Rome is crumbling - Part I (1 Viewer)

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#41
I see the first post was removed in this thread but it's uncanny how some of the speculations made by Evelyn and sutnop have come true.. :dazed:

Lazio have been forced to sell most of their players, now there isn't much left. They're sitting in mid table, 15 points behind the lead. Their Uefa Cup adventure is better left unmentioned. As for Roma, well enough has been said about them the past 6 months..
 

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Nicole

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2004
7,561
#42
Rome will never crumble.

Lazio are run by fools what can you expect?

Oh, and they still owe Man Utd 14m from the Jaap Stam deal!
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#43
If you really choose those words for Lazio's management, I'd think Roma's deserves a very comparable treatment with all the howlers they've made..

Of course crumble need not mean Serie B like Evelyn suggested, but eliminating them from the list of title contenders is already something that has come true. True it's still early but I don't imagine both Lazio and Roma will be in the running, maybe Roma if they get it together.
 

Nicole

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2004
7,561
#44
Roma holds the name of the capital of Italy. It'll always be a contender for everything, in football there are very few really special clubs, and Roma is one of them. There will always be great players wanting to play for Roma. Roma have everything they need to be the best club in Italy, right now your are correct and title contenders is not what we are right now. I'd go as far to say that I dont even think we'll get in Europe I dont know, if we can build upon the Siena win (In which Cassano was brilliant), then perhaps, but with our consistency I dont know if we will. But, we'll be back you'll see 2001 certainly isnt the last time Roma will win a Scudetto!
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#45
I don't think anyone suggested Roma will never be competitive again but undeniably, there is a big dent in your ability to compete at the moment and that's what this is all about. Anyway, I was just astonished at how these speculations made quite some time ago came true..
 

K10

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,698
#46
I think Roma has the squad at present to win the Champion's League and the Serie A. Their players aren't the problem, its lack of consistency and well, I am assuming mentality.

Lazio on the other hand have become a midtable club, and permanently as well. They are on the same level as Bologna, Sampdoria and what not, accept they had the experience of recently being a "Big" club.

Would Roma get back on their feet? I most definately believe so. Lazio? I fear the worst.

If Lazio could have kept their team from last year, they would have had a great chance of recovering, by next year I hoped.

Too bad, they're senseless.

On a serious note as well, why the hell is Juventus so consistent. I mean, its like every Serie A they're on top. And it's not to say they have the better players. I just don't understand.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#47
++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
I think Roma has the squad at present to win the Champion's League and the Serie A. Their players aren't the problem, its lack of consistency and well, I am assuming mentality.

Lazio on the other hand have become a midtable club, and permanently as well. They are on the same level as Bologna, Sampdoria and what not, accept they had the experience of recently being a "Big" club.

Would Roma get back on their feet? I most definately believe so. Lazio? I fear the worst.

If Lazio could have kept their team from last year, they would have had a great chance of recovering, by next year I hoped.

Too bad, they're senseless.
I think you're suffering from a case of "the grass is greener". Surely Lazio are worse off right now but to suggest there is no way back while Roma does have all the potential in the world I think is a little exaggerated. From what I know, Roma's financial situation is not spectacular and long term they will probably sell a couple more top players, which will reduce their ability to compete and fill up with more youth players (probably). Of course the youth experiment could pay off but it's a scheme they have been forced into and evidently noone does it willingly so it has to be quite risky.

Also, I think Roma still lack a coach to win anything. I don't know about Del Neri, maybe he will turn it around but in my eyes the only reason they won anything to begin with is Capello and I think even the most stubborn Romanisti are coming around on that one now. Will Del Neri come good? Will Prandelli return? A great coach to me is what makes a winning team, nothing else.

++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
On a serious note as well, why the hell is Juventus so consistent. I mean, its like every Serie A they're on top. And it's not to say they have the better players. I just don't understand.
Like Thuram said when he signed "Juventus have a winning culture" and that's one buzzword people like to throw around but behind that I think is a great deal of professionality, people who know what they're doing, know how to get results. In any sport, why is that once an athlete or team starts winning, the best ones go on winning? I think it's because they established a set of conditions that have to be met, training methods, tactics, fitness, whatever. Something that gives them the edge. I think that's the reason a relatively "modest" coach (at the time anyway) like Ancelotti actually did as well as he did at Juve, it was his first big job. But of course with giants like Lippi and Capello, a winning coach guarantees results, so that's just how it goes. And like Capello said, working at Roma was chaotic, I imagine Juve is a lot more organized because they've found a style that works.

So in the 90s and up until today, we've been blessed with the best coaches, I think that alone goes a long way to explain the success. At the same time I've witnessed the Lippi era come to an end, Capello won't be here forever, I'm worried about the future.
 

K10

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,698
#48
I think you're suffering from a case of "the grass is greener". Surely Lazio are worse off right now but to suggest there is no way back while Roma does have all the potential in the world I think is a little exaggerated. From what I know, Roma's financial situation is not spectacular and long term they will probably sell a couple more top players, which will reduce their ability to compete and fill up with more youth players (probably). Of course the youth experiment could pay off but it's a scheme they have been forced into and evidently noone does it willingly so it has to be quite risky.
The reason I say Roma has more of a chance compared to Lazio is that Roma still have world class players (Montella, Totti, Mido, Chivu, Ferrari, Mexes, Mancini, De Rossi, etc) and if they keep these players they can win something soon. Where as Lazio however, don't have these players and the players they do have are no better than the average midtable Serie A club. Another thing is that they don't have the money to buy any WC players so they will remain with the same players they have currently.

This is a loose-loose situation I think. Unless Lazio get money buy some billionaire I don't see them becoming rich again. Or at least, not within the next ten years.

I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong but it hurts to see that a club like Lazio, one which was probably rated the best in the world at one point, with world class players, has come to this.

Like Thuram said when he signed "Juventus have a winning culture" and that's one buzzword people like to throw around but behind that I think is a great deal of professionality, people who know what they're doing, know how to get results. In any sport, why is that once an athlete or team starts winning, the best ones go on winning? I think it's because they established a set of conditions that have to be met, training methods, tactics, fitness, whatever. Something that gives them the edge. I think that's the reason a relatively "modest" coach (at the time anyway) like Ancelotti actually did as well as he did at Juve, it was his first big job. But of course with giants like Lippi and Capello, a winning coach guarantees results, so that's just how it goes. And like Capello said, working at Roma was chaotic, I imagine Juve is a lot more organized because they've found a style that works.

Basically you are saying that it's the Juventus "Mentality" that have them be so consistent. If Roma and Inter just adopt this way of thinking, do you think they can be just as consistent as Juventus?
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#49
++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
Basically you are saying that it's the Juventus "Mentality" that have them be so consistent. If Roma and Inter just adopt this way of thinking, do you think they can be just as consistent as Juventus?
Yes, kind of. But it has come through success and years of experience. In all likelyhood vastly superior organizational skills too. Those things Inter and Roma don't seem to have. Milan, on the other hand.. but beyond that being the best means hiring the best, so if Juve can hire Capello, whom I consider the best coach, and they can provide a great working environment and a squad that's competitive enough, there's no beating that. Statistically he will succeed more often than other coaches. If he doesn't win this year, he'll win next year etc.
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#50
++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++

Basically you are saying that it's the Juventus "Mentality" that have them be so consistent. If Roma and Inter just adopt this way of thinking, do you think they can be just as consistent as Juventus?
you don't just adopt a winning mentality.to have that mentality you need to actually taste success and have a proven method to go about doing things.That can come in many forms;a winning coach,accomplished players,astute management etc. or a combination of those.As Juve have proven,teamwork and professionalism do indeed count for more than star players.to a certain extent Lazio did,at one point,attempt to emulate Inter by buying stars but various factors like excessive spending and a lack of cohesion and time to gel the team together ultimately spelled their doom.

now that they've sold nearly all their good players there is little hope of them returning to greatness in the short term.they forgot what made them great in the first place;a few homegrown youngsters and foreign stars coupled with attractive football and a cohesive team unit.

for both Italy and Lazio's sake(although traditionally they are a fierce rival of ours) i hope they find their feet soon and begin the ardous climb back to the top.granted,they have the infrastructure and experience which gives them a headstart over the likes of bologna and brescia,and also a few quality players in Cesar,Oddo and Sereni.What they now need is to learn from their previous failures and pick a better role model than Internazionale: Juventus.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
107,493
#51
Great posts guys, well done.

I would like to elaborate on Martin's and Desmond's posts, that team tranquility stems from the front office, which Juve has been blessed with for many years. Luciano Moggi buys only the players we absolutely need. Therefore, not many players are "left out" of the procedings on the pitch, and this creates a cohesive team mentality, unlike a club such as Internazionale. With the Nerazzurri, players have been bought and sold; they come and go, to the extent which is excessively idiotic on the part of Moratti, first and foremost. Inter have repeatedly failed at bringing together a core unit of players, like the Ferrara's, Iuliano's, Conte's, Del Piero's, so they basically have no base roster. The only core players Inter still have are Javier Zanetti, Toldo, and Vieri. The management, though, goes ahead and makes questionable buys in the form of Veron, van der Meyde, Lamouchi, and Favalli, while they discard players such as Ronaldo (to an extent), Cannavaro, and Pirlo. How are players supposed to perform when they are not valued? Inter, as I see it, lacks a face; a mold, structural support. The only "face" I see is Moratti holding Facchetti in one hand and a money bag in the other.

As for Lazio, once again horrid management has taken its toll on a club which looked to have a bright future after 2000. But then the Mendietas and De La Pena's came about, and in turn so did the financial problems.

The key to success is a stable enviorment, which I am glad to say Juventus has one of the best in the game today.
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#52
Indeed.This stable team environment in turn translates into a healthy locker room atmosphere and a sense of security for the players.

Remember when we still had Michaelangelo Rampulla in the team at the age of 39?That was incredible at a club the stature of Juve.Most other teams would have discarded him eons ago but up till then he still got a place on the bench as VDS's number two.Players like him and Del Piero,Conte and Ferrara form the long-standing core of juve and we don't simply release players who get too old for regular football.

Like Andy pointed out,Inter lack a constant first team and many players which would've had a starting position are forced to take the bench to make way for Morratti's latest favourite toy.The team mainly revolves around whichever multi-million player Morratti has bought most recently and there is no consistency within the team.I felt they could be going somewhere with Cuper a season ago when they stuck with him after finishing in second place in the season when we snatched the title in that dramatic last day.You'd think that they'd have more faith in a manager who had unprecedented success in Spain and led them to two successive 2nd place finishes.

In the most predictable fashion Inter snapped up the hottest new manager in Italy(Roberto Mancini) and got rid of underachieving players like Cannavaro,replaced with a hyped up Burdisso.

This season probably will spark off another transfer frenzy,as well as getting another manager after giving Mancini the boot(Probably Zeman:rolleyes:)No chance of Morratti learning anything from his mistakes.
 

Nicole

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2004
7,561
#53
It could be argued that Juve are that consistent because, they care about winning, not else matters, and alot of the time in can sacrifice things like good football
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#55
Andy, I think a great deal of the problem is looking for the silver bullet, it's such a predictable and popular preoccupation and when you really believe one thing will solve all your problems, that's when you know you'll never escape them. Sure Inter should have more faith in their transfers but that alone won't being them a scudetto. I think there are lots of factors that play a part and even if you have all of that, chances are you still need a good portion of luck, recall the swimming pool in Perugia '99.

Speaking of transfers, there is a time and place for every player to make their mark and you can't keep them around forever if they're not performing. It was a mistake to hand over Cannavaro for free but it's not like Inter had much use for him, he was there for 2 years and he just wasn't good. Of course you could argue it's because their defence is a shambles but if you have a strategy you should at least stick to it for a certain amount of time. And Cannavaro didn't help at all.

But to me the biggest mistake is changing the coach all the time. If you know you're working for a club that has had about 15 coaches in 11 years, you're very aware that there's no continuity. And regardless of transfers even, I believe a coach needs time to get results. Yes, Lippi did it in his first season at Juve and Capello might too but those are exceptions. Ancelotti failed miserably in his first season at Milan but keeping him around proved worthwhile.
 

K10

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,698
#56
++ [ originally posted by Martin ] ++
Andy, I think a great deal of the problem is looking for the silver bullet, it's such a predictable and popular preoccupation and when you really believe one thing will solve all your problems, that's when you know you'll never escape them. Sure Inter should have more faith in their transfers but that alone won't being them a scudetto. I think there are lots of factors that play a part and even if you have all of that, chances are you still need a good portion of luck, recall the swimming pool in Perugia '99.

Speaking of transfers, there is a time and place for every player to make their mark and you can't keep them around forever if they're not performing. It was a mistake to hand over Cannavaro for free but it's not like Inter had much use for him, he was there for 2 years and he just wasn't good. Of course you could argue it's because their defence is a shambles but if you have a strategy you should at least stick to it for a certain amount of time. And Cannavaro didn't help at all.

But to me the biggest mistake is changing the coach all the time. If you know you're working for a club that has had about 15 coaches in 11 years, you're very aware that there's no continuity. And regardless of transfers even, I believe a coach needs time to get results. Yes, Lippi did it in his first season at Juve and Capello might too but those are exceptions. Ancelotti failed miserably in his first season at Milan but keeping him around proved worthwhile.
I don't mean to be a pest but I would just like to pinpoint that Perugia also had to play in that same "swimming pool" if you catch my drift.

The person who said Lazio should have chosen Juventus as a role model instead of Inter Milan, that was a very true statement.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,908
#57
++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
I don't mean to be a pest but I would just like to pinpoint that Perugia also had to play in that same "swimming pool" if you catch my drift.
Of course but it's hardly the ideal circumstances for playing the season decider, is it? I'm not saying it was partial to Perugia, it wasn't fair to either club IMO.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
107,493
#58
Martin, I am not sure if you understood my point; I was conveying that problems are caused by too many transfers and the lack of team unity.

I concur with you in saying that the repeated changing of the managerial post will certainly not bring stability. But the state of the club is also compounded with the greedy actions clubs take on the transfer market. Sure, some coaches are able to win with a team whose starting lineup is eleven different players from the last season. But this is not always the case, as seen with Inter. Hector Cuper was a brilliant coach for Valencia, and was given two years to work with at Inter, but he too failed. Why did Cuper have such a difficult time at Inter? Well, I must state that the problem lies with the cyclical transfer program conducted by Moratti and his suboardinates. The lack of a base squad and important veterans for Inter leave the club without a backbone. Players come, sit on the bench for a season, and are replaced by more "high profile" footballers; this does not leave the notion that players are respected. Haphazard transfer decisions, like bringing in a player like Sinisa Mihajlovic for a Fabio Cannavaro, might be the fault of Mancini, but the blame should rest on the shoulders of the higher ups.

So what I am saying, in short, is that transfer policies make or break clubs these days. If you have the money, and spend it recklessly, then you will in turn have a problem with keeping the morale of the team high. Buy more than you can afford, you might have a problem on the pitch, and also a problem with paying the bills, and creating debt. Therefore, in the case of Inter, the disgraceful decade that they have had to endur is because of poor management, which stems from Moratti himself. There is so little coaches and players can do sometimes, and have to deal with a ruthless dictator at the helm of the procedings.
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#59
come to think of it,it would probably be for inter's good if they actually had less money than they do.it'd prevent them from buying half a team every year and probably keep them from hiring and paying off a world class coach every year.
 

Nicole

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2004
7,561
#60
++ [ originally posted by Desmond ] ++
come to think of it,it would probably be for inter's good if they actually had less money than they do.it'd prevent them from buying half a team every year and probably keep them from hiring and paying off a world class coach every year.
That would be true, but the same will happen next year, you cant teach and old dog new tricks, Moretti should quit, he is the reason Inter arent winning!
 

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