude more lenient on defenders. Defenders still got reds, because the leniency was still pushed, as is always the case with rules. If refs allow more aggressive tackles, defenders push at that boundary to gain more of an advantage. Just like today, some defenders walk a fine line, bordering on what are now considered illegal tackles. But as I said, sliding tackles were much more a part of the game back then, and this certainly helped defenders stop the more athletic forwards and wing players.

I think you underestimate the number of yellows shown for dangerous tackles today, where defenders clearly win the ball, but take out the player in the process, or with the follow through. Refs are taught to favour the player being tackled, they're taught to call anything questionable, or that looks slightly dangerous. The letter of the law with regards to winning the ball first was very well applied back then, and pretty much anything went, as long as you made that play on the ball first. Now, you have to make the play on the ball, but also be very cautious about contact with the player as that happens, or in the follow through. Aside from this, tackles where you missed the ball were far less frequently carded.

We disagree. That's alright. I think, in part, the advances in sport science do benefit attackers, as that is where athleticism, agility, acceleration, etc are most effective, but I disagree on the extent of that benefit, and by no means consider it the reason for the current domination of attacking play. Is it a part of the reason, probably yes, but a small part in my opinion.

As an aside. I mentioned above that 11 of Messi's 40 league goals came in situations of 3+ goal leads. For comparison. Ronaldo's 1997 Barcelona campaign with 34 goals in 37 appearances... 4 of those goals came in 3+ goal lead situations. Stat-padding of that sort happened to a far lesser degree back then. I don't like it. Messi is a brilliant player, one of the best of all-time. C. Ronaldo is up there too. They don't need to be pressing for such meaningless stat-padding goals to cement their places in history. It doesn't add anything. I know that Messi scores goals 3 minutes into stoppage time in 6-0 blowouts. I know C. Ronaldo does the same. The stats look quite a bit closer when you adjust for those type of goals when teams have given up. Then you take into account the extent to which certain super-teams are created today and just how stacked they are, and it certainly helps Messi and C. Ronaldo too. This isn't to say that their weren't super teams in the 80s and 90s, there were, just not quite to the extent of today, football was much more competitive at the top, second-tier teams had a much easier time retaining star players.

I grew up watching Italian football in the 90s, so I favour physical and somewhat defensive-oriented football, with a high priority placed on tactics, and clinical finishing.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways. I was in a pissy mood last night. I apologize to you, Fred, and Osman. I disagree with your opinions, but that doesn't excuse me being an asshole about it. Sorry.
No worries mate, no harm done :tup:

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Stop being so damned balanced and rational :D
Tell me about it :D
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,476
Protected from injuries, certainly. But also protected from tackles, which makes it much easier to beat defenders. Defenders are much more tentative about sliding into difficult tackles now then even 10 years ago, let alone 15-20 years ago, as cards are produced for far less than at that time. I watched football all through the 90s. I won't say red card tackles today wouldn't even be fouls then, but the refs were an order of magnitude more lenient on defenders. Defenders still got reds, because the leniency was still pushed, as is always the case with rules. If refs allow more aggressive tackles, defenders push at that boundary to gain more of an advantage. Just like today, some defenders walk a fine line, bordering on what are now considered illegal tackles. But as I said, sliding tackles were much more a part of the game back then, and this certainly helped defenders stop the more athletic forwards and wing players.

I think you underestimate the number of yellows shown for dangerous tackles today, where defenders clearly win the ball, but take out the player in the process, or with the follow through. Refs are taught to favour the player being tackled, they're taught to call anything questionable, or that looks slightly dangerous. The letter of the law with regards to winning the ball first was very well applied back then, and pretty much anything went, as long as you made that play on the ball first. Now, you have to make the play on the ball, but also be very cautious about contact with the player as that happens, or in the follow through. Aside from this, tackles where you missed the ball were far less frequently carded.

We disagree. That's alright. I think, in part, the advances in sport science do benefit attackers, as that is where athleticism, agility, acceleration, etc are most effective, but I disagree on the extent of that benefit, and by no means consider it the reason for the current domination of attacking play. Is it a part of the reason, probably yes, but a small part in my opinion.

As an aside. I mentioned above that 11 of Messi's 40 league goals came in situations of 3+ goal leads. For comparison. Ronaldo's 1997 Barcelona campaign with 34 goals in 37 appearances... 4 of those goals came in 3+ goal lead situations. Stat-padding of that sort happened to a far lesser degree back then. I don't like it. Messi is a brilliant player, one of the best of all-time. C. Ronaldo is up there too. They don't need to be pressing for such meaningless stat-padding goals to cement their places in history. It doesn't add anything. I know that Messi scores goals 3 minutes into stoppage time in 6-0 blowouts. I know C. Ronaldo does the same. The stats look quite a bit closer when you adjust for those type of goals when teams have given up. Then you take into account the extent to which certain super-teams are created today and just how stacked they are, and it certainly helps Messi and C. Ronaldo too. This isn't to say that their weren't super teams in the 80s and 90s, there were, just not quite to the extent of today, football was much more competitive at the top, second-tier teams had a much easier time retaining star players.

I grew up watching Italian football in the 90s, so I favour physical and somewhat defensive-oriented football, with a high priority placed on tactics, and clinical finishing.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways. I was in a pissy mood last night. I apologize to you, Fred, and Osman. I disagree with your opinions, but that doesn't excuse me being an asshole about it. Sorry.
No worries man its all good. :tup:
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,031
You enjoyed that didn't you? Fucking @Seven man, he's made that shit a reputation now :D

Even Voller, +repped me telling me that was funny :p
:D

Truth be told I don't know if you're rich or poor. If I had to guess I'd think you're upper middle class: not excessively wealthy, but money is not a concern. Oddly enough very close to my own reality.

You do have a very nouveau riche taste in football though :D.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
:D

Truth be told I don't know if you're rich or poor. If I had to guess I'd think you're upper middle class: not excessively wealthy, but money is not a concern. Oddly enough very close to my own reality.

You do have a very nouveau riche taste in football though :D.
Well it's too late for that now :p
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,031
Right... So the advances in sport science have only benefitted the attackers... Somehow the defenders have gotten worse.

Ridiculous. The rules of the game have continuously been tweaked for the last 15-20 years to favour attacking play. Even the fact every "potentially" dangerous tackle is now carded. Pre-2000 you'd rarely see a card issued for slide tackles that defenders got ball and took out the player as well, in fact you'd rarely see a card at all. Now, you can win the ball, but if you take out the player, it's almost an automatic card and free kick/penalty. It doesn't matter if you made a play on the ball. Sliding tackles are basically being eliminated from the game slowly. Hence the disappearance of the ball-winning Central-Defensive Mid. They're becoming a rare bird these days. Hence the reason defenders slide into tackles so much less frequently. They've almost eliminated one of the most valuable skills in a defender's arsenal.

It's ridiculous that you think advances in sport science would favour only Messi and Ronaldo, and allow them to run riot over defences. Everyone has the benefit. Rule changes are what allows them to destroy defences.

And as an aside. Messi has scored 11 of his 40 La Liga goals with a 3+ goal lead. 9 of those have come at 75' or later in matches, against mostly the worst teams in La Liga. 11 of 40. That's over 25% completely meaningless goals.

You guys talk about entertainment value. But entertainment value is having some kind of competitive parity. Or at least the semblance of it. That's why North American sports are so entertaining. Because teams can go from top to bottom in a year, and back again, without being destroyed by the financial repercussions of missing CL. A soft salary cap+transfer cap would certainly do football good. 8-0 against a team that has maybe a 1-2 mil transfer kitty. Yeah. Very entertaining. :rofl:

This works in a close relatively small competition consisting of only big teams. If you were to implement such a system, you'd have to make the Champions League the only competition in Europe IMO.
 

Bianconero_Aus

Beppe Marotta Is My God
May 26, 2009
78,607
:D

Truth be told I don't know if you're rich or poor. If I had to guess I'd think you're upper middle class: not excessively wealthy, but money is not a concern. Oddly enough very close to my own reality.

You do have a very nouveau riche taste in football though :D.
I love Fred, he's the shit, but yes his choice in football teams sure does suck :D
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
23,165
Rakitic on 7m lol. He is good, but not worth 7m per year imho. Especially since Modric earns 4.5m, superior player and fundamental for Real's organization of the play.
 

R.A.B.

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2009
525
Rakitic on 7m lol. He is good, but not worth 7m per year imho. Especially since Modric earns 4.5m, superior player and fundamental for Real's organization of the play.
Modrić is on low wages considering his importance. Rakitić high wages but Bale plays not even on half his earning level
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,840
There are reports that Ancelotti will be obliged to go full force vs Valencia this weekened at bernabeu. If Barcelona wins, a lose or a tie in madrid will seal the title for them.

Ancelotti is fearing to end empty handed this season taking in consideration Barcelona´s form and a potential clasico in the final of the CL which they have the odds against. So he will try to clinch to every throphy posible and that means full effort this weekend.

Valencia is fighting for the third spot in the league and have been preparing the game without european commitments, unlike RM

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Edit: victory from barcelona and a madrid failure almost seals the title
 

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