Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (114 Viewers)

[U Picciriddu]

why is this war happening? because putin is a piece of shit

so once again, why my desired solution is not realistic? voilá

what you're echoing only serves russian interests and they can't feel for a second that they are dictating terms here. you don't talk to terrorists, remember?

Really sad man, I was hoping for some good arguments because there are always options, seems like you don’t have them, this is really surface level answering.

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Dude. How would the peace treaty would look like? Ukraine loses territories, maybe keeps Kursk and EU restarts gas trading with Russia like nothing ever happened? I refuse to believe you are so short-sighted. Must be trolling. The choice of the topic is rather strange though...

Well enlighten me buddy

What are realistic options?

 

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[Post Ironic]

Had no idea this guy was such a Trump-Putin simp

 

[s4tch]

Really sad man, I was hoping for some good arguments because there are always options, seems like you don’t have them, this is really surface level answering.

nah, the whole discussion starts and ends here. it's all on russia and they'll continue to play the bully with anyone when you let them to. you can try to twist it either way, that's the bottom line of the whole russia vs anyone discussion and they need to be treated as what they are

the only option is to not let russia have any territories, whatever it costs. otherwise they'll come back for more, and in a decade or two, it will be your courtyard (unless it's flooded by the ocean lol)

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

You’re basically asking for a military victory: liberation of the Donbas, Crimea (both either partially or under full control of Russia for 10 years), liberation of the south, arresting Putin and convicting him at the ICC in The Hague, all of that while:

-being outnumbered in manpower, weaponry and ammunition;
-adapting the Western military doctrine (meaning we value life more than Russia, who go for mass);
-a changing political landscape around them, with the EU making a shift to the right and possibly the US aswel;
-unlike Russia being unable to call in foreign entities;

The question is how do you see that, how are they going to pull that off?

But then what do you do when they go for Moldova or Georgia next? We both know this won't be the end of it. Don't forget, we're not forcing Ukraine to continue, it is their choice to do so.

 

[U Picciriddu]

But then what do you do when they go for Moldova or Georgia next? We both know this won't be the end of it. Don't forget, we're not forcing Ukraine to continue, it is their choice to do so.

There are geographic limitations for Russia to attack Maldova. There’s that small region with separatists but overal the status quo has been maintained even throughout this war.

Georgia is aspiring member of NATO since 2008, quite close to joining the EU since last year. So honestly this war opens a window to add them to NATO like Sweden and Finland did, I don’t know why they havent done that yet.

If anything we can conclude that Europe has been caught by surprise. Oké the indications were there after ‘14, but the lack of a united response is clear. No NATO build of, no production improvement, basically the status quo remained. If anything I think you’ll go back to a iron curtain, lessons learned the hard way this time. It’s almost like the nucleair umbrella. You make sure that your defense is on point so the enemy won’t attack, basically the way the US treats defense for decades now. Europe has just been naive thinking that American protection would be enough, I’ve been complaining a awful lot about that here.

I want to add that in ‘14, a unorganised defence in Ukraine gave Russia the opportunity to annex Crimea without firing a shot. Behind the scenes build up of Ukrainian military in those next years is what gave Ukraine a opportunity to defend themself and Russia making that famous miscalculation when they thought they could beat them in 3 days. So moral of the story here: spending a lot on your army is actually very important, safety is not for free. And that would count for bilateral agreements with Ukraine and possibly Georgia/Maldova, plus without a doubt more spending in neighbouring countries (Finland/Baltic States).

Also providing Ukraine with security guarantees is the opposite of what happened last time, where Russia provided them in exchange for their nucleair weapons. The Boedapest Memorandum doesn’t require the US to guarantee safety, for example.

So guys I understand it isn’t a popular opinion, saying ‘fuck Russia’ would’ve earned me some likes, but ultimately most wars end with diplomacy (or victory), so sometimes you have to be realistic and look to the situation. There are valid arguments of how Ukraine could still possibly win, although not easy to reach, sadly s4ch couldn’t provide them.

 

[s4tch]

...I don’t know why they havent done that yet....

make one guess

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...-stark-choice-between-russia-west-2024-10-26/

they have a pro russia government that has just won the election. eu calls fraud, putin congratulates, orbán congratulates, life goes on

 

[Post Ironic]

There are geographic limitations for Russia to attack Maldova. There’s that small region with separatists but overal the status quo has been maintained even throughout this war.

Georgia is aspiring member of NATO since 2008, quite close to joining the EU since last year. So honestly this war opens a window to add them to NATO like Sweden and Finland did, I don’t know why they havent done that yet.

If anything we can conclude that Europe has been caught by surprise. Oké the indications were there after ‘14, but the lack of a united response is clear. No NATO build of, no production improvement, basically the status quo remained. If anything I think you’ll go back to a iron curtain, lessons learned the hard way this time. It’s almost like the nucleair umbrella. You make sure that your defense is on point so the enemy won’t attack, basically the way the US treats defense for decades now. Europe has just been naive thinking that American protection would be enough, I’ve been complaining a awful lot about that here.

I want to add that in ‘14, a unorganised defence in Ukraine gave Russia the opportunity to annex Crimea without firing a shot. Behind the scenes build up of Ukrainian military in those next years is what gave Ukraine a opportunity to defend themself and Russia making that famous miscalculation when they thought they could beat them in 3 days. So moral of the story here: spending a lot on your army is actually very important, safety is not for free. And that would count for bilateral agreements with Ukraine and possibly Georgia/Maldova, plus without a doubt more spending in neighbouring countries (Finland/Baltic States).

Also providing Ukraine with security guarantees is the opposite of what happened last time, where Russia provided them in exchange for their nucleair weapons. The Boedapest Memorandum doesn’t require the US to guarantee safety, for example.

So guys I understand it isn’t a popular opinion, saying ‘fuck Russia’ would’ve earned me some likes, but ultimately most wars end with diplomacy (or victory), so sometimes you have to be realistic and look to the situation. There are valid arguments of how Ukraine could still possibly win, although not easy to reach, sadly s4ch couldn’t provide them.

Yes. Let’s do the Neville Chamberlain method.

If they had followed your path France, Poland, Netherlands, etc would still be part of Nazi germany lol

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

There are geographic limitations for Russia to attack Maldova. There’s that small region with separatists but overal the status quo has been maintained even throughout this war.

Georgia is aspiring member of NATO since 2008, quite close to joining the EU since last year. So honestly this war opens a window to add them to NATO like Sweden and Finland did, I don’t know why they havent done that yet.

If anything we can conclude that Europe has been caught by surprise. Oké the indications were there after ‘14, but the lack of a united response is clear. No NATO build of, no production improvement, basically the status quo remained. If anything I think you’ll go back to a iron curtain, lessons learned the hard way this time. It’s almost like the nucleair umbrella. You make sure that your defense is on point so the enemy won’t attack, basically the way the US treats defense for decades now. Europe has just been naive thinking that American protection would be enough, I’ve been complaining a awful lot about that here.

I want to add that in ‘14, a unorganised defence in Ukraine gave Russia the opportunity to annex Crimea without firing a shot. Behind the scenes build up of Ukrainian military in those next years is what gave Ukraine a opportunity to defend themself and Russia making that famous miscalculation when they thought they could beat them in 3 days. So moral of the story here: spending a lot on your army is actually very important, safety is not for free. And that would count for bilateral agreements with Ukraine and possibly Georgia/Maldova, plus without a doubt more spending in neighbouring countries (Finland/Baltic States).

Also providing Ukraine with security guarantees is the opposite of what happened last time, where Russia provided them in exchange for their nucleair weapons. The Boedapest Memorandum doesn’t require the US to guarantee safety, for example.

So guys I understand it isn’t a popular opinion, saying ‘fuck Russia’ would’ve earned me some likes, but ultimately most wars end with diplomacy (or victory), so sometimes you have to be realistic and look to the situation. There are valid arguments of how Ukraine could still possibly win, although not easy to reach, sadly s4ch couldn’t provide them.

That small region is something though, isn't it? Another "justification" regardless of size. As for Georgia, isn't that (one of the many changing) pretenses for the Ukraine invasion to begin with too?

It's not about "likes" and slogans. It boils down to you think this would be the end of things, and the rest of us think that a few years down the road this exact scenario plays out again with another nation. But now if we look at history, we've seen this before.

 

[radekas]

make one guess

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...-stark-choice-between-russia-west-2024-10-26/

they have a pro russia government that has just won the election. eu calls fraud, putin congratulates, orbán congratulates, life goes on

Also AFAIK you can't join NATO when you have disputed borders and Georgia has them because of the 2008 war with Russia. Abhazia and Southern Ossetia "separated" but in reality it was exactly the same thing that happened in Donbas 6 years later.

 

[U Picciriddu]

That small region is something though, isn't it? Another "justification" regardless of size. As for Georgia, isn't that (one of the many changing) pretenses for the Ukraine invasion to begin with too?

It's not about "likes" and slogans. It boils down to you think this would be the end of things, and the rest of us think that a few years down the road this exact scenario plays out again with another nation. But now if we look at history, we've seen this before.

The result will be the same if you don’t do anything indeed, that’s why I say a build up should happen.

The sentiment here is the other way around; allow millions of Ukrainians to die, because if we make peace without a military victory, Russia might go to war with another country.

So if you can’t get a military victory for Ukraine, what will exactly be the end?

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

The result will be the same if you don’t do anything indeed, that’s why I say a build up should happen.

The sentiment here is the other way around; allow millions of Ukrainians to die, because if we make peace without a military victory, Russia might go to war with another country.

So if you can’t get a military victory for Ukraine, what will exactly be the end?

I hope you're not, but I think you're going to be very disappointed with the results.

I don't have that answer, that's on Ukraine to answer. It's their war, we can only help and I think that we should for as long as they want to continue.

 

[U Picciriddu]

I hope you're not, but I think you're going to be very disappointed with the results.

I don't have that answer, that's on Ukraine to answer. It's their war, we can only help and I think that we should for as long as they want to continue.

In principle I agree with the last part, practically I think support will deteriorate as it often does. Something else will come on the political agenda, support costs a lot of money, etc. Therefore I talked about peace on the short/mid term, long term it probably becomes more difficult.

There’s already a big difference in Europe; the more you go to the east, the more countries are willing to support. Countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal aren’t doing that much

Also Trump came back, he talked a lot about it, so it’s rational to think about possible outcomes in the near future imo.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

In principle I agree with the last part, practically I think support will deteriorate as it often does. Something else will come on the political agenda, support costs a lot of money, etc. Therefore I talked about peace on the short/mid term, long term it probably becomes more difficult.

There’s already a big difference in Europe; the more you go to the east, the more countries are willing to support. Countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal aren’t doing that much

Also Trump came back, he talked a lot about it, so it’s rational to think about possible outcomes in the near future imo.

Nothing can go on forever so of course, but why should we be deciding for them when that point is? It's like why should Russia decide which international organizations they should align themselves with?

Yeah of course, because it's a more pressing issue for them at the moment. Can't help such short-sightedness though, they just have to hope their bet that the consequences won't reach them are right.

Putin will stroke his ego and he'll give them a sweetheart peace deal, this is the worst possible outcome for Ukrainian sovereignty. And let's not even touch on the Palestinians.

 

[Kopanja]

lol, Americans did do it, serves us right though, giving up nukes for pinky promises.
See you in the next world suckers, some of you are decent folks, and I wish you to escape this evil, though genie is out of the bottle.

P.S. European Putin lovers are the dumbest fucks imaginable, and it warms me that when war comes to them there will be no one to call.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

lol, Americans did do it, serves us right though, giving up nukes for pinky promises.
See you in the next world suckers, some of you are decent folks, and I wish you to escape this evil, though genie is out of the bottle.

P.S. European Putin lovers are the dumbest fucks imaginable, and it warms me that when war comes to them there will be no one to call.

I'm so sorry man, I truly am. I still hope for a miracle for you and your people.

 

[Kopanja]

It’s alright. I know we were cooked as soon as something about egg prices was in the Economist of all places
I don’t have kids, was always postponing it, my wifey is smart as a whip and still hot, she’ll find someone, nephews and nieces will help my parents to move on. It’s all coming up millhouse. On top of that I won’t have to watch Locatelli play footie.

 

[Ronn]

lol, Americans did do it, serves us right though, giving up nukes for pinky promises.
See you in the next world suckers, some of you are decent folks, and I wish you to escape this evil, though genie is out of the bottle.

P.S. European Putin lovers are the dumbest fucks imaginable, and it warms me that when war comes to them there will be no one to call.

So sorry my man. Hopefully it won’t come to that. I hope it was just bullshit election talk.

 

[campionesidd]

It’s alright. I know we were cooked as soon as something about egg prices was in the Economist of all places
I don’t have kids, was always postponing it, my wifey is smart as a whip and still hot, she’ll find someone, nephews and nieces will help my parents to move on. It’s all coming up millhouse. On top of that I won’t have to watch Locatelli play footie.

These retards in America will soon realize that they only way prices can come down is with a massive recession. Lol. I for one, am looking forward to the meltdown.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

It’s alright. I know we were cooked as soon as something about egg prices was in the Economist of all places
I don’t have kids, was always postponing it, my wifey is smart as a whip and still hot, she’ll find someone, nephews and nieces will help my parents to move on. It’s all coming up millhouse. On top of that I won’t have to watch Locatelli play footie.

Stay safe, man.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Seems we're trying to rush additional aid to Ukraine before Trump abandons them like he did the Kurds because he's a spineless bitch. I hope it manages to help.