Serie B: Cesena vs Juventus [05-06-2007] (12 Viewers)

[Badass J Elkann]

he dont know what he is talking about , best thing thats happened to juve since sacking ancelotti

sorry i guess u were in a state of depression wen ancelotti left, o wait why wud u care, ur a barca fan, ive never had to attack u for this b4, and i know many others have, but i understand y now, and on a few occasions b4 ive actually defended u, now i take that back hope u one day actually look deep into your heart and find a proper team that you truely support, not one that your liver tells u to to support or your kidney's

 

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[Mike-e-y]

he dont know what he is talking about , best thing thats happened to juve since sacking ancelotti

its a puzzler isnt it lol

yes im serious, and frankly speaking like i said i wud rather face a team whos more open to attack like milan or utd than sum1 conservative and ultra defensive with extra grit to cover that extra inch like albinoleffe yes, this is football not fifa, whats on paper is irrelivent

look i get your point that you would rather play an attacking team than a defensive team but your example was quite ridiculous, with our squad i dont think we could compete with milan at the moment, they would just destroy us, you should have said napoli instead in which case i am in agreement.

as for whats on paper is irrelevant that is not entirely true, paper dont win football matches but it gives foundations for victory, if brazil played costa rica week in week out you would very rarely find a positive costa rica result

 

[Badass J Elkann]

please, biri is rubbish

ok.... but i wont be cheering him like a saviour for doing what i expected him to do, im not fickle like some people, if i dont like someone then i dont like them im not one to change my opinion in the blink of an eye as you can see of my comments on DD since christmas when he proved to me that he doesnt have what it takes. and in my eyes, if we are promoted all my praise will be directed at the players

and like someone suggested , who is it that motivates these players every week to face these negative teams? - didi like every team work or football etc... every team needs its managers to lead them and guide them and to motivate them, and that man is didi, not bojinov, not paro, but didi i dont know what u expected from him this season were it be 10-0 walk overs every week or automatic promotion by now, but whatever it is, didi has basically got us promoted which was our objective, it was never meant to be easy, but its done, what happened in serie B will have no reflection on didi in serie A once we are there, may we have the right to truely judge him

 

[Badass J Elkann]

its a puzzler isnt it lol



look i get your point that you would rather play an attacking team than a defensive team but your example was quite ridiculous, with our squad i dont think we could compete with milan at the moment, they would just destroy us, you should have said napoli instead in which case i am in agreement.

as for whats on paper is irrelevant that is not entirely true, paper dont win football matches but it gives foundations for victory, if brazil played costa rica week in week out you would very rarely find a positive costa rica result

no cuz napoli were just as defensive and if not more physical than albinoleffe were and had the same grit to really push for a result against us, and never sat back than a team like milan wud. like i said, strength on paper is nothing, its whats on the pitch that matters, and a strong mentality overcomes fears of better quality opponents

 

[ReBeL]

why are you talking about DD as if hes a legend? everyone deserves to be criticised and DD is no exeption, im not INSULTING him as when ever i call him names i am just venting my frustrations which i am more than entitled to do, the same goes for everyone else

Because he is a legend in any juventino's mind IMO. Who is the coach that accepted to coach Juve even in Serie C?? Only DD. WHo is the coach that refused to be his national team's coach to be Juve coach?? Only DD, and here's the difference between him and your Lippi. Lippi didn't propose to take Juve's lead last summer. You'll tell me that he needed rest. So what?? Do we have to wait for him until he is in the mood to coach to get him?? Do we have to sack our loyal coach just because Lippi wants to play his Juve toy again??

Having been a football spectator for fifty years, I think I've now seen enough to realize that perhaps the one equation in football that has a much more powerful influence than any other is the manager/coach appointment.

I agree with you very much on most of your points, mate, but I've never thought you're that old:dazed:

 

[ReBeL]

and in my eyes, if we are promoted all my praise will be directed at the players

So, here is the deal: If we're promoted, you'll praise the players.
If we're not promoted, you'll consider it as DD's fault...

Fair enough to me.

 

[Marc]

RIGHT! ive f*cking had it with the slating of didi, quite frankly hes the best thing thats happened to juve since sacking ancelotti we're top of the table yet you moan, we drop a few points cuz of a injury hit squad and yet u slate him, im sick of all this 'lippi wud of done this better' or 'lippi wud of played this formation' F*CKING GET OVER HIM! cuz even if i had to choose between lippi or didi now, id stick by the current manager, i think what he has done cudnt of been done better, obviously some of u football manager addicts think otherwise, injury crisis are real, not save game and start it again and win it, and quite frankly id rather play milan 7 times in 1 week than albinoleffe once in one week, the psychology involved with these serie B teams is different, these teams in serie B are out to achieve damage limitation where by all 11 players play behind the ball and make it harder for us, unlike a team of milan's quality these serie B teams have that extra 110% to try and beat us, simply cuz we r juve. so m_elayyan please shut up and worry about rijkaard, and ill keep cheering on didi till the end. some of you need to think about where your loyalty lies with our manager who has wiped out our penalty point deduction, taken us top, developed some promising talent, and is only a few points away from the promise land and yet you guys still moan as if serie B shud be a walk over, some of u need to start to wake up and smell the reality, when we reach serie A it will be a totally different ball game and didi will finally shut u all up.

This may be the only time I agree with you, but spot on. I cannot stand the fact that some people cannot accept we tied one freaking match.

It's not that black and white, Mike. No pun intended there by the way !!

DD certainly takes his share of the blame for any shortfall in the Juventus quality of football, whether it is because of tactical or formation errors, lack of motivation, poor substitutions and so on. No one will deny that.

The difficulty is in determining the culpability of the players who might or might not be carrying out their instructions/responsibilties prooperly (marking/quality of passing/tracking back/finding space/making intelligent runs/shooting accuracy and so on).

Having been a football spectator for fifty years, I think I've now seen enough to realize that perhaps the one equation in football that has a much more powerful influence than any other is the manager/coach appointment. It is crucial.

Take Roy Keane at Sunderland. You knew, instinctively and intuitively, that he would be a complete success from day one when he took up the appointment at the Stadium of Light last year. Because he is a winner, you just know that he will be successful in helping to preserve the Premiership status at the club next season without any shadow of doubt. Indeed, I will predict that Sunderland will qualify for European football by the end of next season.

Does DD inspire you in the same way? Probably not.

Nevertheless, we have to look at the Juventus circumstances and accept that he inherited a terrible problem in the loss of eight experienced international players. He had to work with an unstable personnel against an uncertain financial background. Motivating Buffon, Trezeguet, Nedved and Camoranesi to play over 40 Serie B matches over 9 months must have taken an enormous physical and emotional strain whilst having to overcome the uncertainties of the ultimate points deduction and so on.

More recently, with the position much altered, esp. the financial picture seemingly much brighter and the club sitting on top of the league, you would expect us to win virtually every match, and rightly so as we have much superior players. Every now and again, we come unstuck at Mantova, Brescia and the like beacuse in addition to the Juventus match being their greatest match for , in some cases, decades (though not Brescia obviously) , they sometimes play with a tactical sharpness that will surprise even the best football brains. These things happen.
History tells you this.

The next two player acquisitions will be the most important announcments that the club will make for a long time and will have enormous medium term consequences on player morale, future qualification for the Champions League and more importantly an immediate sense of belief that we intend to be the pre-eminent club in Italy over the next decade.

All that said, I have a feeling that Didier Deschamps will be unhappy at the continued speculation about his mangerial effectiveness. The complaints seeming to be growing in number and I have a sneaking feeling that, born out of his bitter disappointment to the reaction to the relative success achieved this season, he might well be tewmpted to take flight to Olympic Lyonnais or Chelsea or the like sooner rather than later.

How old are you?

Great post by the way.

 

[Maher]

Does DD inspire you in the same way? Probably not
this describe it all

 

[Mike-e-y]

and like someone suggested , who is it that motivates these players every week to face these negative teams? - didi like every team work or football etc... every team needs its managers to lead them and guide them and to motivate them, and that man is didi, not bojinov, not paro, but didi i dont know what u expected from him this season were it be 10-0 walk overs every week or automatic promotion by now, but whatever it is, didi has basically got us promoted which was our objective, it was never meant to be easy, but its done, what happened in serie B will have no reflection on didi in serie A once we are there, may we have the right to truely judge him

well in my eyes hes not really done that job, all i see from him when he comes out in the press is a defeatist atitude, he especially frustrates me when we get negative results and he says,'content with the point' / 'a good performance' i want to see someone with a bit of balls who isnt afraid to throw a tantrum, all the best managers are capable of this: see mourinho, capello, lipp, ferguson etc.

the players are mainly responsible, as you say when teams play us they give 110% and have the right mentality, but i want to see our players with this mentaltiy and i dont think DD has given them it so far.

and as for the 2nd point bolded i expected the latter, i did not expect a perfect record etc but im never the type of person to settle for a draw or even pretend im happy about it, i want us to win EVERY game so obviously if we dont then im disappointed

no cuz napoli were just as defensive and if not more physical than albinoleffe were and had the same grit to really push for a result against us, and never sat back than a team like milan wud. like i said, strength on paper is nothing, its whats on the pitch that matters, and a strong mentality overcomes fears of better quality opponents

well milan would hammer us and thats all there is to it. im with you on the strong mentality bit, but tell me, our team with a strong mentality should have no problems, then why have we had so many if DD is this brillian manager that your portraying him as?

 

[Badass J Elkann]

Does DD inspire you in the same way? Probably not
this describe it all

wtf r u on about now? didnt i tell u to worry about rijkaard?

didi has lead his men the way i expected - the right way, i dont think lippi cud of done a better job, if you guys seriously thought 10-0 walk overs every week u need to stop taking football manager seriously as i can only praise didi to having to motivate his men every match to get a result, sumthing thats not easy for a team like juve in the 2nd division, for sum1 who can motivate his team enough to get us clear at the top after that penalty deduction is sumthing that only good managers have, which is why milan struggled to clear their points as did fiorentina and lazio for a bit, thats the difference gentlemen!

 

[Luftwaffles]

I'm 56 Mark

 

[RAMI-N]

This may be the only time I agree with you, but spot on. I cannot stand the fact that some people cannot accept we tied one freaking match.

we drew 1 match?! I guess u forgot to add 0 coz they r 10

 

[Badass J Elkann]

well in my eyes hes not really done that job, all i see from him when he comes out in the press is a defeatist atitude, he especially frustrates me when we get negative results and he says,'content with the point' / 'a good performance' i want to see someone with a bit of balls who isnt afraid to throw a tantrum, all the best managers are capable of this: see mourinho, capello, lipp, ferguson etc.

the players are mainly responsible, as you say when teams play us they give 110% and have the right mentality, but i want to see our players with this mentaltiy and i dont think DD has given them it so far.

and as for the 2nd point bolded i expected the latter, i did not expect a perfect record etc but im never the type of person to settle for a draw or even pretend im happy about it, i want us to win EVERY game so obviously if we dont then im disappointed



well milan would hammer us and thats all there is to it. im with you on the strong mentality bit, but tell me, our team with a strong mentality should have no problems, then why have we had so many if DD is this brillian manager that your portraying him as?

a team is only as good as by the manger that leads them, trust me i know since im doing a management course and ive had to manage teams, to motivate them, to guide them its down to the managers to deploy his team the best way possible not the players, they players only take the orders and complete them under the guidance of didi

and i suppose for sure milan wud hammer us?

if didi was that bad, i guess it must of been luck for him to have taken a mediocre team like monaco and take them to the finals of the cl that is an achievment that nobody can take away from him, the motivation he gave to his players to beat a team far superior like chelsea is undoubtable.

if its didi who u think has a defeatist atitude, then i guess ur no better, didi has a reason to be like this, and thats cuz he doesnt want his players to get arrogant and thats where the slip happens, he wants his players to beleive in their own ability and to be hungry every match, not to go in with that horrible atitude of that we're superior this shud be easy, hence his defeatist atitude, and to me thats clever and has so far worked

 

[Mike-e-y]

Because he is a legend in any juventino's mind IMO. Who is the coach that accepted to coach Juve even in Serie C?? Only DD. WHo is the coach that refused to be his national team's coach to be Juve coach?? Only DD, and here's the difference between him and your Lippi. Lippi didn't propose to take Juve's lead last summer. You'll tell me that he needed rest. So what?? Do we have to wait for him until he is in the mood to coach to get him?? Do we have to sack our loyal coach just because Lippi wants to play his Juve toy again??

well, you obviously attribute legend status rather easily... look dont get me wrong i am very greatful to him for taking over under such uncertain circumstances, there are not many coaches who would have done the same and this deserves respect, and at the time i loved him, i dont care about whether or not lippi wanted to manage us, thats not even my point here all im saying is that lippi is a better manager and i want the best for juve, in the end this club is a business and in business you cant make choices based on emotions the choices have to be in the clubs best interests from here on out otherwise we'll end up never being able to patch the gaping holes up that we have been left with

So, here is the deal: If we're promoted, you'll praise the players.
If we're not promoted, you'll consider it as DD's fault...

Fair enough to me.

no, if we are not promoted i will blame the players also as they are the ones who have played the season, as i say in my eyes apart from the opening 10 games DD has failed to keep a balance within the team

This may be the only time I agree with you, but spot on. I cannot stand the fact that some people cannot accept we tied one freaking match.

mark i wish you would understand that its not just about tieing one match, its the 10 draws and 2 losses which are really frustrating, i expected a lot better than this, if you treated it as 'just one match' it would add up to a lot more

 

[Mike-e-y]

a team is only as good as by the manger that leads them, trust me i know since im doing a management course and ive had to manage teams, to motivate them, to guide them its down to the managers to deploy his team the best way possible not the players, they players only take the orders and complete them under the guidance of didi

and i suppose for sure milan wud hammer us?

if didi was that bad, i guess it must of been luck for him to have taken a mediocre team like monaco and take them to the finals of the cl that is an achievment that nobody can take away from him, the motivation he gave to his players to beat a team far superior like chelsea is undoubtable.

if its didi who u think has a defeatist atitude, then i guess ur no better, didi has a reason to be like this, and thats cuz he doesnt want his players to get arrogant and thats where the slip happens, he wants his players to beleive in their own ability and to be hungry every match, not to go in with that horrible atitude of that we're superior this shud be easy, hence his defeatist atitude, and to me thats clever and has so far worked

good for you, i am also doing a management course and have had to manage teams on a number of occasions so i know what management is about which allows me to be in a position to make a judgement. regardless of what you think the players have their own mind and make their own decisions and DD has not been able to influence any of the games during this season this is my point, when has he ever made a substitution that has changed the game, when has he ever changed the system to cause the opposition problems? never

all the best teams have an aura of arrogence about them, you just need to find the balance, he has not given the players that determination to prove they are better and it seems like on too many occasions we are cruising, you may believe it has worked but i dont agree, i think it has failed

 

[Badass J Elkann]

well, you obviously attribute legend status rather easily... look dont get me wrong i am very greatful to him for taking over under such uncertain circumstances, there are not many coaches who would have done the same and this deserves respect, and at the time i loved him, i dont care about whether or not lippi wanted to manage us, thats not even my point here all im saying is that lippi is a better manager and i want the best for juve, in the end this club is a business and in business you cant make choices based on emotions the choices have to be in the clubs best interests from here on out otherwise we'll end up never being able to patch the gaping holes up that we have been left with



no, if we are not promoted i will blame the players also as they are the ones who have played the season, as i say in my eyes apart from the opening 10 games DD has failed to keep a balance within the team



mark i wish you would understand that its not just about tieing one match, its the 10 draws and 2 losses which are really frustrating, i expected a lot better than this, if you treated it as 'just one match' it would add up to a lot more

10 draws = 10 points = debt cleared plus 1 point

 

[Mike-e-y]

10 draws = 10 points = debt cleared plus 1 point

lol in 10 games, what a pace that is... WOW!

 

[sateeh]

great post by Mike Da Don , unfortunitly guys who say the DD is great dont see the big picture , they are happy that we are leading serie B but we are thinking ahead of them , is this enough to lead or at least to let juve in the top 4 , i dont think so

i know i will regret replying you later but i just can't stand and watch.

Are you looking at the bigger picture when changing coaches ? I want you to go now and count how many teams that gained promotion and changed their coaches actually did well.Just check the ratio and you will find that continuity is one of the biggest keys to success.

And its not like we have mmm "you" as coach, this is a coach that worked well with the team, a few patches here and there and we will be alright.

first off i'm not compaining about his use of zala, im complaining about his use of 2 out and out strikers in a 4-3-3 system, which lacks width you need 1 CF and two forwards willing to get down the wings and track back, apparently he worked his socks off and respect to the guy, that doesnt change his charechteristics, he still isnt as able in tht role as palla or boji.

im sure he didnt and your point doesnt change the fact we had 5 defenders and 2 midfielders on the pitch, but why bring one of your only natural midfielders off? even then boji could have come on, he has played down the right before and hes done a good job, biri should have been replaced by balza then palla should have replaced the forward who was playing the worst and gone down the left.

i apreciate tht the midfield was decimated, which again makes me question why no one was brought in in january but we cant hide behind excuses as we could still have fielded a good team even under these circumstances, the bench however would not have been very strong.

why are you talking about DD as if hes a legend? everyone deserves to be criticised and DD is no exeption, im not INSULTING him as when ever i call him names i am just venting my frustrations which i am more than entitled to do, the same goes for everyone else

First of all Zalayeta is NOT an out and out striker as you call him, he can be played there but thats one of his weaknesses when he plays in the 442 as hes always dropping deep or drifting to the side when he shouldn't.I agree with you that he wasn't the right man for the job but apparently Palladino wasn't fit to play, so the obvious choice would be zala over Boji who hasn't played much.

About the Balza sub, am i the only one that thought it was a good one? It changed the formation to the more stable 442 so we can hold possession more and build something.And we did, but by that time our key players were too tired and the Cesena defense was shut.

abt the transfers, its not DD's fault.You think they gave him the option and he said No?

Sorry mate but my argument was in the midfield and why was the burden on marchisio to do the defending when there are Venticcui and Bianco who could do it better?
Which would've pushed marchionni out wide instead of the midfield.Although he did well in that free position

Also i didn't see anyone giving DD credit for placing Chiellini on the left instead of a more attacking balza.Giorgio kept a dangerous PapaWaigo relatively quiet for the whole night and only got away once when he got that cross in that should've been cleared but resulted in a goal.

buffon
biri legro boum chiellini
marchionni marchisio nedved
del piero trezeguet zalayeta

and this is an UNFAMILIAR 8 man attack

as you said marchisio is not a destroyer so he needs help in the middle, instead he occupied the middle on his own, vinmans formation, which is the best we could have played yesterday would have given him support and the players would be in familiar positions, so thank you for making a point for the people you are disagreeing with

we would've been raped with that formation, pure suicide.No cover to a shaky defense, and total disregard to a team that attacks well on the counter in Cesena.


On another note, although this performance was bad i thought the Frosinone game was worst and by a large mile.We didn't deserve to lose this but imo we did deserve to lose that game

 

[Marc]

wtf r u on about now? didnt i tell u to worry about rijkaard?

didi has lead his men the way i expected - the right way, i dont think lippi cud of done a better job, if you guys seriously thought 10-0 walk overs every week u need to stop taking football manager seriously as i can only praise didi to having to motivate his men every match to get a result, sumthing thats not easy for a team like juve in the 2nd division, for sum1 who can motivate his team enough to get us clear at the top after that penalty deduction is sumthing that only good managers have, which is why milan struggled to clear their points as did fiorentina and lazio for a bit, thats the difference gentlemen!

I agree 100 %. Don´t look at the point deduction and you will realise that this is the 2nd best Juventus season in the last 20 years. Only last season we accumulated more points.

I'm 56 Mark

we drew 1 match?! I guess u forgot to add 0 coz they r 10

We won 25 games. :eyebrows:

mark i wish you would understand that its not just about tieing one match, its the 10 draws and 2 losses which are really frustrating, i expected a lot better than this, if you treated it as 'just one match' it would add up to a lot more

Mike that is the same example as this: You see a half glass of bear - Will you say it is half empty or half full? You should underastand that we won 25 matches, which makes 68% of our games were won.

a team is only as good as by the manger that leads them, trust me i know since im doing a management course and ive had to manage teams, to motivate them, to guide them its down to the managers to deploy his team the best way possible not the players, they players only take the orders and complete them under the guidance of didi

and i suppose for sure milan wud hammer us?

if didi was that bad, i guess it must of been luck for him to have taken a mediocre team like monaco and take them to the finals of the cl that is an achievment that nobody can take away from him, the motivation he gave to his players to beat a team far superior like chelsea is undoubtable.

if its didi who u think has a defeatist atitude, then i guess ur no better, didi has a reason to be like this, and thats cuz he doesnt want his players to get arrogant and thats where the slip happens, he wants his players to beleive in their own ability and to be hungry every match, not to go in with that horrible atitude of that we're superior this shud be easy, hence his defeatist atitude, and to me thats clever and has so far worked

 

[Mike-e-y]

First of all Zalayeta is NOT an out and out striker as you call him, he can be played there but thats one of his weaknesses when he plays in the 442 as hes always dropping deep or drifting to the side when he shouldn't.I agree with you that he wasn't the right man for the job but apparently Palladino wasn't fit to play, so the obvious choice would be zala over Boji who hasn't played much.

About the Balza sub, am i the only one that thought it was a good one? It changed the formation to the more stable 442 so we can hold possession more and build something.And we did, but by that time our key players were too tired and the Cesena defense was shut.

abt the transfers, its not DD's fault.You think they gave him the option and he said No?

Sorry mate but my argument was in the midfield and why was the burden on marchisio to do the defending when there are Venticcui and Bianco who could do it better?
Which would've pushed marchionni out wide instead of the midfield.Although he did well in that free position

Also i didn't see anyone giving DD credit for placing Chiellini on the left instead of a more attacking balza.Giorgio kept a dangerous PapaWaigo relatively quiet for the whole night and only got away once when he got that cross in that should've been cleared but resulted in a goal.


we would've been raped with that formation, pure suicide.No cover to a shaky defense, and total disregard to a team that attacks well on the counter in Cesena.


On another note, although this performance was bad i thought the Frosinone game was worst and by a large mile.We didn't deserve to lose this but imo we did deserve to lose that game

well in my eyes he is an out and out striker, he does not have the attributes to be anything else.

i dont know how it changed it to a 442 when hes a defender and he was brought on for a midfielder, it just seems tht there were a lot of ppl out of position

why would he be given credit for starting chiellini on the left? now we have 2 centrebacks thats where he plays, i dont think there was really any other option, he would never leave chiellini out of the squad.

so with a more solid midfield we would have put more pressure on the defence? i really dont get that reasoning at all, a 4-3-3 is more vulenerable to counters than a 4-4-2

i agree we deserved to lose that game, we were poor