[SPA] La Liga 2008/2009 (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter JCK
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Cobblers: football is about the fans, the fans are the people, and people are the society they live in. There are times when a club must make a stance for their fans. And in a case of a club like Barça their very existance is because of these fans, they are it's life blood both finacially and politically.
Nobody is going to buy any merchandise from a club they don't like. Lets not confuse computer products and services with sporting clubs. When searching for computer products, you demand the best product you can find for the cheapest price, as that is the whole purpose of capitalism. While with football clubs, subjectivity and territorial matters come into play.
If you've been an IBM client all your life and they start selling the worst products on the market, you'll only continue buying from them if you're an idiot. With football clubs you become attached through emotions and support, something that doesn't happen with computer products unless you've clearly lost it.
You can't have a successful club without a good fan base. So yes, the fans equal the club. The club depends on the fans to support them.
If you've been an IBM client all your life and they start selling the worst products on the market, you'll only continue buying from them if you're an idiot. With football clubs you become attached through emotions and support, something that doesn't happen with computer products unless you've clearly lost it.
You can't have a successful club without a good fan base. So yes, the fans equal the club. The club depends on the fans to support them.
Will one counter example do? Have you ever met Apple fans? No, I did not say customers, I said fans, supporters. Maybe IBM doesn't have them, Apple does.
They will buy Apple products no matter what they are. Seriously. And if they get let down they will still always buy the Apple product first, before getting something else.
You seem to think that tribal attitudes only exists in sports and that's a fallacy. They are much more widespread than that.
That is not the point. Yes, the club falls apart if the fans don't support it. So does a company if the clients (or fans) desert it.
The point here is that "the club" is a fictional entity. It doesn't really exist. The people who ran the club 50 years ago aren't there anymore. Not a single person remains. The only thing that remains is the badge, the name, the brand. Now, if someone says to me "you should respect Barcelona for their historical whatever", my question is "Barcelona who?". The people who worked for the club back then? The fans back then? The players? Which "Barcelona"?
As long as we're talking football the symbolic idea of a club will suffice, because we all agree that's what it means, even though we know that one group of players doesn't equal another. But this is the only way to keep score. But when you start talking politics, social issues etc I'm not satisfied with a badge. A badge doesn't do anything.
They will buy Apple products no matter what they are. Seriously. And if they get let down they will still always buy the Apple product first, before getting something else.
You seem to think that tribal attitudes only exists in sports and that's a fallacy. They are much more widespread than that.
That is not the point. Yes, the club falls apart if the fans don't support it. So does a company if the clients (or fans) desert it.
The point here is that "the club" is a fictional entity. It doesn't really exist. The people who ran the club 50 years ago aren't there anymore. Not a single person remains. The only thing that remains is the badge, the name, the brand. Now, if someone says to me "you should respect Barcelona for their historical whatever", my question is "Barcelona who?". The people who worked for the club back then? The fans back then? The players? Which "Barcelona"?
As long as we're talking football the symbolic idea of a club will suffice, because we all agree that's what it means, even though we know that one group of players doesn't equal another. But this is the only way to keep score. But when you start talking politics, social issues etc I'm not satisfied with a badge. A badge doesn't do anything.
I've never really met a true "Apple fan", where all they do is talk about Apple products while fiddling with their favorite Apple toys. Many people do buy Apple products, but that's more due to the fact they're cool electronics and materialists want to show off among friends. A fad, so to speak. So "fans" of Apple are not really true fans, but delusional people who will end up doing themselves harm by not buying the better product.
Contrast this to football where there are thousands of clubs across the world. If football clubs were similar to Apple or Microsoft, then only Real Madrid, AC Milan and Manure United would exist.
Football is obviously much more than that. You seem to be forgetting that for millions around the world, football is their pastime, or perhaps all they have. All you need is a friggin' ball, not a $24857473733 iPod.
Social issues? Politics? Hah, tell that to the fans at the Dinamo Zagreb - Red Star Belgrade riot, the match that basically symbolizes the start of the Croatian War of Independence. You seem to be out of touch with how much football means to some people, or a people(s), where almost everything they do is based on that one beautiful game.
A badge might not mean anything to you, but in some cases it does symbolize a group effort in one quest or another.
Contrast this to football where there are thousands of clubs across the world. If football clubs were similar to Apple or Microsoft, then only Real Madrid, AC Milan and Manure United would exist.
Football is obviously much more than that. You seem to be forgetting that for millions around the world, football is their pastime, or perhaps all they have. All you need is a friggin' ball, not a $24857473733 iPod.
Social issues? Politics? Hah, tell that to the fans at the Dinamo Zagreb - Red Star Belgrade riot, the match that basically symbolizes the start of the Croatian War of Independence. You seem to be out of touch with how much football means to some people, or a people(s), where almost everything they do is based on that one beautiful game.
A badge might not mean anything to you, but in some cases it does symbolize a group effort in one quest or another.
I'm gonna drop the Apple thing cause I can't be bothered to pursue this.
What remains is the question who is getting credit for what. So long as you assign credit to a brand name, what does that mean? The brand itself is obviously not responsible for anything.
What you and Lion are saying here is that a club cannot be "complete" (to use a vague term) without fans. That is not to say that fans cannot be complete entities without a club. In so much as the followers of a club perform an action it is not the club that deserve the credit.
Otherwise it would be necessary to conclude that any and all actions in the context of juventuz, that is of supporting a club, automatically accrue credit to Juventus FC. This is clearly absurd.
What remains is the question who is getting credit for what. So long as you assign credit to a brand name, what does that mean? The brand itself is obviously not responsible for anything.
What you and Lion are saying here is that a club cannot be "complete" (to use a vague term) without fans. That is not to say that fans cannot be complete entities without a club. In so much as the followers of a club perform an action it is not the club that deserve the credit.
Otherwise it would be necessary to conclude that any and all actions in the context of juventuz, that is of supporting a club, automatically accrue credit to Juventus FC. This is clearly absurd.
Of course. Except that at least it makes more sense to talk about some group of people in terms of the country they belong to. A person must necessarily be part of a country, it's not a voluntary choice. Besides, the country designates the territory where you live, determines the conditions of your life, the language you speak etc etc.
Andy, the fans can obviously individually or collectively belive whatever they want. They can choose to view a club as a symbol for themselves.
However, officially at least, I do not believe clubs should get involved.
If you grew up in Scotland with Rangers (Loyalist/Protestant) and Celtic (Republican/Catholic) with their agendas, you would probably feel different about the matter.
However, officially at least, I do not believe clubs should get involved.
If you grew up in Scotland with Rangers (Loyalist/Protestant) and Celtic (Republican/Catholic) with their agendas, you would probably feel different about the matter.
Real Betis midfielder, Juanma, declared today that even though Barcelona are the best side in Europe, they have to lose at some point.
Los Verdiblancos meet the Catalans this weekend at the Manuel Ruiz de Lopera and the Seville side will be out to end Barca's undefeated streak, according to Juanma.
"They are very difficult opponents because they are the best team in Spain and in Europe, but some day they have to lose," he told Marca.
"We already made it difficult for them in the first meeting and now we want to beat them. Beating Sevilla in their own stadium has given us a great boost of confidence.
"By the way they play, Barcelona will have a lot of possession and create plenty of chances, so we must be prepared to play together and to work hard in defence on our concentration. We must make sure they do not feel comfortable."
Certainly the Manuel Ruiz de Lopera can be a daunting stadium and Betis have played some good matches there so far this season.
Juanma knows that with the players Barcelona have they will be tough opponents - and he believes Lionel Messi in particular will prove troublesome.
"If I had to choose a Barcelona player to not play on Saturday, it would be Messi, as he is the most dangerous. When he plays we have problems," he mused.
On the other hand, Betis will have their own superstar, Ricardo Oliveira, present - and Juanma praised the Brazilian striker.
"He gives you many options and goals, like he has shown at other teams, and with him Betis improve in effectiveness, something we have missed at times," he concluded.
Source: http://www.betisweb.com/foro/showthread.php?t=48140
Firmly support the underdog for this one ...
Los Verdiblancos meet the Catalans this weekend at the Manuel Ruiz de Lopera and the Seville side will be out to end Barca's undefeated streak, according to Juanma.
"They are very difficult opponents because they are the best team in Spain and in Europe, but some day they have to lose," he told Marca.
"We already made it difficult for them in the first meeting and now we want to beat them. Beating Sevilla in their own stadium has given us a great boost of confidence.
"By the way they play, Barcelona will have a lot of possession and create plenty of chances, so we must be prepared to play together and to work hard in defence on our concentration. We must make sure they do not feel comfortable."
Certainly the Manuel Ruiz de Lopera can be a daunting stadium and Betis have played some good matches there so far this season.
Juanma knows that with the players Barcelona have they will be tough opponents - and he believes Lionel Messi in particular will prove troublesome.
"If I had to choose a Barcelona player to not play on Saturday, it would be Messi, as he is the most dangerous. When he plays we have problems," he mused.
On the other hand, Betis will have their own superstar, Ricardo Oliveira, present - and Juanma praised the Brazilian striker.
"He gives you many options and goals, like he has shown at other teams, and with him Betis improve in effectiveness, something we have missed at times," he concluded.
Source: http://www.betisweb.com/foro/showthread.php?t=48140
Firmly support the underdog for this one ...
back to football, barca losing 2-1 at Betis right now, Messi on for the 2nd half. Barca passing the ball around very well, but defensively they're getting ripped apart on the counter. Eto'o'o'o'o frankly should have scored after the restart, but Betis have also had chances to put the game to bed. They also had a very nice goal from the counter ruled out (correctly) for offsides
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