Ramadan Kareem!! (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Asma
- Start date
Including all those Jews in North Africa that Rommel was sent to hunt out? WTF are you talking about, Andries?
(Let alone Japan... some Europeans think they owned WWII...)
And I ain't even touching the debate some Jews make that Jewishness isn't exclusively a religious thing.
Better get used to it. It's more popular than the ever-popular Hitler analogy.
(Let alone Japan... some Europeans think they owned WWII...)
And I ain't even touching the debate some Jews make that Jewishness isn't exclusively a religious thing.
Better get used to it. It's more popular than the ever-popular Hitler analogy.
I will shock the others and say I agree with you, in parts that is.
I dont give it nearly as much importance to it as you do, it may be due to your deep resentment for the very notion of religion itself that perhaps clouds you a bit. But yes, religion (in this case, christianity, or better yet, the catholic church) played a role in the holocaust, albeit a distant and indirect role. Its connected, because the holocaust was about anti-semitism, and anti-semitism is EXTREMELY connected to religion. The very core foundation of anti-semitism is religion, its the air it breaths (took its first breath 2 thousand years ago, and still lingers on). I loathe to repeat myself (and I dont claim to be right, but just sharing IMO the role religion played), and not sure how to start, so I will link/quote something I said in this very topic elsewhere, if thats ok:
Link to the thread itself to get context and others (good) responses:
http://www.conniggulden.com/Forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=634&p=75540#p75540
What would be better is if you warned every person who continues to feel it is necessary for him/her to take this off the topic of Ramadan and celebrating it positively because last time I checked this was not a thread to discuss why Ramadan hurts footballers or why religion is damaging to society and is responsible for world wars, etc... I'm not Muslim but it has to be one of the most annoying things when all you see is people showing their ignorance about things they know nothing about which seems to be the norm on this forum for most people. It would be nice to have a little tolerance sometimes from the people on this forum. Let the Muslims enjoy their Ramadan, it is not like the Merry Christmas thread was bombarded with people talking about why Christmas is a dumb holiday while relating it to the downfall of society which can be argued as well.
Dude, I got my degree just two weeks ago. You can complain all you want, but I am an historian.
First of all, there are Jews in Africa. They're called falashas. More importantly though I never said religion was the only factor. But it was what got Hitler going in Germany. Things like Kristallnacht, which was a fucking pogrom (but you don't know what a pogrom is), happened at the very beginning. Come on, swag, you're not this stupid.
Oh, and:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,484510,00.html
"New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel
By Jan Friedmann
Gentleman warrior, military genius. The legend of Erwin Rommel, the German Field Marshal who outfoxed the British in North Africa, lives on. But a new TV documentary seeks to correct that image by arguing that his victories nearly brought the Holocaust to the Middle East.
If Erwin Rommel, lauded as a master military tactician even by his enemies, had managed to fight his way through North Africa, he would have sealed the fate of thousands of Jews who had fled to Palestine from the Nazi terror in Europe.
A new documentary broadcast on Germany's ZDF television channel this week seeks to correct Rommel's image as a gentleman warrior whose campaigns in North Africa weren't connected with the murderous wars of destruction Nazi Germany unleashed in Europe."
And while we're at it:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...to-bring-holocaust-to-middle-east-450304.html
'Chivalrous' Rommel wanted to bring Holocaust to Middle East
By Tony Paterson in Berlin
Friday, 25 May 2007
"Erwin Rommel's reputation as one of Nazi Germany's few chivalrous generals has been blackened by a new documentary film which depicts the legendary "Desert Fox" as an unscrupulous commander who spearheaded Hitler's attempts to take the Holocaust to the Middle East.
Rommel, the head of the German Afrika Korps who won fame for his initial successes against the British in North Africa in 1942, was widely respected during and after the Second World War. Churchill once referred to him in parliament as a "great general".
Defeated by General Bernard Montgomery's "Desert Rats" at the battle of El Alamein in Egypt the same year, Field Marshal Rommel once claimed that his military campaign against the British was a chivalrous affair and the nearest thing to "war without hate".
However, a new two-part documentary series being broadcast on Germany's ZDF television channel provides evidence that Rommel played a key role in the Nazis' drive to invade Palestine and exterminate the Jews of the Middle East.
The historian Jörg Müllner, who made the film Rommel's War with co-author Jean-Christoph Caron, yesterday dismissed as a "myth" the notion that Rommel fought a clean war in the desert. "With his victories, he was simply preparing the way for the Nazi extermination machine," he added.
Müllner and Caron's film relies on the work of recent findings by German historians to explain how in the run up to the Second World War, the Nazis, as part of their long-term aim to export the Holocaust to the Middle East, actively courted Arab nationalists who were determined to drive the Jews from the region.
They reveal how, before embarking on their campaign in the desert, Rommel's Afrika Korps soldiers were schooled with the idea that: "Anyone who fights Jewry can count on the sympathy of the Arab population" and how the greeting "Heil Rommel" became popular in Arab nationalist circles in the Middle East after the general's initial victories.
The documentary shows how, a month after Rommel's defeat of the British at Tobruk in June 1942, the Nazi SS followed Hitler's order to "destroy Jewry in the Arab World" by setting up a special " Sonderkommando" extermination unit to follow in the Afrika Korps' wake.
The unit was headed by Walther Rauff, an SS commander notorious for his role in inventing mobile gas chambers. Rauff and his SS men were empowered to carry out "executive measures on the civilian population" - the Nazi euphemism for mass murder and enslavement.
The Nazi attempt to capture the oil fields of the Middle East and exterminate the region's Jewish population were brought to an abrupt halt by the British 8th Army's defeat of Rommel's Afrika Korps at El Alamein in October 1942
Rommel was forced to withdraw the remnants of his army to Tunisia, where it sustained a bridgehead until May 1943, enabling Rauff's SS to conduct a well-organised persecution campaign against the country's Jews.
More than 2,500 Tunisian Jews died in a network of SS slave labour camps before the Germans withdrew. Rauff's men also stole silver, jewels and religious artefacts from the Tunisian Jews. Forty-three kilograms of gold were taken from the Jewish community on the island of Djerba alone.
The gold and jewels were taken by the Germans as they withdrew and were later thrown into the sea off Corsica. Divers are still searching for " Rommel's Treasure".
The documentary makers argue that the role Rommel played in supporting the Nazis' plans to export the Holocaust to the Middle East was largely forgotten after the war because of the field marshal's later alleged involvement in the July 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler. The Nazis responded by arresting Rommel and leaving him the choice of facing trial and certain execution or committing suicide. He chose the latter.
Post-war Germany capitalised on the notion of Rommel as a chivalrous Nazi commander. However records show that he ordered his non-white prisoners to be fed less than whites and that he ordered unarmed black prisoners to be needlessly shot during the making of a Nazi propaganda film in 1940. In 1970, the Germany navy named a destroyer after him."
You lose.
First of all, there are Jews in Africa. They're called falashas. More importantly though I never said religion was the only factor. But it was what got Hitler going in Germany. Things like Kristallnacht, which was a fucking pogrom (but you don't know what a pogrom is), happened at the very beginning. Come on, swag, you're not this stupid.
Oh, and:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,484510,00.html
"New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel
By Jan Friedmann
Gentleman warrior, military genius. The legend of Erwin Rommel, the German Field Marshal who outfoxed the British in North Africa, lives on. But a new TV documentary seeks to correct that image by arguing that his victories nearly brought the Holocaust to the Middle East.
If Erwin Rommel, lauded as a master military tactician even by his enemies, had managed to fight his way through North Africa, he would have sealed the fate of thousands of Jews who had fled to Palestine from the Nazi terror in Europe.
A new documentary broadcast on Germany's ZDF television channel this week seeks to correct Rommel's image as a gentleman warrior whose campaigns in North Africa weren't connected with the murderous wars of destruction Nazi Germany unleashed in Europe."
And while we're at it:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...to-bring-holocaust-to-middle-east-450304.html
'Chivalrous' Rommel wanted to bring Holocaust to Middle East
By Tony Paterson in Berlin
Friday, 25 May 2007
"Erwin Rommel's reputation as one of Nazi Germany's few chivalrous generals has been blackened by a new documentary film which depicts the legendary "Desert Fox" as an unscrupulous commander who spearheaded Hitler's attempts to take the Holocaust to the Middle East.
Rommel, the head of the German Afrika Korps who won fame for his initial successes against the British in North Africa in 1942, was widely respected during and after the Second World War. Churchill once referred to him in parliament as a "great general".
Defeated by General Bernard Montgomery's "Desert Rats" at the battle of El Alamein in Egypt the same year, Field Marshal Rommel once claimed that his military campaign against the British was a chivalrous affair and the nearest thing to "war without hate".
However, a new two-part documentary series being broadcast on Germany's ZDF television channel provides evidence that Rommel played a key role in the Nazis' drive to invade Palestine and exterminate the Jews of the Middle East.
The historian Jörg Müllner, who made the film Rommel's War with co-author Jean-Christoph Caron, yesterday dismissed as a "myth" the notion that Rommel fought a clean war in the desert. "With his victories, he was simply preparing the way for the Nazi extermination machine," he added.
Müllner and Caron's film relies on the work of recent findings by German historians to explain how in the run up to the Second World War, the Nazis, as part of their long-term aim to export the Holocaust to the Middle East, actively courted Arab nationalists who were determined to drive the Jews from the region.
They reveal how, before embarking on their campaign in the desert, Rommel's Afrika Korps soldiers were schooled with the idea that: "Anyone who fights Jewry can count on the sympathy of the Arab population" and how the greeting "Heil Rommel" became popular in Arab nationalist circles in the Middle East after the general's initial victories.
The documentary shows how, a month after Rommel's defeat of the British at Tobruk in June 1942, the Nazi SS followed Hitler's order to "destroy Jewry in the Arab World" by setting up a special " Sonderkommando" extermination unit to follow in the Afrika Korps' wake.
The unit was headed by Walther Rauff, an SS commander notorious for his role in inventing mobile gas chambers. Rauff and his SS men were empowered to carry out "executive measures on the civilian population" - the Nazi euphemism for mass murder and enslavement.
The Nazi attempt to capture the oil fields of the Middle East and exterminate the region's Jewish population were brought to an abrupt halt by the British 8th Army's defeat of Rommel's Afrika Korps at El Alamein in October 1942
Rommel was forced to withdraw the remnants of his army to Tunisia, where it sustained a bridgehead until May 1943, enabling Rauff's SS to conduct a well-organised persecution campaign against the country's Jews.
More than 2,500 Tunisian Jews died in a network of SS slave labour camps before the Germans withdrew. Rauff's men also stole silver, jewels and religious artefacts from the Tunisian Jews. Forty-three kilograms of gold were taken from the Jewish community on the island of Djerba alone.
The gold and jewels were taken by the Germans as they withdrew and were later thrown into the sea off Corsica. Divers are still searching for " Rommel's Treasure".
The documentary makers argue that the role Rommel played in supporting the Nazis' plans to export the Holocaust to the Middle East was largely forgotten after the war because of the field marshal's later alleged involvement in the July 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler. The Nazis responded by arresting Rommel and leaving him the choice of facing trial and certain execution or committing suicide. He chose the latter.
Post-war Germany capitalised on the notion of Rommel as a chivalrous Nazi commander. However records show that he ordered his non-white prisoners to be fed less than whites and that he ordered unarmed black prisoners to be needlessly shot during the making of a Nazi propaganda film in 1940. In 1970, the Germany navy named a destroyer after him."
You lose.
Look, Osman, everyone who knows the first thing about WWII and the anti-semitism in it, will agree with me. It's not even so much a war between Christians and Jews, but it definitely was a war against Jews. I find it very odd to see people claiming it wasn't as Hitler himself said it FFS. In fact, if I were a Jew I'd be extremely offended, it's like denying the existence of the Holocaust. If the fucking Holocaust wasn't about religion then what was it about? Anyone with half a brain should be able to see the connection.
And no this wasn't on topic, but Ze thought he could go ahead and laugh because the biggest war in the history of man was in no way connected to religion.. well, think again, Ze. In fact, it's pretty damn hard to find a war that is completely unrelated. The first one I can think of is WWI.
The discussion is important to me, Osman, because you can only discuss with people on a rational level if you agree on a couple of basic principles. If slaughtering Jews, because they are Jews, has nothing to do with religion according to some, I cannot discuss with those people because we aren't using the same words, hell we're not even in the same universe it seems.
And no this wasn't on topic, but Ze thought he could go ahead and laugh because the biggest war in the history of man was in no way connected to religion.. well, think again, Ze. In fact, it's pretty damn hard to find a war that is completely unrelated. The first one I can think of is WWI.
The discussion is important to me, Osman, because you can only discuss with people on a rational level if you agree on a couple of basic principles. If slaughtering Jews, because they are Jews, has nothing to do with religion according to some, I cannot discuss with those people because we aren't using the same words, hell we're not even in the same universe it seems.
Those pictures represent everything that is fundamentally WRONG with muslims.
You see, when you can't laugh about certain things you are losing all perspective. Pictures that make fun of pope Benedict would be accepted in the Christian world. Some would say they aren't classy, but no one would make a big deal about it. If muslims are so rigid that they can't allow other people to laugh with symbols that have no meaning to them, they are out of their fucking minds. Not to mention the fact that Denmark isn't exactly a muslim nation. Why should Danish people have to have respect for Mohammed if they aren't muslim?
You see, when you can't laugh about certain things you are losing all perspective. Pictures that make fun of pope Benedict would be accepted in the Christian world. Some would say they aren't classy, but no one would make a big deal about it. If muslims are so rigid that they can't allow other people to laugh with symbols that have no meaning to them, they are out of their fucking minds. Not to mention the fact that Denmark isn't exactly a muslim nation. Why should Danish people have to have respect for Mohammed if they aren't muslim?
Belgium does. We have a downright racist political party that is gaining votes because of muslim radicalism all over the globe. And if you know something about muslim radicalism and terrorism, you know that Antwerp is one of the places where it happens. Now I don't care so much about their concrete impact in Antwerp, but I do care about the fact that they are helping a political party to turn Belgium into a police state.
Well, some people find it highly annoying that one can't discuss about the Ramadan. For example: some people would find it annoying that a muslim says a professional football player plays better when fasting, when scientific evidence says the opposite. Other people find it annoying that they are forced to have a deep form of respect for everything that is Islam. Take me for example. I suddenly can't laugh with those cartoons, no I have to be an active pluralist and accept the great teachings of Islam. While I know it's bollocks. Islam isn't any better of a religion than mormonism, yet the last can be ridiculed..
Odd.
Odd.
I have yet to see anybody here besides you, Bes or the American guys ridicule Islam or any other religion, in a fun way or otherwise...Sure, the values of Islam or any other religion may not work for you, but we are all taught since when we were kids to respect other people's beliefs...that's not Muslim values or Christian morals, it is basic human decency