Serie A 2020-21 (30 Viewers)

[BayernFan]

I think Klinsmann got a good point here regarding Serie A/Italian football, it's also what I tried to explain with the approach and all that.

For Bayern it took time, it started under van Gaal, Heynckes developed it, so did Guardiola and so on and on. Now it's the clubs DNA.

 

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[JuveJay]

We can't do what Man City do, so we'll have to put up with the slow progress. They need a player, bang, £60m and they get who they want. If they need some squad players of £30m then here you go, insane depth to add to it. Even Guardiola said it a couple of weeks ago when asked why they have done so well - because they have a lot of money to buy the players they need. Agüero will leave this summer, a legend of the club who they have done well without, but they will spend a lot of money on a replacement because you can't play Gundogan as a forward forever. When we need to fill 2 roles we compromise on 1 and we continue with that weakness for the next season. We could make smarter choices, but City do not have to make those kind of choices.

Marcotti is right here, the change has been coming but it's slow. It's slow because the clubs don't have money to go out and buy whoever they want. They have to develop players, they have to play good football so it transposes well to European competition, and they have to win at the same time. Sorry, but that's virtually impossible. Bayern have it great and will for as far into the future as there is a legitimate challenger to them, because even when they were not so good they still had a monopoly on the domestic transfer market, something which will never exist in Italian football. Dortmund on the other hand do great work in developing and signing players and play the right football, but they do not have intense pressure to win. Finishing 2nd for them is an historically normal season.

You could spend a lot of time arguing the other destructive facets of Italian football, but if you suddenly gave Serie A the Premier League tv deal you would see marked improvement from the teams, and unfortunately Serie A has been an impoverished league creeping in before 2006, and then it was solidified from that time. And for all the people hating Juve from inside calcio, we are the team that drags calcio up. When Juve fail it looks bad across the league, because you suddenly take the one truly big team of the least 10 years out of the equation, the one team with top 10 finances and the ability to sign star players, and it becomes a league of nobodies with no reference points.

 

[JCK]

We can't do what Man City do, so we'll have to put up with the slow progress. They need a player, bang, £60m and they get who they want. If they need some squad players of £30m then here you go, insane depth to add to it. Even Guardiola said it a couple of weeks ago when asked why they have done so well - because they have a lot of money to buy the players they need. Agüero will leave this summer, a legend of the club who they have done well without, but they will spend a lot of money on a replacement because you can't play Gundogan as a forward forever. When we need to fill 2 roles we compromise on 1 and we continue with that weakness for the next season. We could make smarter choices, but City do not have to make those kind of choices.

Marcotti is right here, the change has been coming but it's slow. It's slow because the clubs don't have money to go out and buy whoever they want. They have to develop players, they have to play good football so it transposes well to European competition, and they have to win at the same time. Sorry, but that's virtually impossible. Bayern have it great and will for as far into the future as there is a legitimate challenger to them, because even when they were not so good they still had a monopoly on the domestic transfer market, something which will never exist in Italian football. Dortmund on the other hand do great work in developing and signing players and play the right football, but they do not have intense pressure to win. Finishing 2nd for them is an historically normal season.

You could spend a lot of time arguing the other destructive facets of Italian football, but if you suddenly gave Serie A the Premier League tv deal you would see marked improvement from the teams, and unfortunately Serie A has been an impoverished league creeping in before 2006, and then it was solidified from that time. And for all the people hating Juve from inside calcio, we are the team that drags calcio up. When Juve fail it looks bad across the league, because you suddenly take the one truly big team of the least 10 years out of the equation, the one team with top 10 finances and the ability to sign star players, and it becomes a league of nobodies with no reference points.

This is why I am certain that we are sticking with Pirlo. The other problem is bringing him the players and at our pace it will take time, not one summer nor two. At least three and in the meantime slowing our pace even more because of financial setbacks.

 

[Xperd]

I think Klinsmann got a good point here regarding Serie A/Italian football, it's also what I tried to explain with the approach and all that.

For Bayern it took time, it started under van Gaal, Heynckes developed it, so did Guardiola and so on and on. Now it's the clubs DNA.

Bayern also have the luxury of pillaging their league's best players for peanuts which makes things much easier hence the process of getting to the top becomes faster.

 

[BayernFan]

Bayern also have the luxury of pillaging their league's best players for peanuts which makes things much easier hence the process of getting to the top becomes faster.

Lets not act as Juve not buying players from other clubs in Italy, Chiesa, Dybala, Bernadeschi, Schznecy just to name a few from the current squad, and anyway this is not relevant in this case when we talk of a tactical approach on the pitch.

I'm giving my opinion when it started for us. If we didn't get van Gaal it might not even have happened, who knows.

 

[swag]

There's always the Coppa.

 

[Alen]

Lets not act as Juve not buying players from other clubs in Italy, Chiesa, Dybala, Bernadeschi, Schznecy just to name a few from the current squad

Most of these played for bottom-half teams. More accurate examples would be Higuain and Pjanic.
It is true though that Bayern do not have rivals on the market in Germany. They can get any player in Bundesliga. Juve cannot do the same in serie A, because Milan and Inter also have money and they're also fishing in the same pond. And also, Juve cannot buy Lukaku, Lautaro, Hakimi, Theo Hernandez, or other stars in Inter and Milan. On the other hand, not a single soul would be surprised if tomorrow Bayern get Haaland.

You're 100% right though that this has very little to do with Bayern's current success in Europe and Juve's troubles.

 

[Bjerknes]

I think Klinsmann got a good point here regarding Serie A/Italian football, it's also what I tried to explain with the approach and all that.

For Bayern it took time, it started under van Gaal, Heynckes developed it, so did Guardiola and so on and on. Now it's the clubs DNA.

Van Gaal - Dutch
Heynckes - German
Guardiola - Spanish
Ancelotti - Italian
Kovac - Croat

Nice mix of different nationalities, not just settling for the Italian flavor of the day like Juve.

 

[BayernFan]

Most of these played for bottom-half teams. More accurate examples would be Higuain and Pjanic.
It is true though that Bayern do not have rivals on the market in Germany. They can get any player in Bundesliga. Juve cannot do the same in serie A, because Milan and Inter also have money and they're also fishing in the same pond. And also, Juve cannot buy Lukaku, Lautaro, Hakimi, Theo Hernandez, or other stars in Inter and Milan. On the other hand, not a single soul would be surprised if tomorrow Bayern get Haaland.

You're 100% right though that this has very little to do with Bayern's current success in Europe and Juve's troubles.

I wanted to go with current players but then lets also mention Merih Demiral, Cristian Romero, Kulusevski and on and on. Even your biggest star players back in the day such as Buffon, Nedved, Baggio, Paolo Montero, Ciro Ferrara, Lilian Thuram and so on and on came from your rivals - just as Bayern bought a lot of their star players from their rivals.

You might not have bought players from Milan and Inter but you still bought all these players from other Italian clubs.

And I have no issue with this, but we can all make a certain claim to make it fit our agenda/point of view - I never said Bayern aren't having a big market in Germany but people shouldn't act like Juve can't/don't buy a lot of talented players from their rivals. And yet again was it not the whole point of what I said.

The point is; Bayern are very good at spotting the players they need to make it fit their system. Is it easier for Bayern because we don't have a Milan and Inter in our backyard? No doubt.

But I really think we're better at scouting which players we need to fit our system these days and it doesn't matter that much about the league you play in in this sense, it's just about doing your homework better.

 

[Post Ironic]

Lets not act as Juve not buying players from other clubs in Italy, Chiesa, Dybala, Bernadeschi, Schznecy just to name a few from the current squad, and anyway this is not relevant in this case when we talk of a tactical approach on the pitch.

I'm giving my opinion when it started for us. If we didn't get van Gaal it might not even have happened, who knows.

Not quite the same though, and you know it. So don’t be too disingenuous here. We have multiple teams in the league that would rather be relegated than sell a good young player to Juve. And we generally get asked for ridiculous transfer fees for domestic talent which doesn’t really happen to Bayern. Your league is an outlier in that regard.

But you guys are successful in large part because you build teams with balance and in coordination with the coaches you hire, and don’t just go for random market opportunities and ignore the coach’s wants like we do. You also don’t sell your top players year after year, which to be fair to Juve was in part due to financial constraints and has stopped the last few years as revenue has increased.

 

[BayernFan]

Not quite the same though, and you know it. So don’t be too disingenuous here. We have multiple teams in the league that would rather be relegated than sell a good young player to Juve. And we generally get asked for ridiculous transfer fees for domestic talent which doesn’t really happen to Bayern. Your league is an outlier in that regard.

But you guys are successful in large part because you build teams with balance and in coordination with the coaches you hire, and don’t just go for random market opportunities and ignore the coach’s wants like we do. You also don’t sell your top players year after year, which to be fair to Juve was in part due to financial constraints and has stopped the last few years as revenue has increased.

I already said Bundesliga teams are more willing to sell to Bayern so I don't know what else to say about it from my part?

But the fact is that Juve could get plenty of the best Italian/Serie A players as well which history also shows, even if you have to fight more for them than we do.

The last part I fully agree with.

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Van Gaal - Dutch
Heynckes - German
Guardiola - Spanish
Ancelotti - Italian
Kovac - Croat

Nice mix of different nationalities, not just settling for the Italian flavor of the day like Juve.

Kovac is pretty much German though and wasn't really a fit anyway.

 

[Xperd]

Lets not act as Juve not buying players from other clubs in Italy, Chiesa, Dybala, Bernadeschi, Schznecy just to name a few from the current squad, and anyway this is not relevant in this case when we talk of a tactical approach on the pitch.

I'm giving my opinion when it started for us. If we didn't get van Gaal it might not even have happened, who knows.

For Juventus, we have to pay a premium. We often end up overpaying because of our prestige and money but with Bayern, it's different. Players can bought with relative ease because as already stated, they have no domestic rival. Bayern often buy players on their terms. Neither premier league, Serie A or even the La Liga giants are in this unique situation.
A highly talented CB in Upamecano bought for peanuts from a title challenger once again proving why Bundesliga is a big joke, tells all you need to know. So please stop living in denial.

 

[BayernFan]

For Juventus, we have to pay a premium. We often end up overpaying because of our prestige and money but with Bayern, it's different. Players can bought with relative ease because as already stated, they have no domestic rival. Bayern often buy players on their terms. Neither premier league, Serie A or even the La Liga giants are in this unique situation.
A highly talented CB in Upamecano bought for peanuts from a title challenger once again proving why Bundesliga is a big joke, tells all you need to know. So please stop living in denial.

Exactly where am I living in denial? I clearly stated Bayern don't have as much competitions regarding transfers, but you're aware Upamecano had a release clause right? Not Bayerns problem Leipzig put it at 43 mio euros and not Bayerns problem Upamecano wanted to play for us. And are you seriosuly saying that 43 mio euros is peanuts in todays market when corona fucked the economies over?

Another thing is; you still didn't get my basic point. Don't know how many times I have to explain it over and over.

 

[Xperd]

Exactly where am I living in denial? I clearly stated Bayern don't have as much competitions regarding transfers, but you're aware Upamecano had a release clause right? Not Bayerns problem Leipzig put it at 43 mio euros and not Bayerns problem Upamecano wanted to play for us. And are you seriosuly saying that 43 mio euros is peanuts in todays market when corona fucked the economies over?

Another thing is; you still didn't get my basic point. Don't know how many times I have to explain it over and over.

My initial argument was that it helps that Bayern have no competition in Bundesliga in the market, thus their process in getting to the top is faster. Exactly how am I wrong?
I never denied that Bayern made smart decisions on a recruitment level or for the fact that with the help of Van Gaal, they transformed their footballing philosophy. I just merely stated that Bayern have it easy in the Bundesliga which helps in accelerating the process to get to the very top. You responded by saying 'nah, Juve have it easy too' which is obviously wrong. The reasons have been explained by multiple posters.
Seems like we're arguing over nothing in the end here.
Yes €40M for a young defender from a title challenger is peanuts, covid or no covid. Fucking Havertz went for €100M so this covid argument doesn't fly in this case

 

[JuveJay]

I wanted to go with current players but then lets also mention Merih Demiral, Cristian Romero, Kulusevski and on and on.

But why would you mention young players from small teams? Would you say that Sassuolo, Genoa and Parma are rivals for Juve, or that these are relevant to the point? At some point Juve are going to buy players from their own league, it's a bit ridiculous to say otherwise, which is why no one has done that.

Even your biggest star players back in the day such as Buffon, Nedved, Baggio, Paolo Montero, Ciro Ferrara, Lilian Thuram and so on and on came from your rivals - just as Bayern bought a lot of their star players from their rivals.

You might not have bought players from Milan and Inter but you still bought all these players from other Italian clubs.

Like you say, we didn't often buy from Milan or Inter, not the best players (although Inter did famously given us Fabio Cannavaro in a swap for Fabian Carini once , and Inter sold Milan a certain Andrea Pirlo, but this was just classic Inter shit management). We didn't sign Shevchenko or Maldini or Ronaldo, those would be impossible. Milan could take Rui Costa, or Roma could take Batistuta (he was 32) from Fiorentina, or Inter could take Crespo from Lazio. They could never sign a key player from the big 3. Serie A had 7 teams at the time who all challenged for the top trophies because they had rich backing (Juve, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina), but the top 3 was still the same. We'll come back to that point. This big 3 does not exist in Germany, and probably never will. So here's the thing;

Buffon - €51m, world record fee for a goalkeeper in 2001, which stood for many years.
Thuram - €31m, world record fee for a defender in 2001, and he was 29 years old.
Nedved - €38m, one of the most expensive players ever in 2001, also 29 years old.
Baggio - £8m, world record transfer fee in 1990
Vialli - £12.5m, world record transfer fee in 1992

Atalanta (Montero) were a tiny provincial club at the time (see first point), and Napoli were never really a big team, only won with Maradona, and were declining to obscurity by the time Ferrara was signed. I can think of another example which is when Emerson joined from Roma, but he only moved because he was Capello's midfield general on the pitch, and his #1 priority.

But these moves were 20 or 30 years ago. As I've already said, Juve cannot do this anymore. Clubs are even more reluctant to sell when there is so much money abroad to sell there, instead of it being circulated around Serie A as it was up until about 2003, and Juve get priced out of moves.

Pjanic signed because he had a €32m release clause. Probably wouldn't have happened without it, although not impossible.
Higuain signed because he had a €90m release clause. Never would have happened without it.
Szczesny was signed from Arsenal, not Roma.
Dybala, Chiesa and Bernardeschi all came to the club from nothing teams, and the players all pushed for the moves.

But like I said, we're clearly going to sign some players from within the league as we're a strong team in a league that has no money, and many players would love to play for us. But also many players would never play for us, because that's just what Italy is like.

As Alen points out, it's not the entire reason why this Juve is struggling, or the only reason why Bayern is doing so well, but it's a nice bonus to have when it comes to recruitment. Imagine us being able to sign Zaniolo, SMS and Barella for €120m combined, we'd have nothing to worry about.

 

[BayernFan]

My initial argument was that it helps that Bayern have no competition in Bundesliga in the market, thus their process in getting to the top is faster. Exactly how am I wrong?
I never denied that Bayern made smart decisions on a recruitment level or for the fact that with the help of Van Gaal, they transformed their footballing philosophy. I just merely stated that Bayern have it easy in the Bundesliga which helps in accelerating the process to get to the very top. You responded by saying 'nah, Juve have it easy too' which is obviously wrong. The reasons have been explained by multiple posters.
Seems like we're arguing over nothing in the end here.
Yes €40M for a young defender from a title challenger is peanuts, covid or no covid. Fucking Havertz went for €100M so this covid argument doesn't fly in this case

Something you pretty much started yourself, I was talking about how to build a squad and get the approach needed for todays football, you went on with "Bayern have it way easier", which might be the case indeed - but you still gotta spend the money wisely.

And yes, Juve do have it easy, not Bayern easy but still easy - you probably can't see it because you're biased. Being a top club is a priviledge and will always give you the upper hand, especially in transfer business - you pay more, but you're also able to get much more, and Juve have been the only big fish in the pond for around a decade now in Serie A, same as Bayern in Bundesliga. If it's stay like that is difficult to say, but it seems Inter are slowly getting back to their best. Then lets agree to disagree.

Btw; Havertz only went for that much because Chelsea had a transfer ban and there for saved fundings for transfers, else it's highly unlikely they would have been able to buy him. Leverkusen also demanded the same price from Bayern if I remember right, but as I remember the club didn't go for him as they didn't want to take risks. Bayern cares a lot about their spending policy and not taking debts.

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But why would you mention young players from small teams? Would you say that Sassuolo, Genoa and Parma are rivals for Juve, or that these are relevant to the point? At some point Juve are going to buy players from their own league, it's a bit ridiculous to say otherwise, which is why no one has done that.


Like you say, we didn't often buy from Milan or Inter, not the best players (although Inter did famously given us Fabio Cannavaro in a swap for Fabian Carini once , and Inter sold Milan a certain Andrea Pirlo, but this was just classic Inter shit management). We didn't sign Shevchenko or Maldini or Ronaldo, those would be impossible. Milan could take Rui Costa, or Roma could take Batistuta (he was 32) from Fiorentina, or Inter could take Crespo from Lazio. They could never sign a key player from the big 3. Serie A had 7 teams at the time who all challenged for the top trophies because they had rich backing (Juve, Inter, Milan, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina), but the top 3 was still the same. We'll come back to that point. This big 3 does not exist in Germany, and probably never will. So here's the thing;

Buffon - €51m, world record fee for a goalkeeper in 2001, which stood for many years.
Thuram - €31m, world record fee for a defender in 2001, and he was 29 years old.
Nedved - €38m, one of the most expensive players ever in 2001, also 29 years old.
Baggio - £8m, world record transfer fee in 1990
Vialli - £12.5m, world record transfer fee in 1992

Atalanta (Montero) were a tiny provincial club at the time (see first point), and Napoli were never really a big team, only won with Maradona, and were declining to obscurity by the time Ferrara was signed. I can think of another example which is when Emerson joined from Roma, but he only moved because he was Capello's midfield general on the pitch, and his #1 priority.

But these moves were 20 or 30 years ago. As I've already said, Juve cannot do this anymore. Clubs are even more reluctant to sell when there is so much money abroad to sell there, instead of it being circulated around Serie A as it was up until about 2003, and Juve get priced out of moves.

Pjanic signed because he had a €32m release clause. Probably wouldn't have happened without it, although not impossible.
Higuain signed because he had a €90m release clause. Never would have happened without it.
Szczesny was signed from Arsenal, not Roma.
Dybala, Chiesa and Bernardeschi all came to the club from nothing teams, and the players all pushed for the moves.

But like I said, we're clearly going to sign some players from within the league as we're a strong team in a league that has no money, and many players would love to play for us. But also many players would never play for us, because that's just what Italy is like.

As Alen points out, it's not the entire reason why this Juve is struggling, or the only reason why Bayern is doing so well, but it's a nice bonus to have when it comes to recruitment. Imagine us being able to sign Zaniolo, SMS and Barella for €120m combined, we'd have nothing to worry about.

I mentioned these players (Kulusevski etc) because we're talking about buying players from our own league.

Lets remember these transfers were back in the day when Juve had one of the biggest turnovers and Serie A was the strongest league in the world, so these transfers were not really that outrageous in terms of price for that time because it was different times in terms of the balance of power - today it's England that has this role and England is where the money is and that's probably the way it will stay.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

When did everyone turn into cronios

 

[Enron]

The fear is always there, it only needs encouragement

 

[Lion]

we really missed out on signing ashley young.

 

[.zero]