Re: Ronaldo, Zidane (5 Viewers)

[Evelyn8]

++ [ originally posted by dpforever ] ++
I agree that Ronaldo and ZZ's circumstances were difficult .. but the least they could do was thank the fans - not necessarily face to face - I mean at least say nice words to the club that once supported you .. All Ronaldo did was attack Inter - players, staff, and fans !! Why should we respect him as a player anymore ??


P.S. Inzaghi DID bid farewell to the fans in the Delle Alpi before he left .. it was emotional

I agree with 4ever

But for me.
The reason for viewing them diffrently is not the bidding farewell.
That is just the effect of the cause

The cause is that they are so keen on leaving
They just on the bidding club's side before they have moved

And that is where the loyality problem lies.
A Real Loyal lets say Atalanta has a new star he wants to leave to a bigger club Parma, INter and Juve are interested.

The Loyal player doesn't comment to the press saying I would rather move to Inter then Parma bla bla bla......
(Like Eriberto)

He lets the club deal with the negioations and sell him to the highest bidder as long as the club meets his inicial request (Bigger club).

In Zidane and Ronaldo's case. They don't give their current club (The Selling Club) the upper hand.
They switch sides
before the switch teams.
(This is the best way I can describe it)

So they do everything to make the situation at the current club as unbearable as possible so the club is left with an MUST SELL ultimatum.
If they don't the situation will be so unbearable in the club that it will only affect them negativly.

Thus the buyer gets the upper hand.

Just look at the Inzaghi Transfer Juve got out every penny they possibly could out of Inzaghi.'
Because they knew they could always rip up negioations and just keep him.

 

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[Martin]

It depends a lot on the circumstances, the situation between the player and the club. Take Inzaghi, he didn't have much choice, he was sent to Milan but at least he was in a position to choose where he wanted to go. Brighi had no choice at all. So in that sense many many (if not most) players are shuffled back and forth at the clubs' convenience.

On the other hand you have certain players who are in a position strong enough to decide their own future, put their club under pressure to move out or to get an improved contract. It's a power struggle and the question is do you want the clubs to maintain power over the players or vice versa.

However from the fans' point of view another (possibly) all important factor comes into play. I'm sure that most of you here would claim that if you played for Juve, you would never want to leave. Maybe that's accurate. But what if you had the chance to sign for Milan but no Juve? Then after 5 years Milan fans would show their contempt for you for moving to Juve. Because from a fans' point of view, there is no reason why any player would ever find a reason to leave. Once you're with Juve, you have to want to stay. Forever. But not all players want to stay. Some want a change of environment, some want to win things they never have at their present club.

As for the upper hand argument, I don't buy it. Because once a player says he wants to leave, that's not the end of the story. It's not a done deal. The selling club wants as much as they can get, the buyer wants a good deal. Keep in mind we are talking about world record transfer fees here... So if the player really wants to move, it's in his interest to lower the fee so that his move will go through. On the other hand, whatever the fee, the seller can always reject. No matter how much Zidane wanted to leave, Moggi could always say no.

The problem is that some people always want to make it look like there's a winner and a loser. Ie. Zidane "betrayed" Juve, together with evil Real they plotted a scheme to cheat Juve out of Zizou. But the fact is that Juve did accept the tabled offer, they did pick up a good £48m. So whether or not they would prefer not to sell, the offer was too good to give up and they did sell. And if they really wanted to keep him that bad, they could always have made him stay, convinced him or just denied the transfer, then either released for free the following season or agreed on a new contract.

 

[Desmond]

the upper hand argument is a little misleading as no player is irreplaceable and definitely no club is forced to make a decision they do not agree with,much less by a player.one who says he wants to leave dosen't neccesarily mean he won't play or do anything at the club and similarly if he says he dosen't want to leave he dosen't neccesarily mean he won't agree with anything the buying club offers.the ultimate decision lies with the club he is presently at and if they say no to the player in his face he will most probably try to improve himself to tempt the buying club to put in a higher bid.so all i am saying is a player cannot decide his future by himself,although he plays a pivotal role as to which clubs would want him and whether he personally wants to go or not definitely helps the deal.

 

[denco]

Great post Alex, a case in view is the one Davids is allegedly going thru right now, apparently if Roma had made a higher bid than what they have offered then he will be a Roma player by now.

I have said it before and i will say it again, no club will sell a player if they do not want to sell that player, like Inter and Vieri last season, Milan and Sheva

The only exception is if the player is in the last year of his contract, and thats the main reason clubs sign players to long contracts

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by dpforever ] ++
I'm surprised your OK with Figo joining Real from Barca !!

It's not as if he is so good at Real. Everyone knows he doomed his career by leaving, so it's his loss really.

 

[dpforever]

I see your point ... your right, he was PERFECT at Barca

 

[Evelyn8]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
And if they really wanted to keep him that bad, they could always have made him stay, convinced him or just denied the transfer, then either released for free the following season or agreed on a new contract.

Moratti tried this all summer and did it work no.....

Valdano and PErez and Ronaldo's hourable agent just kept adding fuel the flames of the press.....

making the situation almost unbearable

then he has the stomach to scapegoat Cuper
that is just sick

 

[Evelyn8]

This upper hand dealing is just ugly buisness

And it is true
A clear cut example is Anelka
Arsenal didn't want to sell him to Real at any prize
Arsenal were stubborn and insulted by Real 'poor' manners in buisness dealing.

So they simply refused
WHat happend Anelka threatend to boycott that he wouldn't touch an Arsenal jersey for the rest of his carrear. That would forever hold Arsenal responsible for holding back his carrear etc.....
Making the situation unbearable for Arsenal forcing the directors to say
give us your best offer and we'l take it......

++ [ originally posted by Paranoia ] ++
the upper hand argument is a little misleading as no player is irreplaceable and definitely no club is forced to make a decision they do not agree with,much less by a player.one who says he wants to leave dosen't neccesarily mean he won't play or do anything at the club and similarly if he says he dosen't want to leave he dosen't neccesarily mean he won't agree with anything the buying club offers.the ultimate decision lies with the club he is presently at and if they say no to the player in his face he will most probably try to improve himself to tempt the buying club to put in a higher bid.so all i am saying is a player cannot decide his future by himself,although he plays a pivotal role as to which clubs would want him and whether he personally wants to go or not definitely helps the deal.

What you are describing is the ideal player in the ideal world.
The characters we are talking about lack such ethics and morale.

The player will instead try to play far worse for his club to make the club realize that he is useless to their cause.......

After Bosman a player has a lot of power.
The only thing which stops him from using it is Dignity.

Some players however choose to use it
Anelka, Figo, Zidane and Ronaldo.

For example Barcelona are trying to force Kluivert to sign a new contract so he doesn't leave them or else they say that he will do nothing but bench time......

 

[Evelyn8]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Again the point is totally missed, I do not support what Roanldo is supposed to have done but he is not alone in betraying his club no matter how much or little we try to sugar coat it.

Others have done it and gotten away with it, probably because they have moved to other Italian clubs and that is my point

If LAzio sold NEsta mostly against his own and the fans wishes it was because their economy needs to become clean.

Fifa can have already imposed banns they can bann them from Europena participation etc.......

This was LAzio's only solution
Nesta said he did it more for his club's sake then his own.

Ronaldo however got nurtured in INter and when R9 was to return the favour he said.....
I want to leave to Real!?!?

it is not only him and Zidane, it is Campbell
Anelka has made these transfers his trademark (ANd he has never even set his foot in ITaly)

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Evelyn8 ] ++
What you are describing is the ideal player in the ideal world.
The characters we are talking about lack such ethics and morale.

The player will instead try to play far worse for his club to make the club realize that he is useless to their cause.......

After Bosman a player has a lot of power.
The only thing which stops him from using it is Dignity.

Some players however choose to use it
Anelka, Figo, Zidane and Ronaldo.

For example Barcelona are trying to force Kluivert to sign a new contract so he doesn't leave them or else they say that he will do nothing but bench time......

As I said, it's a power struggle, in some cases the two parties find a peaceful agreement, in some cases they don't. Either way one has power over the other. I don't hear you screaming about Juve setting Athirson's career back several years after they hustled him from Flamengo only to have to give him back.

 

[denco]

Anelka cost Arsenal £500k and was sold by Arsenal for £22m,while Campbell was a free agent whos only "crime" is that he chose Arsenal who are spur's great rivals

Anyone who believes that Nesta really left Lazio for thier own good not to further his career or to win things, is very naive.

Clubs and players always behave badly but its always the players who get flak especially if the players are not liked in the first place or the club he joins are hated

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Anelka cost Arsenal £500k and was sold by Arsenal for £22m,while Campbell was a free agent whos only "crime" is that he chose Arsenal who are spur's great rivals

Anyone who believes that Nesta really left Lazio for thier own good not to further his career or to win things, is very naive.

Clubs and players always behave badly but its always the players who get flak especially if the players are not liked in the first place or the club he joins are hated

I think that people make too much of transfer dealings. Just because Figo left Barca for Real doesn't mean that he hates Barcelona or anything. IT just means that he thought that he'd be more happy in Madrid. Same for Campbell. I can't see why fans don't get over things like that.

Take myself and VDS for instance, he left Juve, eventhough he could have stayed, and he went to Fulham and not Barca or Ajax. Yet, I still support VDS, just not Fulham.

 

[denco]

I am not sure if that is an attack on me Ian, or you are just making a point, since it was my post you quoted, but i have always maintained that what players do as per moving clubs is their biz not mine.

If I like a player, then i like him, whatever club he plays for and if i do not like the player so be it.

But its annoying to me that a player is gr8 whne he plays for your club and he is disloyal or whatever when he moves

Talking about Zz and Ronaldo, ppl call them selfish, disloyal money grabbing etc but the likes of Nesta and the rest are saints because they leave for "honourable reasons".

Like hell they do, the bottom line is money, when Zz was at Juve, by far the highest paid player was Dp, now that was okay so long as Dp was producing on the field but it might have become frustrating to his team mates like pippo and Zz, when they were carrying the team but making far less than Dp was and i am pretty sure if Juve wanted to keep those players , they would have increased their salaries and not sold them for big bucks

For Ronaldo. almost the same thing apparently he was making far less than Recoba and Vieri but I am sure he was bringing more money to the club that those 2 were, even if he was not playing.


Now if a player stays at his club because they increased his salary, like the way Keane and Beckham did as they are getting close t0 £100k a week, can we consider them more loyal to those who leave to make more money at other clubs like Zz, Figo etc?

 

[Majed]

interesting point....

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
I am not sure if that is an attack on me Ian, or you are just making a point, since it was my post you quoted, but i have always maintained that what players do as per moving clubs is their biz not mine.

I am shocked that you would think I was attacking you, my friend. If I made it seem that way, I apologize. My point was just that transfers usually have nothing to do with personal preference for the city or team.