[SERIE A] JUVENTUS 1-1 Sampdoria (02/15/09) (1 Viewer)

[Salvatore]

Gazzetta rating our defenders equally to Camo

Btw, the more Pavel is playing CM the more I'm liking it.

I liked how he drifted centrally in the first half.

 

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[Alen]

The numbers are not the subject we are arguing about thou. We are arguing if the transfer targets were right or wrong, and if the stadium plans could be done later or not (Even if the steel prices are low), building a new stadium when you are in crisis and can't make extra funds for transfer or budget, when you just lost hundreds of millions isn't really a nice move. It's something extra, we could play in the "old" Delle Alpi. Sure we should have to renew it, since a decade ago, but not when you are in Serie B and when you need money desperately. I mean if you are even defending them for this, how can we agree in any point?

To even debate about the influence the new stadium has on our mercato you must wait for the summer mercato in 2009.


We need to know this:
1. How much will the stadium cost?
2. How much we payed at the start, how much we'll pay in 2009, how much we'll pay in 2010 and how much we'll pay in 2011 (that's when the deadline is set)
3. Who is "sponsoring" the stadium and what were his conditions?


In November 2008 Juventus announced that they will invest around €100 million to build a new stadium on the site of the old Delle Alpi ground. (November 2008, after the summer mercato). Usually, when you sell the name rights, the sponsor pays a good deal of the money. Emirates airlines payed 30% of the total sum invested in building the Emirates stadium.
In our case it will be 30m eur, which means that the other 70m will be invested in the next 2-3 years. If we divide the 70m by 3 you get 23m eur per year in 2009, 2010 and 2011.

So, this new stadium will take 23m eur from our budget in 2009 (it's my assumption, have in mind). If you're not satisfied with our 2009 mercato, then we can discuss these "23 million". But right now i don't think you have any grounds to criticize the project.
Secco said (yes, you don't have to trust him) that this summer we'll have the money to buy quality players. We will obviously have the money to start building a new stadium. Coincidently, all this comes at the same time when we're getting the CL money.

There you go, that's what i think about this.

 

[JCK]

no

 

[Snoop]

To even debate about the influence the new stadium has on our mercato you must wait for the summer mercato in 2009.


We need to know this:
1. How much will the stadium cost?
2. How much we payed at the start, how much we'll pay in 2009, how much we'll pay in 2010 and how much we'll pay in 2011 (that's when the deadline is set)
3. Who is "sponsoring" the stadium and what were his conditions?


In November 2008 Juventus announced that they will invest around €100 million to build a new stadium on the site of the old Delle Alpi ground. (November 2008, after the summer mercato). Usually, when you sell the name rights, the sponsor pays a good deal of the money. Emirates airlines payed 30% of the total sum invested in building the Emirates stadium.
In our case it will be 30m eur, which means that the other 70m will be invested in the next 2-3 years. If we divide the 70m by 3 you get 23m eur per year in 2009, 2010 and 2011.

So, this new stadium will take 23m eur from our budget in 2009 (it's my assumption, have in mind). If you're not satisfied with our 2009 mercato, then we can discuss these "23 million". But right now i don't think you have any grounds to criticize the project.
Secco said (yes, you don't have to trust him) that this summer we'll have the money to buy quality players. We will obviously have the money to start building a new stadium. Coincidently, all this comes at the same time when we're getting the CL money.

There you go, that's what i think about this.

Well don't forget that we only spent 15 million this year, so 23 million per year isn't bad money, is it? It's not about trusting Secco (the board) or not, I don't really care what he says or not, I am looking at the situation at the current time, what they did? what they could have done?

Ask yourself this question, could this squad be much better than this if we spent the money on transfer instead of stadium? My point is, we had the funds and the opportunity to become much stronger on what we are today, if we spent the money wisely on the team. In short, we had the funds, we weren't that desperate.

 

[Paolo Sosa]

are u sure it was 15 ?? only in Amauri's deal 15 mil + Poulsen + buying back DC half it has o be more than 20 mil atleast

 

[Alen]

Well don't forget that we only spent 15 million this year, so 23 million per year isn't bad money, is it? It's not about trusting Secco (the board) or not, I don't really care what he says or not, I am looking at the situation at the current time, what they did? what they could have done?

Ask yourself this question, could this squad be much better than this if we spent the money on transfer instead of stadium? My point is, we had the funds and the opportunity to become much stronger on what we are today, if we spent the money wisely on the team. In short, we had the funds, we weren't that desperate.

Looks like you didn't get it.
We probably didn't even have the money to buy more in the summer, nor to start building a new stadium. Only after we secured CL (in late August 2008) we decided to go on with the stadium (November 2008).

That's why i told you that you can use the stadium project to criticize next summer's mercato, but not last summer's mercato. Because last summer we still didn't know if we will build a new stadium or not.
If we don't spend enough and don't strenghten the squad enough in 2009, then you will have all the right to criticize the new stadium project. But you're using the stadium as your argument to criticize last summer's mercato.

are u sure it was 15 ?? only in Amauri's deal 15 mil + Poulsen + buying back DC half it has o be more than 20 mil atleast

15 million is the difference between the money we spend on new players and the money we got from selling our own players.

 

[Snoop]

I'll reply to the rest in a moment. First i'd like to share one theory of mine.



Is it possible that we knew about Trez's problems?
Trez wasn't injured when he went to the operation. He went there because he saw that he can't handle the pain that's been following him since last season anymore. Trez went to the operation table right after the CL match against Zenit that meant the world to him.
And our interest in Amauri became clear right after Trez started feeling the pain in his knees.

Maybe Amauri was going to be bought anyway, but Trezeguet's knee problems and pain is a fact.

So we could accept Barcelona's offer. Why we didn't?

We were after a MC. Everyone here wanted a MC. Almiron was awful, Tiago flopped and Marchisio was a "?". We wanted to sell Tiago and replace him with another MC. But Tiago didn't want to leave and we were left with a MC more than needed.
Now, you can argue that Poulsen is not the MC we should've bought, but unless i'm wrong you're arguing that instead of buying a MC we should've bought a defender?

So, since the board and everyone here (almost everyone) wanted a MC (Some were having orgasms at the thought of Xabi Alonso), why do you think that we didn't need one and that everyone else was wrong?
We wanted Xabi, Pool didn't want to let him go, and at the end Ranieri chose Poulsen. Simple as that.

Everyone had orgasms on the Xabi news, I didn't bash them when we didn't sign him. Who would refuse having Alonso on their team anyway? This doesn't mean we were desperate for a central midfielder. But buying Poulsen instead was a retarded. Marchisio wasn't really a question mark, he was doing great job with Empoli. Sure we wouldn't expect him to do this great, but i would expect him to do the same job Poulsen is doing right now. Why do we spend 10 Million for another bench player? this is what I am criticizing them here. And remember, everyone's priority was the defense, and not the central midfield. You can search that and check..

It matters what you get at the end. And at the end it turned out that the difference between bought and sold players was 15m. We were "only" in 15m minus during the mercato. So, yes, i'd say that we didn't have money.

Oh, and we payed 21m+Nocerino for these two, not 40m

Lol you count the wages and all when you see it needed for your argument but you don't count when it is needed. Do the math again, it's much more than that. 15 Mil for Amauri + 10 for Poulsen + wages + taxes = it's over 30 if you include the Nocerino transfer. You say you didn't have the money, but in your latest post you admitted we probably paid 23Million on stadium project, so correction here, we actually had the money to add other players, but we preferred to spend it on stadium, and slow down the team building project.

As for the defenders, no need to repeat what i've said many times. I still claim that we must've bought good defenders.

Thank you for this!

Good thing you mentioned Deschamps. What happened to him after he left Juve?
I assume there was a lot of interest for him and many teams wanted him. Who got him at the end?
Edit: Oh, i see that he's unemployed ever since he left us.

Give me a fucking break!! He is a bad manager now for not being employed? So Lippi was a bad manager after the Azzurri quit? and so are the other managers who stayed/refused the jobs, until the best offer comes? There are many examples out there, this argument is so weak Alen, you are smarter than that.

Our wage budget is much bigger than Roma's and it's some 20m lower than Milan's. So far we're doing better than both of them and doing better than Milan is a good achievement, considering that they didn't even play in CL and they used their B team in UEFA Cup.
With a bigger wage budget we could attract much better players and, hopefully, instead of doing "just better" than Milan, we will do "much better" than them and maybe even better than Inter.
Since Secco said that we'll buy only top quality in the summer i assume that we're getting stronger financially, thanks to the smart conducting of business, and we can finally allow ourselves more freedom on the market.

Our budget was bigger than Roma last year, yet we ended behind them 3rd place. Yeah go on ignoring that. We were a team in financial crisis, yet we had a bigger budget than Roma, and ended behind them. yeah that's a big thumb up to the board. Few days back we were behind Milan, don't forget that, and playing in UEFA is a disadvantage for them, they would have better squad than this with the extra money from the CL. Oh and the season is not over yet, if we keep on going this way, others could pass us too, don't axe the possibility just yet.

 

[Vinman]

I wonder if we would have the same discusion here, if all those chances yesterday would have gone in, and we would have won with 4 or 5 to 1.

we didn't, so end of discussion....

Vinman wants winning and nothing else. It's a good characteristic because it always forces you to improve in life and always aim at the top. But in cases like this one, when you can't influence anything, it's not good for your
health.

Vinni predicted that we'll be out of top4 and out of the CL group. That's why i expected him to be more positive about our season so far and i thought he'll be satisfied because the results are far beyond his expectations.
But he just can't. Winning is stronger than him.

We joke with him all the time, but when i think about it, i wouldn't mind if all our players are more like him.

I appreciate the thoughts, Alen

we could go round and round with this discussion, but if we had a smarter coach and a management team that knew what they were doing, we would be doing even better

I just dont see us getting better with what we have in charge

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

who else is available?

 

[C4ISR]

Go ahead and believe the statistics if you want. There have been teams before that had the greatest goal differential but still ended up winning nothing. Just because in some matches we do well and maintain a nice goal differential doesn't mean we get the job done when it counts. I mean seriously, you can't be such a fool defending these events as someone who claims they understand statistics. Statistics regarding goals and defense could lie all the time if they don't hold up when it matters.

Goals for/against can be skewed if Juve hammer the lower teams 5-0, but we dont. In fact, in the 24 games this season, we have only scored more than 2 goals in a game 4 times, and 3 of these were against mid to top table teams (Genoa, Milan and Atalanta), not the lower teams.

If we weren't scoring enough, leaking alot of goals, and were in 5th place, all of you would surely bring this up as an argument against Ranieri. Yet the second some1 uses the opposite, it's somehow a biased interpretation.

So you honestly believe we can't play any better than this? These statistics don't show the whole truth to our ways, because they don't account for the obvious changes to the team that could have provided better goods.

I absolutely believe we can do better. However, given the circumstances (injury ravaged squad), all those 'meaningless' stats I provided are admirable.

U honestly believe that 2nd place is underachieving with this squad? I couldn't disagree with u more. If every1 was fit, than I could c where your coming from, but a squad with Marchisio over Zanetti/Tiago, Marchionni over Camo, an overworked Nedved, Grygera over Zebina (and even Brazzo), and not having Trez available (not that Amauri has done poorly, but it's an option that wins u pts in the long run), I think we have done very well for ourselves, and will only get better this summer with some key signings.

We don't have the fast-paced wingers to successfully use the straight 4-4-2. Yes, the strength is through the middle, with players such as Sissoko, Tiago, Giovinco, Chiellini, and the like. Nedved is also better in the center. So you tell me why we use a system that requires damn good wingers, as Marco is not one of those.

I don't disagree with this, but the proof is in the pudding as they say. Were still getting results, and for me, that's all the matters.

this arguement will go on loop till the end of the season

i hate being second, i never want to be runner up to anyone! but this season has to be viewed as a relative success, we have the weakest squad of the "big 3" and a seemingly incompetent manager.

yet the league table never lies and we are second on merit, the way some folk here talk you would think we were struggling to qualify for europe,scraping into the top 6.

yes some of our players are poor, especially when compared to previous teams, but they have gotten us this far. yes we are over-reliant on the same players, but they continue to step up to the plate and deliver.yes we have a lack of width,but hoefully that has finally been identified and we can search for quality this summer.yes our defense needs strengthening,again hopefully a couple of FB and a Cb are in the pipeline.

BUT

despite all of our failings there are a ot of teams that would swap places with us right now. the mark of a good team is winning while not playing well, if that is the case then we are a much better team than we give ourselves credit for

 

[sateeh]

just about the stadium discussion. IMO the new stadium is very important for the club because it will be symbol that we lost for the past few years. This will be our stadium and to be the first team in Italy to do that is huge. I do think that money could've been put in the team transfer kitty but this is important as well.

As we have seen the money is there but this time around we will spend it wisely and in more quality(hopefully).

 

[dogsarecute]

Poulsen is definitely needed. Zanetti is often injured, while Sissoko will most likely need to play in the African's Cup and Marchisio is more of a CM than a DM although he can tackle. Once Zanetti retires, Poulsen can easily take over his position as the veteran.

A new stadium is good. It brings revenue and pride. In my previous post, I already outlined that we could not do much better in the transfer market because there are no players available and the names mentioned are not world-class. So buying them will be a much greater risk than building a new stadium.

 

[v1rtu4l]

Ask yourself this question, could this squad be much better than this if we spent the money on transfer instead of stadium? My point is, we had the funds and the opportunity to become much stronger on what we are today, if we spent the money wisely on the team. In short, we had the funds, we weren't that desperate.

that sounds like pedrag mijatovics or real madrids tactic ... pay much for a better team ... but wait ...is pepe a better defender, just because they paid that huge sum for him ?

from an economical point of view, spending all the money available on transfers instead of building a stadium has following consequences:

on the short term:

-improved chance on scudetto
-improved chance in CL
-more costs for wages

will the better standing in serie a or cl refinance the wages of worldstars ? i doubt it ...

building a stadium will result in following:

on the long term:
-a revenue every month, every year for a long time to come
-more ticket sales in serie a
-more ticket sales for CL (because uefa will allow more fans, when the security standard is high)
-income from other events that get staged there

(we will have to wait for the stadium to be finished first, though)

if you wanna get something, you gotta give something ... there is not pay now, get success immediately ... and just in case it is not transparent enough ... the income of a stadium is sure, the income of better rankings or achievements in CL through better players is just a chance

 

[Salvo]

we were always going to take time before we make it to the heights we were at before, it was a good idea to invest in the stadium.

as for us succeeding under this managment i highly doubt it, ranieri is just to stupid at times and secco and the rest are just plain imbeciles. we need a coach with charisma some balls not the bitchy coach we have now. right now we have to focus on cl as i believe we can beat almost any one as we have great cohesion within the squad, the only encouregment from the samp game is that we played pretty free flowing football at times. hopefully we can recover a few players and hope the ones that still need to prove themselves Ie; tiago,poulsen, do so.